Request for a Civ4: BtS "Intermediate" Succession Game

By founding on the coast, you might have room for one more city to get the other spices, but to me, that's a filler location. In Civ4, I've found that I don't like filler locations (I think I expand too fast, C3C carry over). They drive up maintenance without really helping that much.
I agree with this in principle. If not for the concensus on putting Floodplain coastal, I think my instincts would have been to settle Floodplain where I had originally planned it.

However, with Hed.Rule and trade routes the location will be adequate, and looking far into the future, with Sids Sushi and/or Mining Inc. an extra city on continent will be very much worth it.

So all in all, both choices are pretty much equal as we stand at the moment (with Great Lighthouse and a few extra neighbors met, the extra city option might actually be stronger)
 
I am hesitant about allowing do-overs (although to be honest, no one would know if you played twice but only posted the best result). It's not so much about one person correcting their mistakes, but rather all of us always playing from the best possible position. For instance, Putchuco was the only one able to build the Stonehenge, and only on the second try. If we go with his game, we will play with this "bonus" of having the Stonehenge and not having to contend with border expansions. My view is that this will actually limit learning as border expansions will become a non-issue.

Which brings up another point. Perhaps we should not be selecting the "best" game to continue, but rather the most interesting one. This way there can be a specific challenge. Using James' game as an example, we could try to take China without Catapults (not that I'm suggesting this, but it's an idea).

I will have to agree with Lee, I didn't want to post another game to make it easier on us. I did it probably more for myself: correct my placing of ClamFish and then re-test if I really cannot build Stonehenge.

Let's not consider my 2nd try for the continuation, you guys posted some awesome games, and we really don't need this one.

That said, Lee brings up another good point:
a) what's a 'good' game (and how do we decide on it)
b) do we want to continue a good game, or one that follows a certain strategy?

BUT, I think we went high-risk so far, little defense if any at all. No Barbs attacked us, our Island turned out to be rather small, so there's no danger of being attacked early by a nutcase like Shaka.
So, were we just a bit lucky of not being attacked by 5 Axemen at the same time we researched Copper? Maybe.
 
I will have to agree with Lee, I didn't want to post another game to make it easier on us. I did it probably more for myself: correct my placing of ClamFish and then re-test if I really cannot build Stonehenge.

Let's not consider my 2nd try for the continuation, you guys posted some awesome games, and we really don't need this one.

That said, Lee brings up another good point:
a) what's a 'good' game (and how do we decide on it)
b) do we want to continue a good game, or one that follows a certain strategy?

BUT, I think we went high-risk so far, little defense if any at all. No Barbs attacked us, our Island turned out to be rather small, so there's no danger of being attacked early by a nutcase like Shaka.
So, were we just a bit lucky of not being attacked by 5 Axemen at the same time we researched Copper? Maybe.

OK, thanks for deciding that Putchuco, since we are all unsure what to do about it, you've saved some debate! Yes, that is a good point from Lee. We don't have to choose the game in which the player has made the best moves, but what matters is that they have brought the game forward in some way or another. Since we all vote, and give reasons for our vote, we can all be clear on why a game is being chosen and why not the others. Also, as we go further into this SG, we'll find that many of the saves will be good, but different - and we will need to pick one which we like, either for being interesting or following the strategy we are aiming for.

As for the defence, I always have to have at least 1 unit/city - but I have slackened when realising we are the only inabitants of our island.
 
Another thought: since we wanted to make this a BtS-specific training SG, should we focus on some BtS features as we go? I think we're going mainly with vanilla Civ features so far. I must admit this was actually the reason why I went with Bowmen. They're the UU and I tend to really roleplay my Leaders.
Thoughts?

I'm still thinking about this, especially since we're mostly playing this as a Vanilla Civ4 game. If I'm the only one with a desire to play and explore some BtS features, I'll be quiet. If not, what can we do to play BtS? Should we set ourselves certain goals? Corporations? Apostolic Palace?
 
Corporations? Apostolic Palace?

If we manage to get Beijing, then Sids Sushi is a very good alternative. If we keep it exclusive to ourselves, no AIs will benefit from the vast amounts of seafood I'm guessing are lying around on the map.

I say, corporations: yes! :)
 
If we manage to get Beijing, then Sids Sushi is a very good alternative. If we keep it exclusive to ourselves, no AIs will benefit from the vast amounts of seafood I'm guessing are lying around on the map.

I say, corporations: yes! :)

Corporations, of course!

As for AP, this might be difficult as we are isolated on our landmass. Still, if China conquest opens some more options, it can become an interesting try.

How do you feel about our Babylonians going 007 ? Being organized (cheap courthouses), we have a slight advantage on our closest neighbour. :scan:

Btw, are the votes open ?

What are we voting for this time - best game / best challange ?
 
Lurker's comment
If you're gong to play out your own saves, might I suggest using the format from the Many Leaders Game 2?


OK, I found it and checked out how this was played.
Although I like the format, especially for exploring the then new expansion, I don't think it applies here. I understand that we're more after a Succession game, rather than everybody playing their own game through.

And if it was me causing that confusion I apologize... :crazyeye:
 
Here's my two cents on the 2nd run:

Jamesds: I like your four cities, 1/2/4/6, nice size, and I especially like that you have them connected and 2 popped. Very strong score also (maybe that really is one of the stronger measurements for us). I think researching Writing so late will hurt you, if done before IW you could've Libraries in the cities while researching IW (or go for Math/Monarchy as frob suggests)

frob2900: Fantastic game in my opinion, FIVE cities and a gutsy move to ignore IW and go after Math/Monarchy. I have to agree with you now, this was the right decision. The only criticism I could possibly voice is the lack of connections between all cities, but that's something you can focus on next. This is my favorite move.

LeeT911: Very, very strong move. Gutsy move to change 'FllodPlains' away from the ocean, it has some serious benefits. But I would tend to believe that this map forces us to have virtually all cities connected to the ocean. Having harbors, possibly the GL will emphasize that even more. My 2nd favorite move though.

chopstyx: Strong capital, I always like that... ;) But the other three cities suffered for it, 1/1/2 is a bit small at this moment. Research is already suffering a bit as a result of that I guess. Are these populations results of heavy whipping? If so, you might actually recover soon, if you whipped Granaries as I would suspect.

Me: I guess I did reasonably well, but the wrong placement of ClamFish made my turn useless. I now also regret to have gone after IW; after seeing frob's game I realize we don't need that: we have copper already, Swordsmen can only be of use if someone spams you with Chariots against your Axemen and it takes an awful amount of time, during which little useful can be build. It is really a bummer that we can/have to easily decide against the UU here, having Copper really does make the Bowman obsolete. No role playing... :rolleyes:

pawelo: Another very nice move, unfortunately struck by two disasters. Maybe a tad too early with the invasion forces, I think we should wait for catapults to become available.
 
Corporations, of course!

As for AP, this might be difficult as we are isolated on our landmass. Still, if China conquest opens some more options, it can become an interesting try.

How do you feel about our Babylonians going 007 ? Being organized (cheap courthouses), we have a slight advantage on our closest neighbour. :scan:

Now we're talking... ;)

I'm just brushing up on Corporations, never really used them (correctly).
Here's a nice article I found very useful: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233508
 
Hey guys, I'm terribly sorry, but I'm going to have to ask that you continue the game without me. It's a combination of factors. I've been having problems with my internet connection at home lately, and it's been down more often than not, so I can't promise that I can keep up. Also, I toyed around with the idea of modding, and I think I screwed up my Civ installation. I need to try and fix that.

I'll still check the forums when I can from work, but you know, I'm supposed working, so other things take priority. ;)

Good luck with the game!
 
Hey guys, I'm terribly sorry, but I'm going to have to ask that you continue the game without me. It's a combination of factors. I've been having problems with my internet connection at home lately, and it's been down more often than not, so I can't promise that I can keep up. Also, I toyed around with the idea of modding, and I think I screwed up my Civ installation. I need to try and fix that.

I'll still check the forums when I can from work, but you know, I'm supposed working, so other things take priority. ;)

Good luck with the game!

Sorry to hear that, Lee.

Hope to have you back soon.
 
Now we're talking... ;)

I'm just brushing up on Corporations, never really used them (correctly).
Here's a nice article I found very useful: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233508

Wow! The article you mentionned is more than useful, it's huge.

I think our choice later on will base on what ressources do we have in hand ( well, it's like saying that our choice to take an umbrella will depend on whether it rains or not ;) ).

Hey guys, I'm terribly sorry, but I'm going to have to ask that you continue the game without me. It's a combination of factors. I've been having problems with my internet connection at home lately, and it's been down more often than not, so I can't promise that I can keep up. Also, I toyed around with the idea of modding, and I think I screwed up my Civ installation. I need to try and fix that.

I'll still check the forums when I can from work, but you know, I'm supposed working, so other things take priority.

Good luck with the game!

Sorry to hear that LeeT911.
However, it has been a pleasure to play alongside with you. I hope we will manage to do this one more time in the future ( maybe JDS-BtS-SG2 - right Jamesds ? ;) )

Anyway, good work ( btw, I should do some also :lol: ), and do not hesitate to lurk and comment on our progression :goodjob:
 
My lazyness won, and I post my feedback on this round directly quoting the fastest among us :)

Here's my two cents on the 2nd run:

Jamesds: I like your four cities, 1/2/4/6, nice size, and I especially like that you have them connected and 2 popped. Very strong score also (maybe that really is one of the stronger measurements for us). I think researching Writing so late will hurt you, if done before IW you could've Libraries in the cities while researching IW (or go for Math/Monarchy as frob suggests)

I agree on cities - they rock! Well, we have had a similar research path and our cities are placed at the same place ( though not in the same order ). Still, you managed to do much better in city pop and research so :clap:
Nice improvements done too! And you have spied our friend enough to see his research ( well, you might have done it without intention - staying @ 0% espionnage ), but still it gives us a good feedback on his situation. Very good game! :goodjob:

frob2900: Fantastic game in my opinion, FIVE cities and a gutsy move to ignore IW and go after Math/Monarchy. I have to agree with you now, this was the right decision. The only criticism I could possibly voice is the lack of connections between all cities, but that's something you can focus on next. This is my favorite move.

One small thing to add - :worship: . Your improvements could have been better - ok, it was just to say something as for the bottom line - but with four workers and a workboat on its way, it's just a matter of few turns. But, hey, as my quoting buddy said : FIVE CITIES! One more point ( although of minor importance ) is that in your game, Qin hasn't settled in the same spot - he missed his pigs spot on the eastern shore. MY VOTE GOES HERE!

LeeT911: Very, very strong move. Gutsy move to change 'FllodPlains' away from the ocean, it has some serious benefits. But I would tend to believe that this map forces us to have virtually all cities connected to the ocean. Having harbors, possibly the GL will emphasize that even more. My 2nd favorite move though.

Too bad you are leaving us Lee, your research has been top up to this point. One thing I agree with Putchuco is about the floodplains city - on an island ( and potentially with GLight - I hope everyone will include it in our plans ;) ) a coastal city at this spot seems to have a little bit more potential in the early game. Well, time will tell I guess.

chopstyx: Strong capital, I always like that... ;) But the other three cities suffered for it, 1/1/2 is a bit small at this moment. Research is already suffering a bit as a result of that I guess. Are these populations results of heavy whipping? If so, you might actually recover soon, if you whipped Granaries as I would suspect.

I like your capital - greatly improved ( not too much ) and pumping already nice prod/research combo. Too bad it suffers some unhappiness - is it due to the size or the whip ? ;) However, your remaining cities are a little bit behind, and none have already popped, which means - no pig in Akkad yet. Your military focus was very good - you are right saying that we are well inside the potential early invasion.

Me: I guess I did reasonably well, but the wrong placement of ClamFish made my turn useless. I now also regret to have gone after IW; after seeing frob's game I realize we don't need that: we have copper already, Swordsmen can only be of use if someone spams you with Chariots against your Axemen and it takes an awful amount of time, during which little useful can be build. It is really a bummer that we can/have to easily decide against the UU here, having Copper really does make the Bowman obsolete. No role playing... :rolleyes:

You're right for the fish - well, it's kind of a mistake that can really haunt you for a long time. Very nice improvements in all of your cities, nice culture too. I expect much good from your next turnsets - you seem to take good in-game decisions. :goodjob:

pawelo: Another very nice move, unfortunately struck by two disasters. Maybe a tad too early with the invasion forces, I think we should wait for catapults to become available.

Having read your reports, I find that, though some of my moves were right, I generally was a little bit too heavy on the whip during this turn, leaving my reasearch a little bit behind. I think that, going with my try we would have a chance to invade China very early, still I am not as sure that it's the best option we have. BtS AI is stronger than War AI, so I think that we should wait for cats ( which is pretty soon in frob's try :) ) and not risk our entire game on a missed opportunity ( though they seem pretty behind ).

Any thoughts everyone ?

Btw, I hope we will continue soon - weekend is on the way ;)
 
Hey everyone, sorry I wasn't here yesterday, I was away in Edinburgh, and St Andrews yesterday. Was a nice day, and I see you got some votes in, that's good! I did say we should try and have the save available by today, so well remembered. Now I'll reply to some of your posts.

Corporations, of course!

As for AP, this might be difficult as we are isolated on our landmass. Still, if China conquest opens some more options, it can become an interesting try.

How do you feel about our Babylonians going 007 ? Being organized (cheap courthouses), we have a slight advantage on our closest neighbour. :scan:

Btw, are the votes open ?

What are we voting for this time - best game / best challange ?

Yes, we are going to try the BtS features as they become available, and if it is worth trying. We might as well get some courthouses soon for espionage purposes (and also for the maintenace, since Sheep City will be upping our maintenance costs a bit).

Sure, feel free to vote, they are open now (and I see you already have ;) ). Vote for whichever game you want to continue with, for whatever reason that may be. It's your choice, your opinion. As long as you have some reason.

OK, I found it and checked out how this was played.
Although I like the format, especially for exploring the then new expansion, I don't think it applies here. I understand that we're more after a Succession game, rather than everybody playing their own game through.

And if it was me causing that confusion I apologize... :crazyeye:

Yeah, you are right - it doesn't apply for our BtS Prince Training SG, because that way the learning we made would be heavily reduced by the diverse situations we'd find ourselves. This way we are constantly comparing our games because we are able to.

Now we're talking... ;)

I'm just brushing up on Corporations, never really used them (correctly).
Here's a nice article I found very useful: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233508

Cool, thanks for the article link. I will add this, and one I found about demographics to the first post.

Hey guys, I'm terribly sorry, but I'm going to have to ask that you continue the game without me. It's a combination of factors. I've been having problems with my internet connection at home lately, and it's been down more often than not, so I can't promise that I can keep up. Also, I toyed around with the idea of modding, and I think I screwed up my Civ installation. I need to try and fix that.

I'll still check the forums when I can from work, but you know, I'm supposed working, so other things take priority. ;)

Good luck with the game!

Thanks Lee, sorry to hear you have to leave, it's been great playing with you. Look out for our sequel, and please drop by and comment when you have the time!

Sorry to hear that LeeT911.
However, it has been a pleasure to play alongside with you. I hope we will manage to do this one more time in the future ( maybe JDS-BtS-SG2 - right Jamesds ? ;) )

Yep, I like SGs, and this is going well. The next one will be similar, but maybe with more freedom (i.e. moving away from the training game and becoming more competitive) will be present. It just depends on how this goes, and currently, it is going well.
 
Right, now for what I think about all our games...I'm tempted to quote from above, but if I just quiety steal ideas then nobody will notice ;). Putchuco and Pawelo have probably mentioned everything I'm about to say, but here's my "2 cents".

Jamesds: Well, first, thanks for your comments on my game :). I think you might be right about Writing, maybe I should have researched that earlier. I didn't whip at all, and I think it has been beneficial to an extent. I've still got the granaries and barracks, just with higher population than most of your games.

frob2900: Your game is very strong. You might not have acheived as much as us improvement-wise (and I do think your defences could be better ;), but I guess not a priority at the moment) but what is key in your game is the potential you have with - and let me echo my friends above - 5 Cities!! Also 4 workers, a workboat, and researching more useful techs than archery - I feel this game could take off quite soon. I shall vote here also.

Zetetic Apparat: I think your main mistake, which you have already said to be researching Iron Working at the start, has stopped you from producing useful buildings at the beginning of the round. Sheep-city is a great city with good potential, but I think you have built it too soon - the maintenance costs have hurt your economy, and as a result you have the lowest GNP of all of us, and you have discovered relatively few techs. However, you do have 4 workers and 3 workboats ready to work and improve your cities, and that is well thought of - just a shame that a bad decision could cost you so much in the game.

chopstyx: You've got the best military here, chopstyx, which would be good for our invasion. However, you haven't discovered as much, maybe that's due to discovering Iron Working too early? You've got some well improved land and you have a nice capital, same size as mine. You've also left ClamFish a bit late, I think. I also think your cities could be better if their borders were popped sooner, but it's a solid start.

Putchuco: You made a bad mistake in your (first) try, and missed the potentials for ClamFish city. This essentially nullified your game, which is sad, because it was a very good game otherwise, with strong tech choices and good science/GNP. Your second try was excellent, but you asked us not to consider it, to avoid argument - thanks for your insight :). I'll say the same as Pawelo, that I expect good rounds from you in the future :).

Pawelo: We seem to play similar games! You have an overall great game, but it is unfortunate that 2 bad events had to strike your civ, especially when the rest of us didn't seem to get any. I think your whipping might have been too excessive, to lead to small, less productive cities. But that's how you learn, you experiment with things. You seem to have even started an army for the impending invasion, which was good foresight.

LeeT911: It's ashame you have to pull-out, Lee, because you are a strong, confident player. I think we could all learn alot from you, and you aren't afraid to try something different, by which I am referring to the radical placement of floodplain city. You've also got strong production in your cities. I think your placement has some great benefits, but I do prefer the coastal city for this game. I think that tech-wise Writing might have been better researched early like in my game, but otherwise, well done!

There - I hope I haven't been too unkind to anyone :)
 
Hey guys, are we still here?

I've been waiting for votes from Zetetic (if you are still playing), chopstyx and frob2900. But lets start on frob's game, since it does have 3 votes so far. All who haven't voted, do try and write something similar to the above 'game reviews', just to help everyone out, and to develop your critical thinking! ;)

So, frob's game for Round 3, and in by Monday 27th, OK? Play 30 turns this time. See you then!
 
Here's my next 30 turns based on frob's save game:

Spoiler :


575 BC: Discovered Mathematics

500 BC: Meditation (beelining for Monarchy)

475 BC: Both the Great Lighthouse and the Temple of Artemis get build somewhere

The wonders are starting to concern me a bit, we're playing on Prince level and haven't built one single wonder. And to make matters worse all six wonders so far have been split between two civilizations:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0210.JPG


I build a Galley (in Babylon I guess), board it with the Scout and go on a little exploration. Fortunately, I'm finding another hut and get a tech:
450 BC: Horse Riding

425 BC: Priesthood

350 BC: We're only third in technology:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0164.JPG


175 BC: Monarchy

I extended the Galley/Scout exploration over to our Chinese neighbors:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0167.JPG


Don't read the next one if you haven't played your turns yet:
Spoiler :
The Chinese have Copper and have built their first Axeman. I saw one, don't know how many they built already.


... and built the sixth city: Deer City.
I build that late, I didn't want to overextend myself and ruin our economy even further.
We need Currency quite urgently.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0171.JPG


Mathematics and Monarchy allow for the cities to grow bigger.
And I'm hoping we can pull off to build at least the Hanging Gardens in Babylon
(actually where they would kind of belong... ;) )
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0170.JPG


Here's the known world overview, notice that China has only two cities, 4 and 1, very small, if you ask me.
They might have whipped a bit too much, I don't know.
I would guess they also don't have much of an economy to build many units fast.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0166.JPG


Here's the current Tech tree.
I'm researching Construction right now for the Catapults,
but I'm tempted to go for Currency instead depending on how we want to progress.
Not too deeply invested yet, so nothing wasted. Good call to have us only play 30 turns... :king:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0168.JPG


Demographics:
We certainly made some leeway on the Population, but are behind on our Military,
although I did build a few Axes to allow for bigger growth (and prepare for a possible attack...;) )
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0169.JPG


Now is the time to decide for us:
a) Construction -> Catapults -> War with China
b) Currency -> Markets -> build the strongest economy
 

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I'd have voted for frob (which is lucky). ;)
I've managed to get work for the rest of this work (before I get back to school) and BioShock is working well enough for me to play it; so I'm out as regards playing.

I'll happily compile stats if people provide me with screenshots (or just data) of:
Demographics
Statistics (ordered by 'Current' units so that all currents units are shown)
Event Log, shown from start of round until end
Home Advisor (for city pop.)
Current tech with beakers/max. beakers.
 
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