Replay #8 4 µ m8s <3

[Apricottage]

Cool update. The tech-trade dance around Nationalism was fascinating to watch, and indeed quite educational.

I've been trying out espionage, and it does seem rather strong. Strong enough, in fact, that I'm able to pull out a tech lead despite having four cities total and two of them locked in ice and tundra. Haven't really been able to play around with too much AI manipulation, though, as I was lucky enough to have the only two people bordering me (Boudicca and Pacal) share one religion. As you can imagine, that makes diplomacy rather simple...

Now all I need to do is figure out how the hell I'm going to win this game.

 

[kovacsflo]

"3. Part of me is being perfectionist. I hate it when I notice making mistakes, that's why I play so slowly that I suffer myself from that sometimes ."

But if you are perfectionist, why don't you aim the best available date with the Persians or the Incans? Also, that would have required much less time. Actually even with these setting 240 hours seems crazy time for me. That would be all my free time in a month, so that would mean that after work I don't do anything else just play and it still would need a month.

 

[happyturtle]

So do you think it was a mistake not getting Nationalism from Roosevelt? Of course he might have started on RP sooner if you had.

I loved the screen of the French stack's casualties.

 

[RagingHordes]

"... and it still would need a month"

Worth it, imo! 'gratz, Sera, well done! Awaiting next update in this Civ write-up Revolution!

 

[Seraiel]

Cool update. The tech-trade dance around Nationalism was fascinating to watch, and indeed quite educational.

I've been trying out espionage, and it does seem rather strong. Strong enough, in fact, that I'm able to pull out a tech lead despite having four cities total and two of them locked in ice and tundra. Haven't really been able to play around with too much AI manipulation, though, as I was lucky enough to have the only two people bordering me (Boudicca and Pacal) share one religion. As you can imagine, that makes diplomacy rather simple...

Now all I need to do is figure out how the hell I'm going to win this game.

Interesting that you called it "tech-trade-dance" .

I also think that your perception of espionage is fitting quite well, it's very similar to the experience I made when discovering for myself. I only had 1/4th of the AIs GNP and still was able to stay in the tech-race without problems.

Choosing how to win a game is difficult, yes.

"3. Part of me is being perfectionist. I hate it when I notice making mistakes, that's why I play so slowly that I suffer myself from that sometimes ."

But if you are perfectionist, why don't you aim the best available date with the Persians or the Incans? Also, that would have required much less time. Actually even with these setting 240 hours seems crazy time for me. That would be all my free time in a month, so that would mean that after work I don't do anything else just play and it still would need a month.

It's 2 things flo. First, I'm being perfectionist sometimes, but I also have the aim to hold the Elite Quattromaster title sometime and you know what's needed for that title. Me choosing China ment that I had / have my wins with the strongest Civs already (mostly) and that I have to play the weaker ones now.

So do you think it was a mistake not getting Nationalism from Roosevelt? Of course he might have started on RP sooner if you had.

I loved the screen of the French stack's casualties.

I definately think that not trading PP to Roosevelt but therefor to Asoka was a mistake, anyhow, one I did not forsee. Asoka trades techs when 20% of the other AIs know, that's what Civ Illustrated guide says. Anyhow, in my game, only Asoka and me owned that tech at that time, still he traded, so it must be 20% of the total Civs ingame .

Guess this interests Kaitzilla.

"... and it still would need a month"

Worth it, imo! 'gratz, Sera, well done! Awaiting next update in this Civ write-up Revolution!

Thx . I also think 1 good game is better than 10 medium ones. I btw. havn't played Civ for 2 weeks almost now, yet I did continue the writeup, it's funny that writing could get more important than the actual playing.

Sera

 

[Apricottage]

Ultimately, I've reached the realization that winning that other game was hopeless. I only have two cities capable of any kind of production or research, and three created just because I get some extra trade routes. People were already starting to switch to Free Religion, and sooner or later someone would come for me and kill me. If I focused on just scraping by, my only real hope would be a cultural victory, and I have only two cities that could ever possibly hit legendary. Oh well, I made a good effort.

Also, this writeup can prioritize over playing in the same way that writing an article for a scholarly journal can prioritize over experimentation. Documentation is quite important.

 

[georgjorge]

I just now read these last parts and really enjoyed them! No questions this time, just noticing that your use of Peace Treaties and Ceasefires is really nice for getting huge kill ratios instead of the back-and-forth wars I sometimes experience.

Still can't wait to see how you are going to conquer this map in time, you'll probably need a huge amount of Cavalry for it. I actually thought you would turn off research/espionage after Rifling, upgrade everything and rush-buy some more troops, but you seem to want to reach other techs (Steel? Physics?) still.

 

[pomthom]

Hi!

Reading this with interest but I'm still in the BCs because I'm a slow reader and there's a lot to read

I'd like to know your thoughts on this little idea: when you had just built the Mids, tech'ed Metal Casting and built a Forge in Beijing most of your GPP were GP because of Stonehenge. But you now had the Mids contributing a bit of GE GPP and the possibility of running an Engineer.

Do you think it would have been interesting to run the Engineer in order to have a higher chance of popping a GE? Here is my chain of thought:

Scenario 1: you most likely get a GP (like you got in your run) and use it to build the shrine in Nottingham (just like you did). You get the GP faster (irrelevant obviously because the Holy City is not yours yet), a bit more raw hammers maybe and less food. OK.
Scenario 2: you pop a GE and use it to bulb most of Machinery before the Oracle is built. You then finish off Machinery and Oracle another useful tech (like CoL or Currency for ex). The big downside is obvioulsy no shrine​

Does the shrine completely outweigh a potential immediate extra tech medium term or is it reasonable to consider it? It's just that I thought about it while reading your prose and found the idea kinda slick for little investment.

But my intuition is telling me that my idea is more cute than really worthwhile
(especially knowing how Judaism-spread actually turned out on this map...)

 

[kovacsflo]

It's 2 things flo. First, I'm being perfectionist sometimes, but I also have the aim to hold the Elite Quattromaster title sometime and you know what's needed for that title. Me choosing China ment that I had / have my wins with the strongest Civs already (mostly) and that I have to play the weaker ones now.

Sera

There are a couple of financial leaders and actually ANY of them can be used for an SS victory. Also if you are mostly aim conquest or domination games, there are many good choices like Darius, Ragnar or not talking about the financial leaders (which is a huge adventage for improving your troops), you still can choose the Zulus or (what I personally don't really like) the Romans. The Egyptians can be used for both a conquest or an AP victory.

And there are some leaders especially for cultural victories like Gandhi, Pericles or Lizzy.

So I mentioned some names, but still there are a lot nations with very weak skills and it's hard to get a good result with them, like the Celts, Holy Romans, Ethiops or the Japanese.

Anyway, I don't really care about Elite QM because RotM is just a pain in the ass. On the other hand, you can have a good result from the smallest map you choose. So that's why Elite QM is just not relevant for me.

About long games/medium games: I used to make the same mistake what you are doing now. Like for example I wasted so much time on a huge/deity cultural victory which I finally managed to do, but after many and many tries. Here is the result:

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=12056|26231&show=&removeEntry[12056]=Del&addEntryChoice=26737&dsply=0

Good game, but I could reach the 1st place much earlier if I had spent my time on easier goals. Still, the above game itself needed only 23 hours, but as I mentioned, it required so many games to be aborted.

 

[Seraiel]

I just now read these last parts and really enjoyed them! No questions this time, just noticing that your use of Peace Treaties and Ceasefires is really nice for getting huge kill ratios instead of the back-and-forth wars I sometimes experience.

Still can't wait to see how you are going to conquer this map in time, you'll probably need a huge amount of Cavalry for it. I actually thought you would turn off research/espionage after Rifling, upgrade everything and rush-buy some more troops, but you seem to want to reach other techs (Steel? Physics?) still.

I thought about running US to rush more troops, I also thought about Police-State again, but when examining the prices of Cavs (Rifles are out of question because drafting is just ultimately cheap) I noticed, that my economy would only have been able to rush maybe 2 or 3 Cavs / turn, and that seemed no good choice to me when comparing against the possibility to conduct research (via REP) .

It's good that you reminded me to think of which units decided the map, because that's something interesting. What I'd like to give to you (and what you shouldn't forget imho) is the value of Spy-revolts though, because 1 Spy-Revolt > 3 additional Cavs.

Hi!

Reading this with interest but I'm still in the BCs because I'm a slow reader and there's a lot to read

I'd like to know your thoughts on this little idea: when you had just built the Mids, tech'ed Metal Casting and built a Forge in Beijing most of your GPP were GP because of Stonehenge. But you now had the Mids contributing a bit of GE GPP and the possibility of running an Engineer.

Do you think it would have been interesting to run the Engineer in order to have a higher chance of popping a GE? Here is my chain of thought:

Scenario 1: you most likely get a GP (like you got in your run) and use it to build the shrine in Nottingham (just like you did). You get the GP faster (irrelevant obviously because the Holy City is not yours yet), a bit more raw hammers maybe and less food. OK.
Scenario 2: you pop a GE and use it to bulb most of Machinery before the Oracle is built. You then finish off Machinery and Oracle another useful tech (like CoL or Currency for ex). The big downside is obvioulsy no shrine​

Does the shrine completely outweigh a potential immediate extra tech medium term or is it reasonable to consider it? It's just that I thought about it while reading your prose and found the idea kinda slick for little investment.

But my intuition is telling me that my idea is more cute than really worthwhile
(especially knowing how Judaism-spread actually turned out on this map...)

The Shrine definately has a greater Worth than the techs you mentioned, because the Shrine lasted for about 200 turns and created about 6000 in that time. I did run an Engineer iirc at that time though, because it would have allowed me to bulb Engineering, and faster road-movement would have really helped / been a strong move.

There are a couple of financial leaders and actually ANY of them can be used for an SS victory. Also if you are mostly aim conquest or domination games, there are many good choices like Darius, Ragnar or not talking about the financial leaders (which is a huge adventage for improving your troops), you still can choose the Zulus or (what I personally don't really like) the Romans. The Egyptians can be used for both a conquest or an AP victory.

And there are some leaders especially for cultural victories like Gandhi, Pericles or Lizzy.

So I mentioned some names, but still there are a lot nations with very weak skills and it's hard to get a good result with them, like the Celts, Holy Romans, Ethiops or the Japanese.

Anyway, I don't really care about Elite QM because RotM is just a pain in the ass. On the other hand, you can have a good result from the smallest map you choose. So that's why Elite QM is just not relevant for me.

About long games/medium games: I used to make the same mistake what you are doing now. Like for example I wasted so much time on a huge/deity cultural victory which I finally managed to do, but after many and many tries. Here is the result:

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=12056|26231&show=&removeEntry[12056]=Del&addEntryChoice=26737&dsply=0

Good game, but I could reach the 1st place much earlier if I had spent my time on easier goals. Still, the above game itself needed only 23 hours, but as I mentioned, it required so many games to be aborted.

I'm unfortunately not able to understand that post.

I need at least 1 victory with every leader, and preferably, it's a #1, because than I get the most points.

And I don't see any mistakes in playing the large maps and time-heavy games as I'm in no haste to become EQM, it's the way to it that I enjoy.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Great updates Seraiel! It's been nearly a week since I've been able to read your great thread.

I enjoyed the dialogue that you had for WastinTime and STW. He thinks I'm stepping on his foot. I say I didn't intend to step on his food. No doubt that is not a typo. Thanks for the humor plus all the other humorous dialogues from the other CFC members in your game.

I don't usually manipulate the AIs indirectly as you do. I'm sure a few other good players do though.

Looking forward to your next chapter in this epic story!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[pomthom]

Hi again

Finished reading now and first of all I must say how amazed I am at the time and effort you put into playing and writing up games like these. Truly impressive, I don't know how you do it!

A lot of precious tips in here, I think I've discovered at least 4!

So thanks for that.

The Shrine definately has a greater Worth than the techs you mentioned, because the Shrine lasted for about 200 turns and created about 6000 in that time.

Well obviously, but I'm not sure that's really a fair comparison.

The way things turned out, the Shrine was immensly stronger than my silly idea, and even if the spread of Judaism hadn't been as efficient (for free!) it probably still would be stronger. However )) I wasn't considering things that way and I think one could moderate the arguments for an immediate Shrine rather than a GE bulb. I'm not trying to be smart just for the sake of argument but I also want to become a great player and I think that one of the best ways to do that is to challenge (and not take for granted) what better players than me have to say about the game:

(i) As you well know having something valuable sooner in CIV is not something that can be easily estimated mathematically because it means that a lot of other events or items are reached sooner as well, which sometimes can be game-breaking (and sometimes not) ; having Currency 10-20 turns earlier can have many very profitable short term benefits! (not to mention saving the or the trading chip for it which can also snowball into interesting things)
(ii) Comparing "not building the Shrine now" with the total revenue the Shrine actually had for the entire game is a bias because nothing tells us that you woultn't have had another GProphet 30 turns later and used him to build the Shrine then.
(iii) You could have missed the Oracle (as a matter of fact you weren't really counting on it in the first place ). Increasing the likelihood of getting a GE to bulb Machinery could have been an interesting back-up plan for your early Cho-Kus (for very little investment).​

I don't mean we should get into complicated probability calculations to take into account my weird ideas, but I belive that things aren't always black or white and that the idea has its situational advantages that might or might not have been valuable in your game.

Don't get me wrong, I think you did the right play so let me ask it in a different way: what would you have done if your first GPerson hadn't been a GProphet but a GE?


Now another n00b question :

This concerns Espionage tech steals VS standard research (speaking of the Nationalism example you showcased by spreading Judaism to Asoka). I very rarely use espionage and would like to get better at it and learn how to use it effectively ; and I must say I was shocked to learn that stealing a tech through Espionage with such a distant AI was cheaper than actually researching it...

I noticed you compare "tech cost" VS "steal cost" and conclude that since researching Nationalism will cost you 5200 and stealing will cost you 3800 , that Espionage is superior.

Although that may be the case, saying 3800 << 5200 is not enough because you're not taking into account the difference between -> and -> outputs. For example if your -> conversion ratio is twice as important as your -> ratio (because you have more multipliers in your cities), you will have (very roughly) reached 2600 VS 5200 for the same invested ; so 3800 is actually more expensive in this case (emphasis on the fact that "permanent" or --such as scientists or courthouses ie. or when running 0% sliders-- should not be taken into account in such calculations). Am I thinking in an incorrect way? I hope I'm being clear enough...

Maybe it does add up but I'm curious to know the exact comparison of your Nationalism example for an AI that is so far away.


Sorry again for all the invasive questions! But I think it's already a great achievement on your part to have managed to make me think on all these things

And waiting for the next update obviously!

 

[Seraiel]

Great updates Seraiel! It's been nearly a week since I've been able to read your great thread.

I enjoyed the dialogue that you had for WastinTime and STW. He thinks I'm stepping on his foot. I say I didn't intend to step on his food. No doubt that is not a typo. Thanks for the humor plus all the other humorous dialogues from the other CFC members in your game.

I don't usually manipulate the AIs indirectly as you do. I'm sure a few other good players do though.

Looking forward to your next chapter in this epic story!

Sun Tzu Wu

Hi STW ^^

I'm very sorry to inform you, but that was a "freudian" typo .

I'd not even have recognized it, if you hadn't drawn my attention to it, and I'm almost sure, that this is the 1st typo I havn't recognized in my whole life .

Fun aside. I've been aweful at spelling in my childhood and adolescence, I had some tests in school where I was able to make up to 30 spelling and grammar-mistakes on 1 page (in my native language) .

The discussion was ment to provoke a reaction from WastinTime because I felt that he thought you were "standing on his foot" , but in the picture, it seems like it was more an accident and your answer should make that clear, the humor was intended to come from 40 units being in 1 very small city, and not from the conversation.

I know WastinTime already did make the 1st step towards conciliation in Team Kakumeika's SGOTM-thread, I try very hard to not make up stories about things that didn't happen, and what I wrote was ment to be part of the workup that you two should do.

Hi again

Finished reading now and first of all I must say how amazed I am at the time and effort you put into playing and writing up games like these. Truly impressive, I don't know how you do it!

A lot of precious tips in here, I think I've discovered at least 4!

So thanks for that.


Well obviously, but I'm not sure that's really a fair comparison.

The way things turned out, the Shrine was immensly stronger than my silly idea, and even if the spread of Judaism hadn't been as efficient (for free!) it probably still would be stronger. However )) I wasn't considering things that way and I think one could moderate the arguments for an immediate Shrine rather than a GE bulb. I'm not trying to be smart just for the sake of argument but I also want to become a great player and I think that one of the best ways to do that is to challenge (and not take for granted) what better players than me have to say about the game:

(i) As you well know having something valuable sooner in CIV is not something that can be easily estimated mathematically because it means that a lot of other events or items are reached sooner as well, which sometimes can be game-breaking (and sometimes not) ; having Currency 10-20 turns earlier can have many very profitable short term benefits! (not to mention saving the or the trading chip for it which can also snowball into interesting things)
(ii) Comparing "not building the Shrine now" with the total revenue the Shrine actually had for the entire game is a bias because nothing tells us that you woultn't have had another GProphet 30 turns later and used him to build the Shrine then.
(iii) You could have missed the Oracle (as a matter of fact you weren't really counting on it in the first place ). Increasing the likelihood of getting a GE to bulb Machinery could have been an interesting back-up plan for your early Cho-Kus (for very little investment).​

I don't mean we should get into complicated probability calculations to take into account my weird ideas, but I belive that things aren't always black or white and that the idea has its situational advantages that might or might not have been valuable in your game.

Don't get me wrong, I think you did the right play so let me ask it in a different way: what would you have done if your first GPerson hadn't been a GProphet but a GE?


Now another n00b question :

This concerns Espionage tech steals VS standard research (speaking of the Nationalism example you showcased by spreading Judaism to Asoka). I very rarely use espionage and would like to get better at it and learn how to use it effectively ; and I must say I was shocked to learn that stealing a tech through Espionage with such a distant AI was cheaper than actually researching it...

I noticed you compare "tech cost" VS "steal cost" and conclude that since researching Nationalism will cost you 5200 and stealing will cost you 3800 , that Espionage is superior.

[Smiley-ammount so large that I had to edit it out because of 30 pictures limit]

Maybe it does add up but I'm curious to know the exact comparison of your Nationalism example for an AI that is so far away.


Sorry again for all the invasive questions! But I think it's already a great achievement on your part to have managed to make me think on all these things

And waiting for the next update obviously!

Hi too

I know what you're doing pomthom, anyhow, you didn't read / understand my answer fully . I'm well aware that 6000 are / were an unfair argument, that's why I gave you an answer to your absolutely hypothetical question (I'd have saved the GE for bulbing Engineering) .

Also: You'd underestimate me, when you'd think that I wouldn't have had the same thought that you formulated when talking about conversion rates. There is a minor mistake I noticed, and that is, that you missed I was running Nationhood at that time. Nationhood gives +25% bonus in all cities, and that's as much as a Library in every city would have given. I find it not right to argue with any bonus larger than a Library, because Universities and Observatories are imho too expensive for this type of game, Libraries already are buildings that I questionated everytime when deciding if a city should get one, or not. Academies obviously are buildings that are too rare to really count, which part of is my argument for not counting the capital at all, because that's only 1/30+ cities, so what we're left with is 0% (without Nationhood) - 25% (with Nationhood) towards 0% (most cities) - 25% (some cities) in this scenario. I'd make other comparisons in a Space-Race i. e., because then, one would definately want Observatories to later build Laboratories, but I assumed that we were talking of this game, and if that shouldn't be enough, I plea for an earlier statement of mine where I said, that "Espionage is something I'd like everybody to discover himself" .

Sera

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Just want to point out something you said previously in this thread that seems to be incorrect based on my recent testing.

...

This is something really good for you:

Trebs = unnecessary units if knowing about Accuracy (and especially with playing China) .

Accuracy gives +8% to bombardement, however, iirc, those 8% don't get cut in half by Walls or Castles, so it's the spec to go for. The difference between a Catapult bombarding something, or a Treb bombarding something is almost negliable, and the difference between a Treb doing collateral and a Cho-Ko-Nu doing the same, are that the Cho-Ko-Nu has 2 less base-STR , but he has 2 Firststrikes + i. e. 25% against a Longbow through Cover, and as the Cho-Ku is even cheaper than the Treb, attacking units with Trebs is only the right choice in the situation, where one has to many Siege, and too few units to actually kill, but that'd already be a fault in playstyle.

...
S.

You stated (as in iirc) that the Accuracy promotion is not affected by Walls and Castles such that a Catapult with Accuracy always does +8% bombardment damage. In my testing, the Accuracy does only an additional 2% bombardment damage versus Castle and Walls for a total of 4% damage per turn versus 10% (2% + 8%) damage per turn.

Notice that Walls reduce bombardment damage by -50% and Castles reduce bombardment damage by -25%. Note that destroying the Walls via espionage would have a huge effect on the bombardment rate. The base bombardment rate of a Catapult with Accuracy promotion would be 16%. With just Castle and no Walls, it would be -25% for Castle only or 16% * 75% = 12%. That's three times as fast as with Castle and Walls. It is also just 2% more than the "implied claim" above of 10%.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

Hi again ^^

I corrected that mistake on one of the previous screenshots already STW .

Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

820 AD: ETA = 62T

The troops reach Paris.


835 AD: ETA = 61T



This is the 1st trade that actually wouldn't have been necessary, but due to my lack of experience I didn't know that I'd be able to finish the game without Cannons. Giving these techs to Washington had no effect on the game afaik though.



De Gaulle is still putting up noticeable resistance, anyhow, the heroes once again succeed!



Maybe you expected this:



----------------------

Draft-wars are a new era:



(Drafting Rifles = cheaper than whipping Cho-Ko-Nu's! )

As espionage is too:



(That's 3500 EPT vs 5800 BPT and that in a situation where EPT get 25% bonus over all cities while BPT would only get really pushed in the Capital. )

850 AD: ETA = 60T

Heroes are healing, Drafts continue.

860 AD: ETA = 59T

The real costs for stealing Military Tradition are even cheaper:



And the spy succeeds in the 1st try, unlocking Cavs:



Upgrading the units would be ridiculously expensive, and Washington is researching Military Tradition, therefor I plan to keep conquering De Gaulle with the medieval units, Roosevelt with the drafted Rifles and Washington shall fall to Cavs:



I also find Astronomy in a hut! (Screenshot not available. )

870 AD: ETA = 58T



It's getting hard to find enough cities for drafting. I'll post screenshots showing the gain of power later though and you'll be impressed when seeing the effect drafting had.

880 AD: ETA = 57T

I upgraded at least the CR-Maces to Rifles disregarding the cost, because I wanted to see the power of them. The heroes have slight troubles with the new weapons though:



If you ask yourself how happyturtle could die after the Pizza was conquered, of course she forgot to eat . What you see though, is a major setback, because I havn't planned for any reinforcements in the war against De Gaulle as the war against Roosevelt has to happen soon. Tours falls with a chariot from the rear guard:



890 AD: ETA = 56T

It's been a while, so I wanted to show the demographics once again:



This is mainly to show that the AIs are still very powerful. Pacal has 50% more GNP thx to GLH and Mahabodi, and even with having 2-3 times as many cities, the difference in Hammers and Food isn't too great.

900 AD: ETA = 55T

Only little time has passed, but with the power of drafting, war against Roosevelt is almost possible. The troops are gathering at his border and he smelled it:



I just wanted to make you aware of this AI-move, because I've seen AI often beg for something of minor importance like the 2 turns of Replaceable Parts in this case. Maybe I'm just paranoid and am imagining things.

This is btw. the army awaiting him:



25 Rifles in less than 100y clearly says something about the power of drafting.

Here is a screenshot from the other war-front btw.:



Showing a frightening CG3 Longbow in a Hills / Castles-city with only little siege in near range.

910 AD: ETA = 54T

Time to end this post, and time for another tech-steal:



Demonstrating the significant advantage from Espionage over normal Research again.

And only informative: I got another unlucky GS and use both to bulb Scientific Method almost completely:



-------------------------

Read more about draft-wars and see how the heroes smash De Gaulle's empire to bits and pieces in the next post. Have a good time 'til then,

Seraiel

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Hi again ^^

I corrected that mistake on one of the previous screenshots already STW .

Seraiel

That's great, but the text I quoted just before your response still hasn't been corrected as far as I can see. I edited my post after your response, so please reread it to see what I'm refering to.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

That's great, but the text I quoted just before your response still hasn't been corrected as far as I can see. I edited my post after your response, so please reread it to see what I'm refering to.

Sun Tzu Wu

Edited and corrected

 

[pomthom]

I know what you're doing pomthom

Well that makes one of us, because I certainly don't!

I'm well aware that 6000 are / were an unfair argument, that's why I gave you an answer to your absolutely hypothetical question

Well... ok. I think my phrasing in earlier posts wasn't clear and it was a silly idea in the first place so fair enough.

Also: You'd underestimate me, when you'd think that I wouldn't have had the same thought that you formulated when talking about conversion rates. There is a minor mistake I noticed, and that is, that you missed I was running Nationhood at that time. Nationhood gives +25% bonus in all cities, and that's as much as a Library in every city would have given. I find it not right to argue with any bonus larger than a Library, because Universities and Observatories are imho too expensive for this type of game, Libraries already are buildings that I questionated everytime when deciding if a city should get one, or not. Academies obviously are buildings that are too rare to really count, which part of is my argument for not counting the capital at all, because that's only 1/30+ cities, so what we're left with is 0% (without Nationhood) - 25% (with Nationhood) towards 0% (most cities) - 25% (some cities) in this scenario. I'd make other comparisons in a Space-Race i. e., because then, one would definately want Observatories to later build Laboratories, but I assumed that we were talking of this game, and if that shouldn't be enough, I plea for an earlier statement of mine where I said, that "Espionage is something I'd like everybody to discover himself" .

Hmm I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing (probably because I explained things so well again... )

I wasn't certainly not trying to prove that Espionage is evil (or more evil? ), less effective than Research, or anything. You're saying that in a fair fight, Espionage kicks the ass of Research and I agree.

But I'm not trying to make a fair comparison between Research and Espionage, I'm trying to estimate if, given the multipliers you have at your disposal (including Academies of course!) if it is still interesting to steal Nationalism from a distant Civ rather than researching it. But with Nationhood, there's no doubt that you're right it's just we were not talking about the same point in your game hence the misunderstanding on that - was referring to when you spread Juda to Asoka, a few turns before trading Nationalism for Lib + Gold.

Hope I am clearer on my arguments and intentions! I do see now that with Nationhood my arguments don't really stand, I was thinking of a pre-Nationalism point of view I guess

(I don't want to get too off-topic so if you prefer responding by PM that's OK. If you prefer not responding at all that's OK as well )

 

[happyturtle]

Why was completing Economics a mistake?

And it's not my fault I didn't eat the pizza! Someone put mushrooms on it!