[Reopened Thread] You Don't Like Civ5? How to Make a Difference.

[Biz_]

i could write civ5 from scratch before i accomplished anything through these means...

just saying

 

[heliostellar]

Many people have posted some well-worded and well-thought out explanations of the problems with the game on this forum, 2K's forum, and out on the Interwebs (ie Sulla's review) and the feedback should be readily accessible to Firaxis. I personally have complained a number of times now to the company directly and they just give you the run round. I have also contacted Best Buy which refuses to take the game back (I guess they were in on the industry joke that this game is), much like the enablers... I mean the game review editors that gave this thing such glowing reviews. Complaining to the FCC, FTC, or BBB is going to get you nowhere. There is no constitutional right to good video games, unfortunately. However, if you would like to start a nascent political movement with me to create such a right (ala Tea Party), we'll see if we can get some gaming legends elected to the US Senate to that end. PM me.

I honestly think that whatever vision that the devs started out with, they really believed that it was a good thing. Obviously they didn't involve enough of the hardcore community and that's why this game is such a mess. I'm really not sure why they didn't go that extra step. Sure, casual gamers may pick up the game and play it a little while, but did they really think by expanding to that market that they were going to get more people who would buy their crappy DLC and exp in the future? We would have been the market to keep feeding them money long after the launch had the game been good enough.

I think the best we can do at this point is hope it just dies a quick death, wait a few years, hope for a Renaissance at Firaxis, or for the franchise to be sold to another company that has a better design philosophy in mind for the next version. Unfortunately, I think this game is too far gone to be saved.

 

[Enkidu_Warrior]

I received the game for a gift last week, planning to spend a long weekend playing. I never buy new releases anymore, because of the inevitable patching, but when I heard that there was a patch already, I was happy with the gift.

Unfortunately, the game is not just bad, it's unprofessional. It's not even up to the standard of the better (free) flash games on the web.

But, despite this, I won't be complaining to Firaxis or 2K or the FCC or the BBB. Instead, I'll do two different things:

1) I won't buy any more of their games. Not expansion packs, not new civ titles and not other titles.

2) And, I'll tell everyone I know how poorly done this was. I'll make sure no one buys me another bum gift from these guys, and hopefully they won't waste any more of their hard-earned money buying for themselves either.

I've been a huge fan of civ since 3, and since I'm stuck with the game, you'll probably see me lurking the boards hoping for a rescue. But I'm sooo disappointed... I'm not angry, I'm over it. I haven't gone from love to hate, but to apathy. I'm done with putting money behind the Civ franchise.

The fact is, if they can't see the lack of activity, and the largely negative commentary about the game on this, one of their biggest community sites, no amount of phone calls or letters will make a difference.

They've buried themselves in a huge hole, and it's up to them to see it and dig themselves out.

 

[ash88]

While the Federal Communications Commission may sound like a good place to vent, what with the whole "communications" thing, I suspect you may mean the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC handles complaints about false advertising, consumer fraud, and suchlike.

You know, I proof read that post about a 10 times - and it was even had it worked on by some other people. But you are absolutely right. I am going to edit the initial post accordingly.

Thanks mate.

 

[Stretchy Man]

I watched a James Cameron movie once and despite the movie studio and many reviewers saying it was great, it was a steaming pile of poo. Never again! Do you think I can get my money back?

 

[cman2010]

I watched a James Cameron movie once and despite the movie studio and many reviewers saying it was great, it was a steaming pile of poo. Never again! Do you think I can get my money back?

according to the op yeah you should and you should call the bbb on them as well and file a compaint with the ffc. This is beyond crazy.

 

[Thormodr]

Good thread and quite constructive.

 

[ash88]

I watched a James Cameron movie once and despite the movie studio and many reviewers saying it was great, it was a steaming pile of poo. Never again! Do you think I can get my money back?

It's hard to compare apples to apples in this - so let me ask you some other questions to show you that, if you are serious, you can make a difference.

You have a dinner at a restaurant. The restaurant is usually good, but this time you don't like your meal, for whatever reason. You talk to your waiter. Is it reasonable that the waiter either doesn't charge you, or does something else to show their appreciation for your business?

You buy a new Ford truck. It rattles and makes all kinds of noise. You take it in for service - a few times - but it still isn't working like it should be. Do you just continue to take it in time after time a wait for it to be fixed or do you talk to them about how this is annoying and let them respond?

You buy some milk at the corner store. You get it home and realize it is bad. Do you just throw it out and buy more milk, or do you take it to the corner store and let them respond?

The software industry (partly because it is so young) has bred this idea that we, as consumers, have no option but to take what they give us. So the options are to start to hold them accountable, or suck it up. Some people choose to suck it up and there is nothing wrong with that. I started this thread to give people the tools to respond if they want to.

The BBB is a resource, but it isn't the first one you can engage. Companies do respond to their customers - directly.

So naysaying aside, approaching companies when you are dissatisfied works. Approaching them through the BBB also works. Software providers aren't above the rules of consumer advocacy - the problem is that consumers don't know they can be effective advocates.

What blows my mind is that people take all this time to complain in a forum like this one which is near-fruitless, and then complain about how much time it will take to actually do something productive like open a dialog with the company.

Cheers

 

[Misotu]

I'm glad to see that this thread has been reopened. In case anyone is interested, the contact details for the 2k European office are as follows:
email take2@europesupport.com or, in the UK, call 0870 1242222 (8am-10pm). Unfortunately 0870 numbers are charged at national rates within the UK and I am not sure if people outside the UK can call 0870 numbers successfully, so I think the email address is the best bet

 

[trueblue]

This will not wash in the UK, they will tell you where to go. I wonder what the folks in Dundee would say!


As for the restaurant example above, if the foods awful i dont eat it and then dont pay for it and walk out.

Cars come with guarantees. It breaks, i take it back to the garage. if it breaks enough ill huff n puff enough until i get a replacement. standing in a show room shouting off out to do that.

If i buy bad milk that is off then ill take it back to the shop and get a replacement. no questions asked. thats if i can be bothered going back for the price of a pint of milk, but maybe ive bought a four pinter.. mmhmm

If i watch a movie thats terrible, take the JC movie about those blue people for an example, then its down to my opinion, lots of foklks loved that movie.

i agree teh software industry probaly needs a lot more regualtions, and promotion, for its on sake.

 

[trueblue]

This will not wash in the UK, they will tell you where to go. I wonder what the folks in Dundee would say!


As for the restaurant example above, if the foods awful i dont eat it and then dont pay for it and walk out.

Cars come with guarantees. It breaks, i take it back to the garage. if it breaks enough ill huff n puff enough until i get a replacement. standing in a show room shouting off out to do that.

If i buy bad milk that is off then ill take it back to the shop and get a replacement. no questions asked. thats if i can be bothered going back for the price of a pint of milk, but maybe ive bought a four pinter.. mmhmm

If i watch a movie thats terrible, take the JC movie about those blue people for an example, then its down to my opinion, lots of foklks loved that movie.

i agree teh software industry probaly needs a lot more regualtions, and promotion, for its on sake.

im not sure what im going to say. maybe its that wither you have been ripped off or not is your own personal opinion.






but someone else hit the nail on the head. they dont give a flying funk. hitting their bottom line is the only weapon you have.

 

[ash88]

What is odd to me is how people who don't seem to know that this works are trumpeting that it doesn't work. So let me give you just 1 example, from my own experience.

I purchased Spore through Steam (Valve) when it was on sale a few months back. I loaded up to play but the online part of the game didn't work (the single player worked fine).

I contacted Steam, and they said it was an EA problem. I contacted EA and they said it was a steam problem. I contacted both companies a few times, and then finally someone realized it was a problem (as more users started complaining in the Steam Forums) and they said they would work it out.

This all happened over a period of 72 Hours - so no biggie - yet.

Eventually there was a response in the thread that indicated that the problem had been identified as an EA problem and that they were working on it.

I contacted EA directly and they again indicated that this wasn't a problem on their end.

At this point I started to aggressively and politely contact both companies, documenting what was happening and proceeding to gather details in anticipation of going to the BBB.

I posted in the Steam Spore forums (its probably still there somewhere - my name there is Ash88 as well. Kudos to Steam for not taking it down) similar details about the BBB and the FTC that I posted here. A number of users used those details to contact the companies and the organizations.

I aggressively and politely called Steam and I indicated to them that since my transaction was with them my issue was with what they were providing. It wasn't my responsibility to check each member of their distribution chain - I had paid them and I was their client.

This all happened with promises of a fix that hadn't yet happened - going on a week now.

I continued to aggressively but politely post information in the Steam forum to keep all the users there in the loop. They were incredibly responsive and interested, and many even took action themselves.

I'm assuming Steam started to get irritated that I was stirring up the trouble because they began liberally deleting posts, even though none of them broke their terms of use and all of them were polite. I didn't blame them for doing this.

It was coming on 2 weeks and still no Spore. I began to contact media outlets and CC: my communication with them to every single member of the Steam staff that I had contact information for - always politely requesting that they forward it on to the person in charge of such things.

I had a list of extensions for the company, and I would daily leave messages on a number of answering machines.

After 2 weeks, and with this vast time line of the steps I took I opened a case with the Better Business Bureau.

Within 24 hours I received an email stating that I would receive a refund from Steam, and I did.

As I understand it a number of other users that found themselves in the same position also got a refund. These refunds were not publicized but they were given to those of us who were squeaky wheels.

I was always polite, even friendly, but I was aggressively persistent.

Now for $20.00 I spent a lot of time on this - but I didn't spend the time for the $20.00 - I spent the time because I didn't want other users to have to spend the time. We all benefited.

Most importantly - I will continue to use Steam and speak well of Steam because, although it took them a little to long, when push came to shove they did the right thing. That's all we can ask of any company, and Steam did it - so they have my confidence. BTW, the BBB profile of Valve (Steam) is here. It shows they have a rating of "C" and are unaccredited. You can look at their profile to see all of the different issue categories that have been discussed with the company, and you can see how they were resolved.

Now, I personally don't want to return my copy of Civ 5. However I know there are some that do. So instead of championing the cause this post simply gives people the resources to champion their own. It is effective.

Moreover - taking steps like this starts to breed accountability in the industry.

So this is one example. I picked it because it deals with Steam and a refund from them directly. After all Steam says they do not give refunds - and yet I have the credit card bill to prove it.

So if you are particularly upset about the issue with Civ5 - whether you want your money back, or just to have them acknowledge that they dropped the ball, and will do better next time, I urge you to contact them. You are their customer and pissing off enough customers hurts their bottom line.

Most importantly - listen to people that have experience and expertise - not people that just randomly tell you that it doesn't work

Cheers

 

[Sonereal]

You and I are saying the same thing. We are both saying that you should complain to the company (I think). The only difference is that if I was complaining I would then take it to the next step, which is the BBB (unless you can think of a better next step). But again, I agree with you - stop buying games from companies that don't respect their customers enough to release a finished game.

I hadn't even seen the BBB site (heard of them) until this thread.

The beautiful thing with starting to involve the BBB is that you can look at other consumers examples, and other companies ratings and stop buying from the companies with low scores and bad impressions. You can help the rest of us start to deal with these companies in this (rather odd) industry of software development by lodging your dissatisfaction with the BBB.

That is nice but is that any different from just going to a forum?

Aside from all that - lodging a complaint with the BBB doesn't cost a dime. It probably takes less then 1/2 hour of time though. So if that's a cost a person isn't willing to pay for their dissatisfaction then they aren't dissatisfied enough However, at some point in your life some company will really let you down. Maybe in another industry. If thats the case you don't need to feel powerless - just contact the company and then the BBB. It really is a painless procedure, and at least 30% of consumers received a satisfactory answer from 2K.... so at least some people think its worthwhile.

Hmm....30% is better than nothing I guess. To be fair, everything costs either money or time (which even lodging a complaint does in a very indirect way) but I have yet to be dissatisfied with a company enough to actually file a complaint and I don't think it's right to file a complaint over one game. Imagine how bad EA's rating would be if people did that for instance (though they make up for it with good games).

Still, even if I'm crappy over parts of the game (or even the entire game), I don't think going to the BBB will be anymore effective than going to a gaming forum. I think a constructive criticism of the game on a public forum like this one or other gaming sites does more harm than going through the BBB would. I never felt "powerless" about the whole affair since I know I have the power to get onto this board and tell it how I see it (terrible diplomacy and happiness). Even if I hated the whole game, I don't know why that single thing warrants going to the BBB.

Look at it this way, we all know that Blizzard is a very good company. When someone asks me "How do you know Blizzard is a good company?" I say "because I hear nothing but good things about Blizzard and their games most of the time". I don't say "I looked on the BBB's site." See what I mean?

I think the sheer negative press alone and not buying the game would do more damage than going through official channels like the ones you're suggesting. That's all.

So, I guess we agree on the general parts but disagree about the methods on how to "make a difference".

Edit: Look's like you x-posted me.

 

[Misotu]

Most importantly - listen to people that have experience and expertise - not people that just randomly tell you that it doesn't work

Absolutely. And there is no reason why people who find that the product simply does not work, despite them meeting the necessary minimum system requirements, should not receive a refund in the UK under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (see http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk for advice/template letters, also telephone advice on 08454 040506).

I know software is difficult, because the vendors/publishers will always try to suggest that it is the user's fault or the fault of some random third party supplier. But if there is a sufficient body of complaint, it becomes very difficult to make this stick and generally bona fide suppliers will refund the consumer when it is clear that a product simply doesn't work under circumstances that are no fault of the user. A game that crashes every few minutes is, arguably, not fit for purpose!

We also have an organisation called the Advertising Standards Authority, a body which works very hard to ensure that UK advertising is legal, decent, honest and truthful. If, for example, you wanted to play the Babylonians in multi-player, were promised this, paid money on that basis, and then found that Babylon does not function in multiplayer, you would clearly have cause for complaint.

I used to work in the advertising industry, producing television advertising for a major mobile phone company and I can assure you that the ASA takes truthfulness and honesty in advertising very seriously indeed!

No-one is suggesting that it's easy - it would require effort. But I have obtained refunds in other, equally difficult circumstances. Generally, persistence, firm politeness and a reasonable case will go a long way.

@Trueblue: See above I have to say I am baffled by your reference to "folks in Dundee"!

 

[charon2112]

Um, you shouldn't really encourage people to call companies and be d**k-heads just because you don't like their videogame. And those organizations you list below (BBB and FTC) aren't going to do anything just because you don't like a videogame. You better be ready to prove that the company broke the law, like stole from you or were fraudulent (neither of which apply to Civ V). The OP suggestions are really preposterous. I'm not surprised this was locked the first time. Also, the BBB is a joke, they aren't a government run organization, they are a private company and you can pay them for a good rating.

Moderator Action: Please don't use inappropriate language, you know better.

...If you are unhappy with your purchase, these are some simple things you can do. Always be courteous, but let them know of your dissatisfaction. This is a way you can possibly make an impact, to ensure that they listen and do a better job on Civ 6.

This post is strictly informative to let consumers know of other options available to them, that can be very worthwhile in letting the developers and publishers of the Civilization series know of your dissatisfaction. We all want a Civ 6 that will truly stand the test of time.

Step 1) Contact the company
The first step is to contact the company. In this case 2k Games. Be sure to leave your insults and anger out of it. Simply state that you are dissatisfied, and why, and what you expect to be done in order to be satisfied. You can reach them at 1-866-219-9839(US Only) or 1-800-638-0127(Canada Only). For further contact information see this link. Be sure to document every call, your hold times, and everything said.

Step 2) Ask to be escalated
If you don't receive an adequate resolution give them one more chance to respond reasonably. Ask to speak to the Customer Service Manager (not just a supervisor). In the case that you get a line like, "It is not our policy to" then simply ask to speak to the person that writes the company's policy. Just because a company writes some policy on a piece of paper doesn't mean that their policy is above the law of good customer relations. Also, be aggressive, but polite! Find phone numbers and call them - navigate the companies phone directory - leave messages for people even if you aren't sure if that person can directly help you. Be a squeaky wheel. Make sure that all your squeaking is done politely. Don't take no for an answer. If they say no then ask to speak to their boss. If they refuse to forward you any higher then call back and find someone who will. When you feel you have exhausted your options take the next step:

Step 3) Contact the Better Business Bureau (BBB)
The BBB is an organization that (among other things) represents consumers. If you feel like "you are just one person and they don't care" then sometimes the BBB can help. It's noteworthy that 2K Games is not registered with the BBB, and they have a rating of "F" as a company - having ignored 21 requests from the BBB at this point, resolved 10 issues, and 1 has been administratively closed (out of 32 total). You can find the details that the BBB has on 2K Games here. It is not difficult to launch a complaint, and with enough complaints a company tends to lose credibility if they continually fail to answer. Only use this as a last resort, and be prepared to fill out detailed and concrete information. Also - check out some of the other companies you buy games from, and maybe look elsewhere if a company does not have a good rating.

Blizzard Entertainment (B) (Accredited)
2K Games (F) (Unaccredited)
EA Games (A+) (Unaccredited)

Step 4) Contact the FTC (even if you live outside the US!)
If you believe that 2K has not been truthful to you through their advertising campaign then you should contact the FTC regardless of whether you do the previous steps. However, you need to have concrete examples. The FTC will launch an investigation if the amount of dollars are significant or if the issue effected enough people. It's easy to do if you don't mind being detailed in your information and are committed to giving them an honest, concrete complaint.

Now listen: you aren't going to change the gaming industry alone. Chances are you will get a refund if you refuse to let the issue go and consistently contact and recontact the company - but you may not. At the very least these are some steps to take with any gaming company that you may be dissatisfied with. If people, like you, do this every time then together there may be an impact.

*** This is an informative post only. If there are questions or comments, keep them civil. These are solely alternative options to take to improve the game we all love.

 

[ash88]

I hadn't even seen the BBB site (heard of them) until this thread. That is nice but is that any different from just going to a forum?

IMHO, the problem with forums is that anonymity is the sludge in which trolls are born. It is so easy to post some scathing review of a title - and so common - that software companies have rightfully come to expect it. I can't imagine that around the 2K offices the day before the Civ5 release everyone was patting everyone else on the back saying, "man - those hard core civ fans are going to love this! Can't wait to read the forums." No, those guys knew that they were in a no win situation. Even if god himself had crafted Civ 5 from Adam's lift rib it wouldn't matter - there would be people complaining on the forums. There is no accountability; there is no level-headed complaint. It is rabble rabble rabble mixed in with a few good posts. This cannot by the vehicle through which a company gauges the success of a product.

I don't think it's right to file a complaint over one game. Imagine how bad EA's rating would be if people did that for instance (though they make up for it with good games).

I completely understand. The software industry is so new, and so immature, that it isn't held to the same standards as any other industry. The fact is a mere 25 years ago, in 1996, we were all building personal computing software out of our basements - it was a small small community. If I got a piece of software that loaded off my tape drive right the first time I considered it a success! Now things are different - companies are charging me good money for their products, yet we still act like they are some hard-up development company just scraping by. The truth is, in order for the industry to mature some of these initial companies should fail to set the bar higher going forward. The ones that evolve to provide acceptable customer services are the ones that will succeed long term. But that's a whole other ball-o-wax.

The point is that you are right - it doesn't seem right to complain about software. But it should, and if people want to start seeing quality releases they need to realize that. After all, we are doing them a favor by buying their product, not the opposite.

Still, even if I'm crappy over parts of the game (or even the entire game), I don't think going to the BBB will be anymore effective than going to a gaming forum. I think a constructive criticism of the game on a public forum like this one or other gaming sites does more harm than going through the BBB would. I never felt "powerless" about the whole affair since I know I have the power to get onto this board and tell it how I see it (terrible diplomacy and happiness). Even if I hated the whole game, I don't know why that single thing warrants going to the BBB.

It might not make any sense for you. I respect that. I don't think its wise to complain about every single thing in your life - but for some people this is a huge disappointment, and I respect that they will complain. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't have the energy or time right now to champion this cause with 2K - but I am very happy to provide resources to those that do.

Look at it this way, we all know that Blizzard is a very good company. When someone asks me "How do you know Blizzard is a good company?" I say "because I hear nothing but good things about Blizzard and their games most of the time". I don't say "I looked on the BBB's site." See what I mean?

I do, and I agree with you completely. Word of mouth advertising is the primary advertising stream for any company, and any product. If my buddy came to me and said, "This company is awesome." I would listen to him. However, that is very different from reading something on the forums. For example, a lot of people here think that Civ5 is fine, or better. There are a lot of people here that are just trolling because it's what they enjoy doing. Inspite of the best intentions of the moderators there is no accountability on an open forum like CivFanatics.

Let me ask you a question now - which would be more impactful - your RL friend comes to you and says a company sucks, or your RL friend comes to you and says he opened a case with the BBB against the company? Also, which is more impactful: Someone on these forums saying "2k support sucks" or someone on these forums saying "After contacting 2K directly, and then opening a case with the BBB, I can tell you that this company has terrible support." It's a matter of degree I think. Nothing inherently wrong with complaining on a forum, but forum complaints are cheap and quick, and are usually evaluated as such.

So, I guess we agree on the general parts but disagree about the methods on how to "make a difference".

It seems so. At least you know about the BBB now for the next time someone really fails to deliver. It's very interesting to look over the company profiles and see the exact statistics of what people were complaining about, and how many people were satisfied with the company response.

Cheers


Just a general, undirected note: Just to reiterate one last time because we are talking about the BBB a lot, talk to 2K first. You may be surprised. If they start to get a bunch of informed consumer advocates talking to them they may step up. Going to the BBB should not be a first step.

 

[ash88]

Um, you shouldn't really encourage people to call companies and be d**k-heads just because you don't like their videogame. And those organizations you list below (BBB and FTC) aren't going to anything just because you don't like a videogame. You better be ready to prove that the company broke the law, like stole from you or were fraudulent (neither of which apply to Civ V). The OP suggestions are really preposterous. I'm not surprised this was locked the first time.

Just to be clear, I haven't encouraged anyone to call because they don't like a video game. Rather, I have provided resources to people who feel unsatisfied (for whatever reason).

You should go read over the mandates of the BBB. A company doesn't need to "break the law" in order for a consumer to ask the BBB to arbitrate.

Here is a bit about the BBB to deflate this misconception that it is some kind of legal policing body:

Link to full description.

Our Vision:
An ethical marketplace where buyers and sellers can trust each other.

Our Mission:
BBB’s mission is to be the leader in advancing marketplace trust. BBB accomplishes this mission by:

* Creating a community of trustworthy businesses
* Setting standards for marketplace trust
* Encouraging and supporting best practices
* Celebrating marketplace role models, and;
* Denouncing substandard marketplace behavior

With this in mind, perhaps a good question for Civ5 is: "Do you trust 2K?" "Has Civ5 weakened your trust in 2K?" As always, if the answer is yes and you want to do something about it then contacting 2K should be your first step.

And just for the record, the initial post was locked because it was feared that it would cause no end of trolling responses, not because the information in it was in question

As for "paying them for a good rating"... ahhh... ummm... proof or stfu?

Misinformation seems to be abundant about the BBB - a very effective consumer advocacy organization with documented, proven results on their website.

 

[trueblue]

I have to say I am baffled by your reference to "folks in Dundee"!

i hear the city of discovery often being hailed as some kind of home of programming.



keeping it UK. Tesco's would probaly take your hard copy back in the bat of an eye lid, so too asda etc.

more generaly, i think proving that some kind of human error is not causing the game to crash would be very difficuilt indeed.




maybe the answer is more pirating! seriously. and i know thats a very bad word around here. download it illegaly then if it is rubbish you know not to buy it. try before you buy, and not just a cheap demo.

 

[Sonereal]

IMHO, the problem with forums is that anonymity is the sludge in which trolls are born. It is so easy to post some scathing review of a title - and so common - that software companies have rightfully come to expect it. I can't imagine that around the 2K offices the day before the Civ5 release everyone was patting everyone else on the back saying, "man - those hard core civ fans are going to love this! Can't wait to read the forums." No, those guys knew that they were in a no win situation. Even if god himself had crafted Civ 5 from Adam's lift rib it wouldn't matter - there would be people complaining on the forums. There is no accountability; there is no level-headed complaint. It is rabble rabble rabble mixed in with a few good posts. This cannot by the vehicle through which a company gauges the success of a product.

I see what you're going for but there were the one or two scathing user reviews against Civ4 but we can easily tell that Civ4, for the most part, ended up well-received.

I completely understand. The software industry is so new, and so immature, that it isn't held to the same standards as any other industry. The fact is a mere 25 years ago, in 1996, we were all building personal computing software out of our basements - it was a small small community. If I got a piece of software that loaded off my tape drive right the first time I considered it a success! Now things are different - companies are charging me good money for their products, yet we still act like they are some hard-up development company just scraping by. The truth is, in order for the industry to mature some of these initial companies should fail to set the bar higher going forward. The ones that evolve to provide acceptable customer services are the ones that will succeed long term. But that's a whole other ball-o-wax.

The Industry already had one of those moments back in 1983 and, as a whole, the industry is trying to regulate itself or else there'll be another crash.

The point is that you are right - it doesn't seem right to complain about software. But it should, and if people want to start seeing quality releases they need to realize that. After all, we are doing them a favor by buying their product, not the opposite.

It's not just that though. I wouldn't rate the company that made my washer if they have a good history and screwed up one time on my washer. If they told me to sod off, that's different but since 2k hasn't done that AFAIK yet, I think it's dilatory to go to the BBB or official channels.

It might not make any sense for you. I respect that. I don't think its wise to complain about every single thing in your life - but for some people this is a huge disappointment, and I respect that they will complain. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't have the energy or time right now to champion this cause with 2K - but I am very happy to provide resources to those that do.

Isn't every game a huge disappointment for some people though? The thing about it is that there has only been one game that truly disappointed me on release and that was Empire Earth 3, which was so bad that that probably did warrant going through official channels and raising hell but instead, something worst happened.

People stopped buying the game and word of mouth killed it in the very month it was released.

And we can't very well apply this idea to other media, can we? If a bad show airs on Fox, I don't go directly to Fox and complain about it privately with them. I would post on their forums about how bad the show is and leave. Same with books. I don't go directly to a publisher's number and complain about a book (not that I would since I've never read a book I didn't at least liked).

I do, and I agree with you completely. Word of mouth advertising is the primary advertising stream for any company, and any product. If my buddy came to me and said, "This company is awesome." I would listen to him. However, that is very different from reading something on the forums. For example, a lot of people here think that Civ5 is fine, or better. There are a lot of people here that are just trolling because it's what they enjoy doing. Inspite of the best intentions of the moderators there is no accountability on an open forum like CivFanatics.

Tell me about it.

But, and as much as it annoys me, there are members of what I call the "Old Guard" which have huge clout in the community, or at least a lot of influence. If Kael came on tomorrow and talked about how much he liked the game, that would be a major point for the game compared to you, me, or the average poster posting that we like the game.

But quantity has a quality of its own. If there is enough public backlash, then they'll be forced to change something like they did with diplomacy mechanics.

Let me ask you a question now - which would be more impactful - your RL friend comes to you and says a company sucks, or your RL friend comes to you and says he opened a case with the BBB against the company? Also, which is more impactful: Someone on these forums saying "2k support sucks" or someone on these forums saying "After contacting 2K directly, and then opening a case with the BBB, I can tell you that this company has terrible support." It's a matter of degree I think. Nothing inherently wrong with complaining on a forum, but forum complaints are cheap and quick, and are usually evaluated as such.

That's kinda of a strawman there though. I'm sure more reasoned posters wouldn't just flat out post the subject line as "2k support sucks".

It seems so. At least you know about the BBB now for the next time someone really fails to deliver. It's very interesting to look over the company profiles and see the exact statistics of what people were complaining about, and how many people were satisfied with the company response.

Actually is. EA has far more love than what is let on I guess.

Cheers

Cheers.

Just a general, undirected note: Just to reiterate one last time because we are talking about the BBB a lot, talk to 2K first. You may be surprised. If they start to get a bunch of informed consumer advocates talking to them they may step up. Going to the BBB should not be a first step.

Agreed.

 

[charon2112]

...As for "paying them for a good rating"... ahhh... ummm... proof or stfu?

just google "BBB scam" and enjoy reading about this great "consumer protection" agency...It's a good read.

And the BBB is there for people who have truly been ripped off, not just for people who don't like a product. If I dislike a book I buy at Barnes & Noble should I call the BBB on the publisher, or berate the manager at the store...no, I shouldn't.

The advice and links you provide are good, valuable information...but not in the case of someone's opinion of a product. That protection is there for people who have really been ripped off, like if 2K shipped a bunch of empty boxes with no CD in them. A videogame is a creative product, and as such there will always be people who don't like it. But a negative opinion of a creative product is not a reason to call the FTC or BBB. There is no wrong doing, you just don't like the game.

And here's just one story about the BBB:

"My wife and I opened a bakery in Fenton, MO in June of 2010. About 4 months into the business, we received a phone call from a telemarketer from the BBB. They encouraged us to join their organization stating that we ‘qualified’ for an A rating because of our good business history. I’m sure we are an ‘A’ business, but how can our meager 4-month history ‘qualify’ us for an A rating already? We were told that for “only” $1,400 we could have an A rating and be an accredited business member of the BBB.
Are you serious? We’re a new business, so we don’t have $1,400 to buy an A rating, but even if we did, I would prefer to earn it through customer satisfaction and loyalty!"