Replay #8 4 µ m8s <3
- Thread starter Seraiel
- Start date
Amazing write up so far, everything has been a top read. Things are starting to get very exciting too. In some ways I hope you run into difficulties with Lincoln but I get the feeling you won't. I'm interested how you will over come your current financial woes.
Is it your true feeling that espionage is badly implemented? Or rather just another more than useful tool in the arsenal of ones empire?
Is it your true feeling that espionage is badly implemented? Or rather just another more than useful tool in the arsenal of ones empire?
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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I don't feel bad for using a feature that someone in his mindlessness implemented in a game, because it's just a game. The only things that I feel, are, that I feel sorry for espionage being so powerful, that it could change or have changed my games forever. I see no sense in running Beaker economies anymore because espionage is so much cheaper. I'm glad that espionage is something only having small effect on my games because espionage only gains its real power, that takes it from "too powerful" over "absolutely imbalanced" to "ridiculous" , "game destroying" and "fun taking" in very late game.
I play for HoF, so I take everything that's offered to me. The recent "espionage-victory" (meaning culture games that are won without anything that normal culture games usually take from the players) has proven, that espionage is in a league of its own. Everything else cannot compare. Not using espionage when playing for HoF, would be stupid. I'm hoping the HoF staff will find solutions to this. I find the role espionage i. e. plays in a spacerace absolutely ok, because there, the player researches at a speed, where the other AIs play little role, where friendly AIs / Mansa feeds onesself the techs for even less, because with AIs technical developement not mattering, a trade for a tech means getting the tech for free, the only thing that's even below espionage, so a logical reason to not use it. About the other victories, I don't know. I also have no idea how this ever could be balanced from its current state. All I hope for, is, that espionage will not destroy the games that were played without it too much, that the HoF staff will create own categories and maybe even own rules for it. I feel espionage to be a win, and a loss at the same time. It's a win, because it empowers, but it's a loss, because the powers it gives are taken from somewhere else.
Take care.
Seraiel
Qactus
Romani ite domum
I've just continued to read until turn 184. Just wanted to drop a big thank you. So much information and extremely well written!
Today's lesson for me was the paper block. Looking back that's what I already used to do in the lib race: trade philosophy, keep paper. Never knew why it worked though. The explanation that the AI simply "can't see" liberalism before paper is simple. I wonder if there are more situations down the tech tree where this can be exploited.
Today's lesson for me was the paper block. Looking back that's what I already used to do in the lib race: trade philosophy, keep paper. Never knew why it worked though. The explanation that the AI simply "can't see" liberalism before paper is simple. I wonder if there are more situations down the tech tree where this can be exploited.
Seraiel
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I feel good today, so I'm writing the next part of this writeup. I wanted to say thx again, I wouldn't have thought that so many reactions like this one:
Would happen. I've bought myself a Photobucket.com Plus membership now, so there shouldn't be any further problems with the screenshots. I'd be even more happy, if there were more questions to what I write, or more posts in general, but I'm glad the way it is, this Replay is / was named "for my mates" , and it's like that. I just wonder sometimes when i. e. looking that the clicks on the thread went up to almost 5k now, but there hasn't been a single reaction since the screens are working again. Maybe I don't understand this fully, maybe no reactions is something good, at least it's better than if there was lots of negative feedback
.
So enough of the talk:
With having Optics now, I upgraded the 2 Triremes to Caravelles and begin on circumnavigating the world. Circumnavigation is something of great importance to me and I always try to achieve it (of course not in a Pangaea sort of game, but with unit-movement being so slow in CIV, +1 movement points for ships is not too little imo) .
I also showed De Gaulles stack to you (about 25 units large) , and here is something funny, Frederick has sent a suicide commando towards France:
Things like this are always something I'm really amused about, an AI stack with no Siege, and in this example, De Gaulle even has the Chicken-Pizza. There's no way those units will conquer something, it'll be fun watching them suicide, and AIs scraping each other while we proceed on our course is something good.
Not good though, Peter instantly decided to research Education after Paper, and he's researching it really fast:
Really not too good that he's researching the tech unlocking Liberalism in that tempo. We're still 4 turns away from completing Liberalism, but to Lib -> Rifling, we'd still need Replaceable parts, but the real problem is the money!
If Peter would decide to directly go for Liberalism, he'd probably reach it in about 20 turns, maybe 19, maybe 18, something like that. Now we could research Replaceable parts first, and then finish Liberalism and it'd take us between 13 and 14 turns. That would imply being able to support the slider being at 100% though, as told previoiusly though, we can barely support 20% of the slider! That's why I want to switch to REP and stop being in Police State! Plan was to Lib -> rifling, but currently we'd be happy to reach Lib at all!
I find that we need a better picture:
Good is: We can Lib -> Economics at every time, so question is not if we'll get it, question is there a possibility for us to pick Rifling! Lib -> Economics isn't what we want, but it's not bad either, we'd get a Great Merchant, (we already have a Great Artist) , so we at least could start a Golden Age and revolute to REP (+ Mercantilism) which would solve our research problem in the future.
We're sure that Peter needs at least 18 turns, we'll get our next GP in 12 turns, and there are chances it'll become a GE, so maybe we'll be able to bulb (part of) Replaceable Parts. Let's have a look at Bejing too look at the GP-creation:
15% for a Great Engineer, 76% for a GP with which we could start a GA and 9% for another Great Artists, which unfortunately wouldn't help us at all.
Chances are good that Peter will research Economics so maybe we'll have more time to finish Replaceable Parts than the 18 turns that we think are minimum. Again good is: We have enough research power to research Replaceable parts in only 10 turns!
This brings us back to the real problem, and that is money. What happened is, that we simply had bad luck with Peter choosing to tech Education so early. We have an enormous power of research that goes along with us having such a great number of well developed cities, and there still is time. What we'd need would simply be 4000
, then we could run 100% and by that, we would not even think atm.
Now here is what's really good:
It hasn't been long ago since the AIs got Engineering. Engineering unlocks Notre Dame, and we still have Forrests, we have Stone, and we have large numbers of Workers. Notre Dame gets usually built really fast, Espionage tells us this:
De Gaulle is building something big, and it can only be that Wonder. If you're interested how you can exactly calculate how many hammers an AI has invested in something search Replay #4 for a post from Tachywaxon containing a formula by DanF. I personally simply calculate with EP / 10 = Hammers telling me that De Gaulle currently has something like 300 Hammers invested into that build. Notre Dame on these settings is 825 Hammers, so there's still time to chop, chop and chop.
There are also 2 further possibilities for us to get money, which would be selling techs and we should watch if Peter starts on the University of Sankore, as that'd be another great source of (fail)gold.
--------------------------
Let's have a look what the heroes are currently doing:
Nothing too interesting unfortunately. Lincolns military is mostly history... :
Or is it?
Before we come to that, it's time for Doshin to save the day! Sun Tzu Wu conquered the great city of Tacoma, but unfortunately, that lone Horse Archer which we encountered some posts ago decided that the chances for a Settler to reach that site have become quite small, and now he's threatening the heavily wounded STW!
Doshin knows that his chances aren't too great in this fight... But Doshin knows, that he's dealing with an american, have a look!
Amazing how he fooled that american, isn't it?
Anyhow, not everybody is as talkative as Doshin is. "Methos would agree" , wouldn't he?
I'm sure this mistake could have been prevented, but I wasn't near that city at that time, so there's nothing I could do...
--------------------------
There's a party near Washington:
What a mess... Those are troops from Peter, which want to attack Lincoln, the heroes are waiting for Peter to attack to capture the city more easily afterwards, but now Washington, who's in war with Peter has arrived...
--------------------------
I want to end this post with good news from the money front:
Question is: How did De Gaulle get so much money?
Hmm. Roosevelt built Notre Dame, that's not what we thought would happen and now we cannot easily conquer that wonder in the next war , but the advantage of Roosevelt having gotten it is that we now get his Failgold too!
That makes it a little bit easier, but still a long way to go... Will we be able to get Rifling from Liberalism? What will happen at the party near Washington, and most interesting of all, will Methos begin talking with us?
Read more about this in the following update(s) of Replay #8! Make sure you won't miss them, you'd regret it!
Seraiel
Wow, that sucks.
Would happen. I've bought myself a Photobucket.com Plus membership now, so there shouldn't be any further problems with the screenshots. I'd be even more happy, if there were more questions to what I write, or more posts in general, but I'm glad the way it is, this Replay is / was named "for my mates" , and it's like that. I just wonder sometimes when i. e. looking that the clicks on the thread went up to almost 5k now, but there hasn't been a single reaction since the screens are working again. Maybe I don't understand this fully, maybe no reactions is something good, at least it's better than if there was lots of negative feedback
.So enough of the talk:
With having Optics now, I upgraded the 2 Triremes to Caravelles and begin on circumnavigating the world. Circumnavigation is something of great importance to me and I always try to achieve it (of course not in a Pangaea sort of game, but with unit-movement being so slow in CIV, +1 movement points for ships is not too little imo) .
I also showed De Gaulles stack to you (about 25 units large) , and here is something funny, Frederick has sent a suicide commando towards France:
Things like this are always something I'm really amused about, an AI stack with no Siege, and in this example, De Gaulle even has the Chicken-Pizza. There's no way those units will conquer something, it'll be fun watching them suicide, and AIs scraping each other while we proceed on our course is something good.
Not good though, Peter instantly decided to research Education after Paper, and he's researching it really fast:
Really not too good that he's researching the tech unlocking Liberalism in that tempo. We're still 4 turns away from completing Liberalism, but to Lib -> Rifling, we'd still need Replaceable parts, but the real problem is the money!
If Peter would decide to directly go for Liberalism, he'd probably reach it in about 20 turns, maybe 19, maybe 18, something like that. Now we could research Replaceable parts first, and then finish Liberalism and it'd take us between 13 and 14 turns. That would imply being able to support the slider being at 100% though, as told previoiusly though, we can barely support 20% of the slider! That's why I want to switch to REP and stop being in Police State! Plan was to Lib -> rifling, but currently we'd be happy to reach Lib at all!
I find that we need a better picture:
Good is: We can Lib -> Economics at every time, so question is not if we'll get it, question is there a possibility for us to pick Rifling! Lib -> Economics isn't what we want, but it's not bad either, we'd get a Great Merchant, (we already have a Great Artist) , so we at least could start a Golden Age and revolute to REP (+ Mercantilism) which would solve our research problem in the future.
We're sure that Peter needs at least 18 turns, we'll get our next GP in 12 turns, and there are chances it'll become a GE, so maybe we'll be able to bulb (part of) Replaceable Parts. Let's have a look at Bejing too look at the GP-creation:
15% for a Great Engineer, 76% for a GP with which we could start a GA and 9% for another Great Artists, which unfortunately wouldn't help us at all.
Chances are good that Peter will research Economics so maybe we'll have more time to finish Replaceable Parts than the 18 turns that we think are minimum. Again good is: We have enough research power to research Replaceable parts in only 10 turns!
This brings us back to the real problem, and that is money. What happened is, that we simply had bad luck with Peter choosing to tech Education so early. We have an enormous power of research that goes along with us having such a great number of well developed cities, and there still is time. What we'd need would simply be 4000
, then we could run 100% and by that, we would not even think atm.Now here is what's really good:
It hasn't been long ago since the AIs got Engineering. Engineering unlocks Notre Dame, and we still have Forrests, we have Stone, and we have large numbers of Workers. Notre Dame gets usually built really fast, Espionage tells us this:
De Gaulle is building something big, and it can only be that Wonder. If you're interested how you can exactly calculate how many hammers an AI has invested in something search Replay #4 for a post from Tachywaxon containing a formula by DanF. I personally simply calculate with EP / 10 = Hammers telling me that De Gaulle currently has something like 300 Hammers invested into that build. Notre Dame on these settings is 825 Hammers, so there's still time to chop, chop and chop.
There are also 2 further possibilities for us to get money, which would be selling techs and we should watch if Peter starts on the University of Sankore, as that'd be another great source of (fail)gold.
--------------------------
Let's have a look what the heroes are currently doing:
Nothing too interesting unfortunately. Lincolns military is mostly history... :
Or is it?
Before we come to that, it's time for Doshin to save the day! Sun Tzu Wu conquered the great city of Tacoma, but unfortunately, that lone Horse Archer which we encountered some posts ago decided that the chances for a Settler to reach that site have become quite small, and now he's threatening the heavily wounded STW!
Doshin knows that his chances aren't too great in this fight... But Doshin knows, that he's dealing with an american, have a look!
Amazing how he fooled that american, isn't it?
Anyhow, not everybody is as talkative as Doshin is. "Methos would agree" , wouldn't he?
I'm sure this mistake could have been prevented, but I wasn't near that city at that time, so there's nothing I could do...
--------------------------
There's a party near Washington:
What a mess... Those are troops from Peter, which want to attack Lincoln, the heroes are waiting for Peter to attack to capture the city more easily afterwards, but now Washington, who's in war with Peter has arrived...
--------------------------
I want to end this post with good news from the money front:
Question is: How did De Gaulle get so much money?
Hmm. Roosevelt built Notre Dame, that's not what we thought would happen and now we cannot easily conquer that wonder in the next war , but the advantage of Roosevelt having gotten it is that we now get his Failgold too!
That makes it a little bit easier, but still a long way to go... Will we be able to get Rifling from Liberalism? What will happen at the party near Washington, and most interesting of all, will Methos begin talking with us?
Read more about this in the following update(s) of Replay #8! Make sure you won't miss them, you'd regret it!
Seraiel
I've always traded paper (because I always have it first) and hold off trading Philo, Edu. I wonder if those two techs are enough to block the AI from 'seeing' Liberalism too. Seems to work in practice. Is there a code snippet around from whomever researched this originally?
Seraiel
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Answers:
Yes, they are.
But:
With blocking Philosphy, you're only preventing the AI from choosing Liberalism, not Economics. AIs are very likely to pick Economics because of the free GM and because it enables a Civic, and once AI got Education (a route on which it is led by choosing Economics) , AI can pick Liberalism as Philosphy + Liberalism would again be only 2 techs.
I'm like 50% certain that Tachywaxon wrote the info on the 2 techs either in the Civ Illustrated usergroup or in one of the previous Replays, I morely think that it was in Civ Illustrated when we talked about AIs flavours. I started a discussion back then because I wanted to be able to predict which AI is likely to pick which tech, as I found it to be a very valuable info that I wanted to include in the "Know Your Enemy" guide.
Yes, they are.
But:
With blocking Philosphy, you're only preventing the AI from choosing Liberalism, not Economics. AIs are very likely to pick Economics because of the free GM and because it enables a Civic, and once AI got Education (a route on which it is led by choosing Economics) , AI can pick Liberalism as Philosphy + Liberalism would again be only 2 techs.
I'm like 50% certain that Tachywaxon wrote the info on the 2 techs either in the Civ Illustrated usergroup or in one of the previous Replays, I morely think that it was in Civ Illustrated when we talked about AIs flavours. I started a discussion back then because I wanted to be able to predict which AI is likely to pick which tech, as I found it to be a very valuable info that I wanted to include in the "Know Your Enemy" guide.
happyturtle
Mrs GrumpyOldCivver
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The only thing funnier than an AI stack without siege, is an AI stack of only siege. 
georgjorge
Deity Wannabe
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I knew about the trick with Espionage to spot someone building wonders, but I've never used it so far (sadly, there's no BUG interface to display that information without having to check every city)...nice play again.
I'd be interested on how you generate commerce with that huge number of cities, or more specifically, what do your workers do? Are they all chopping or also laying down some cottages in suitable city spots?
I'd be interested on how you generate commerce with that huge number of cities, or more specifically, what do your workers do? Are they all chopping or also laying down some cottages in suitable city spots?
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Another great chapter and great read! You've done it again, Seraiel. Kudos to you!
It may be time to look closer at how the AIs choose the next technology. The Civ IV source is available for all to see. Who will become the next Code Diving Guru (Code Divining Guru)?
Sun Tzu Wu
It may be time to look closer at how the AIs choose the next technology. The Civ IV source is available for all to see. Who will become the next Code Diving Guru (Code Divining Guru)?
Sun Tzu Wu
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Everything really looks alright, though I could bet that there was something at that time, but I really cannot tell what it was... Maybe you can see something which I cannot?
Spoiler :
How about that unit of Lincoln north-west of London?
Not very many cities are building military, right? Although unnecessary, it'd be nice if there were some more screenshots showing city screens
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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The only thing funnier than an AI stack without siege, is an AI stack of only siege.
I laughed honestly about this, as I know that picture. 5 Catapults all attacking a single Warrior and the Warrior killing them one after another. Brilliant happyturtle.
Bug showing how many Hammers someone has invested into a build would be awesome. It actually shouldn't be too difficult to implement, maybe we should ask in the mod-forum for this, maybe someone also could simply write a simple small program, this imo is something that's overdue as that inormation is of really great value imo.
Awesome question. I was told to show certain things, and I'm not 100% sure myself, let's find out:
City generates roughly 34 GNP surplus. Works what I regard as "good tiles" so "riverside Cottages, riverside grassland hills, special resources" .
If you ask yourself why that city is working the non-Chemistry-non-CS Workshop, have a look at the Hammers. I micro every city every time I whip it, every time it grows or everytime it starts on a new build. In this case the city just started on building a Caravelle, so the "bad" Workshop gives an extra Hammer -> good tile.
City generates roughly 11 GNP surplus.
"Special-city" . Has the "Super-Shrine" and therefor generates almost 70 GNP surplus. The plains-Cottage again is no good tile, the city is working it because this is from the same time as the last post, so in the situation where I researched Replaceable parts and thought "this is gonna get so close, I'll need every single coin of Commerce" .
Justification for working the "bad" Windmill again the extra-Hammer the city gets from it. City pays barely for itself, anyhow, Traderoutes are enough for it to do so.
City generates 6 GNP surplus, that single Cottage with the single Commerce-coin and the green hill are what I call "whip-away-tiles" , so tiles that a city can grow on and that get whipped away again, the city regrows on them, they get whipped away, a.s.o.
City also microed to work that "bad Cottage" instead of the hill, trading 1 Food + 1 Commerce against 4 Hammers (bad trade from current perspective = fail) .
"Special-City" Bureaucratic Capital. Generates roughly 124 GNP surplus. Cottages with single-Commerce-coins are "whip-away-tiles" again.
York, generating 15 GNP surplus, working every Commerce it can get, windmill + plains-Cottage are "whip-away-tiles" . City is not working Food because (see Phoenix) .
Hammer-city. Traderoutes make it pay for itself, working just as much tiles to get the extra-Hammer again, didn't see that that city would have had need for a grassland-farm as a whip-away-tile.
Phoenix. Currently working as much Commerce as possible, working double-Food (and by that stealing the Food that York should have) because Spies currently > Bank. Generating about 8 GNP of surplus because of a Village and because of working the MOAI-enhanced coast.
That's the ex-Warrior-Farm. It's connected now and serves as a Failgold-production-city. Therefor the Plains-Hill is a good tile, because it's worth 8 GNP. This city again barely pays for itself, but it generates 11 Hammers which get multiplied to 31 Hammers which get converted to 31 Gold via the Failgold-mechanic so it could be said that this city produces 31 GNP surplus.
Grassland-Farm + riverside-green-Hill = possible temporary tiles, only good tiles I see are the Food + the Dyes. Those 2 anyhow already generate a decent surplus (9 GNP on that picture) .
21 GNP surplus, tripple Gems, riverside Grassland is planned to get Cottages. So again basically Food + special Resources.
Green Cottages with 2 Coins are whip-away-tiles, 4 GNP surplus.
City without Food getting whipped 4 -> 2 mostly. Plains-Farm is temporary and only is there because it's part of an irrigation chain. This city serves as a production-city and was founded to claim the forrests in that region. It generates 3 GNP surplus and converted lots of those Forrests already in Failgold (see last post for exact numbers, think 600+ Gold) .
Green Hill + 2-coins-Cottage = "whip-away-tiles" , has a courthouse for unbelievable reasons (meaning I cannot believe this weak city was able to build one so early) , therefor 8 GNP surplus.
First city that cannot pay for itself. City is quite new still, about 1 GNP deficit, I imagined that city to be / get stronger when founding it so it disappoint(s / ed) me.
Production-city, working the relatively "bad" grassland-farm because of micro-reasons, with working it that city can grow in 1 turn instead of 2 turn. 1 GNP surplus.
City was planned as a Commerce-city because of the river but (will) serve(ed) as a production city for most of the round, double Food made it very strong. Thx to Courthouse 8 GNP surplus.
24 GNP surplus, good Commerce-city that Lincoln was so nice to build for me :> .
1 GNP deficit because it's far away from the Palace. I think this city got the Forbidden Palace later, it's not that terrific but still better than Chengdu because it has some Forrests.
Terrible city. Almost 3 GNP deficit and only 1 good tile.
Showing the cultural-pressure from De Gaulle btw., 1.5 GNP deficit, working exactly those 3 tiles which are worth working imho.
Horrible city again, has basically 2 good tiles, almost 4 GNP deficit. City has strategical value though.
Again terrible city, needed to block land, 2 GNP deficit, proved to have greater power over the cause of the round than initially expected.
Let's not talk about this city. It costs 11 GNP, is starving because there are no 1-pop-cold-whips I know of and this city gained its power with State-Property (so basically it was bad until the very end of this round) .
Analysis:
- With Currency, going broke is almost impossible (the Gold generated from 2 Traderoutes is actually enough for a city to pay for itself when running 100% Gold) .
- There are 2 great sources of Gold. Those are the Bureaucratic Capital and the Super-Shrine-city. There are only 3 (maximum 5) real Commerce-cities (tota number of cities analyzed 24) so about every 4th city is specialized to Commerce (about 1/4th) .
- Failgold-production is stretched over multiple cities (this allows Forrests to be chopped into Wonders and (partly-) build Wonders multiple-times) .
- 18 cities (about 3/4th) can barely pay for itself / generate almost no benefit.
- Courthouses make a big difference (mainly because the single-city's maintenance is very high because of the huge number of cities) .
- 1 documented micro-error.
- Special-resources are important.
- Cottages play a play a medium role.
- Specialists play almost no role.
- Small number of Libraries.
- Almost no Gold-multipliers at this time (only in "special-cities" ) .
- Building Wealth / Research plays no role.
- Latest conquered cities are economically bad and mainly serve strategic roles.
- Cities have improved tiles that serve as tiles to be whipped away ("whip-away-tiles") .
Hth.
There is a really good new article in the strategies sub-section. I think he explains in detail there how AI picks its techs and lists the complete values of techs. I'm quite sure that it'd be able to predict with an ok precision which tech which AI is likely to choose if the code / formula is in it (unsure about the last) .
Seraiel
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That is / was a scout, that later got farmed by one of those awesome Warrior-guards <3 .
Not very many cities are building military, right? Although unnecessary, it'd be nice if there were some more screenshots showing city screens
- See last post.
- 5/18 cities are building military (not counting the ones in revolution) . This is about 1/3rd of the total empire, that's not really much, but it's not that little either. Something that should be valued here imo is, that 1 city not = 1 city. London is producing troops, and that city is at least 3 cities (probably morely like 5 because of amazing power of HE + GT) .
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Indeed
There still are many forests but a lot are gone, too. On the other hand, not too many windmills have appeared.
Did I read you writing they were bad?
Mine vs Windmill exchanges 2
vs 1 
and 1 
From your whipping analysis, earlier in this thread, we can conclude that:
As long as a city will be whipped and that it has an adequate happy surplus, the windmill is the better tile.
Shanghai fits especially well to that remark. I doubt it will slow build the bank... it'll be whipped, right? And it has a comfortable happy surplus. In that case, Windmills are better. City that is size 3 fits well, too.
Of course, windmills are intensive in worker turns and the relative benefit (vs mine) is marginal, so I'm not saying you should have spammed them, already.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Indeed
There still are many forests but a lot are gone, too. On the other hand, not too many windmills have appeared.
Did I read you writing they were bad?
Mine vs Windmill exchanges 2
From your whipping analysis, earlier in this thread, we can conclude that:
As long as a city will be whipped and that it has an adequate happy surplus, the windmill is the better tile.
Seraiel said:
This tells that 1
= 1.5 in that case.Following this Math, a Mine gives 1
+ 3 = 4.5 while a Windmill gives 2 + 1 = 4 .I admit that this example is in my favour, because London is a big city.
Shanghai fits especially well to that remark. I doubt it will slow build the bank... it'll be whipped, right? And it has a comfortable happy surplus. In that case, Windmills are better.
See math above.
Freeven
Chieftain
I'm new to Civ 4. I just won my first game on Priest level today. I've been reading through the War Academy and beginner materials, trying to learn the basics of a game (I assumed) most people had left behind. I came across a link to this thread and after reading a couple of pages, I have two thoughts. One, it's nice to see that the game holds up well enough that high level players are still interested and active with it. And two, most of this thread is way over my head.
But I am enjoying it, and managing to learn things despite my ignorance. Thanks for the enormous amount of time and effort you put into the presentation. I supect I will benefit from re-reading it several times as I progress and learn enough to pick up on the things I'm missing this first time through.
But I am enjoying it, and managing to learn things despite my ignorance. Thanks for the enormous amount of time and effort you put into the presentation. I supect I will benefit from re-reading it several times as I progress and learn enough to pick up on the things I'm missing this first time through.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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I'm new to Civ 4. I just won my first game on Priest level today. I've been reading through the War Academy and beginner materials, trying to learn the basics of a game (I assumed) most people had left behind. I came across a link to this thread and after reading a couple of pages, I have two thoughts. One, it's nice to see that the game holds up well enough that high level players are still interested and active with it. And two, most of this thread is way over my head.
But I am enjoying it, and managing to learn things despite my ignorance. Thanks for the enormous amount of time and effort you put into the presentation. I supect I will benefit from re-reading it several times as I progress and learn enough to pick up on the things I'm missing this first time through.
I personally hope very strongly that it was "Prince" and not "Priest" level. I don't think to good of Priests, though that is something that changes, as I'm transforming hate towards anger towards action today.
Regarding what your first paragraph:
You seem to be a nice person. Don't forget, that you can always ask questions when they're true. This thread, though it's covering a game on Deity is not ment to discourage other players, what you should see imo is that most of the best players are here, so if you got a question towards something, ask. Most players are generally helpful and feel honored if they may give / teach something, because it shows them in a high position, and people that are standing tall generally like pulling others up to them, which is one of the best feelings I myself have experienced in life.
Reading this thread multiple times when you're still learning, probably is a good idea. If you play on Prince, I'd be very happy already if you only understood the power of chopping, the power of bureacracy and maybe something, like i. e. the power of espionage. I'm quite sure that those 3 things alone would already pull you towards Emperor.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
This tells that 1
Following this Math, a Mine gives 1
I admit that this example is in my favour, because London is a big city.
This is considering the
to conversion rate from Slavery alone.But there is also the extra commerce from the windmill and the benefit from working an extra tile earlier.
The latter is hard to factor very precisely and is what tips the scales in favour of the windmill for a city around size 10... a city that has happy surplus and that will whip again.
I admit the benefit is marginal for a size 10 city and you may have better things to do with your workers (chopping, improving lower size cities)
For a city below size 5, Windmills have a favourable
to conversion rate, compared with Mines, and allow to work more tiles earlier (= even more yields).I don't know the number for Epic&Marathon... knowing the numbers for Normal is enough for my poor memory.
Using your caps (happy & health) allows to unleash a city's potential. In a general manner, maybe you'd do better with more food improvements (incl. farms). See York, Hastings, Liverpool, Brighton, etc.
As a sidenote:
Whips are best timed according to regrowth. Whip = lost yield from whipped tiles. Earlier regrowth = minimized lost yield.
Not sure how aware you are of this.
As another:
I'm not sure you should use one of your larger cities (i.e. Nottingham) to pump missionaries. It may be better off focusing on infrastructure, growing larger, working more tiles or hiring Merchant specialists.
Same way you use "junk" cities to build spies & warriors, missionaries can be built in cities with little production.
georgjorge
Deity Wannabe
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2009
- Messages
- 921
Thank you for this great city-by-city-analysis! Showed me some new things to try out...
I see that you really are a believer in working only above-average tiles. I instinctively start spamming cottages when I feel that my tech rate is taking a plunge, so I'm interested in seeing how well your economy is going to hold up and how far (in techs) it will get you.
I see that you really are a believer in working only above-average tiles. I instinctively start spamming cottages when I feel that my tech rate is taking a plunge, so I'm interested in seeing how well your economy is going to hold up and how far (in techs) it will get you.
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