Jamesds
Great Scientist
Thanks for submitting your game asaegyn! It looks good at a first glance.
Turn Report for 200-230
Turn Report for 200-230
Spoiler :
Request for a Civ4: BtS "Intermediate" Succession Game
- Thread starter Jamesds
- Start date
, must be Apostilic Palace vote - my economy slumps a little
) - thankfully 0 turns anarchy in GA
pigswill
fly (one day)
My game at 1600ad (T230)
Spoiler :
Jamesds
Great Scientist
I'm glad we continued our own games for longer, I can now see the benefit of having a strong vassal (colony). You've traded techs constantly to become technologically advanced. Time will tell whether it is quicker than using a booming economy to research constantly though...
Erathelix
Chieftain
My report for up to 1600AD.
Spoiler :
pigswill
fly (one day)
Erathelix: looking good. Hard to study it in detail without a save.
Erathelix
Chieftain
Thx for reminding me about the save pigswill 
Erathelix
Chieftain
Just looked at your games guys, I am really amazed that after 60 turns games can be changed so dramatically. We started at the same spot and now we have 4 completely different games.
pawelo
Emperor
Here we go for my 30 next :
Let the discussion start
Cheers!
Spoiler :
Let the discussion start
Cheers!
Jamesds
Great Scientist
Thanks for getting your games in by the deadline all. I won't be able to do any stats yet, but looking through each game will be as good (and better) than the stats - since each approach is very different and can't be properly compared using stats.
Interesting to see some already at war with Japan! I was thinking of doing some more out-teching beforehand, but maybe by then they'll be too advanced...we'll have to see.
Interesting to see some already at war with Japan! I was thinking of doing some more out-teching beforehand, but maybe by then they'll be too advanced...we'll have to see.
Erathelix
Chieftain
Anyone here?
pigswill
fly (one day)
Still here. Haven't found time to look at all the games in detail. As Jamesds has commented the games have diverged a lot making it very difficult to compare them directly; we probably won't know the best strategy for many more turns and I guess most of us are committed to the strategy we're using.
For instance I'm not worried about Japan, slow teching and unpopular. Tok will become an easier target as the game progresses (20 infantry vs 50samurai type of thing). The civs I think will pose a long term threat are Willem and George. In my game George is in fairly constant wars with either Sury or Jules and that's beginning to slow him down. My thought would be to target Willem next which is why I've been going down the privateer path.
For instance I'm not worried about Japan, slow teching and unpopular. Tok will become an easier target as the game progresses (20 infantry vs 50samurai type of thing). The civs I think will pose a long term threat are Willem and George. In my game George is in fairly constant wars with either Sury or Jules and that's beginning to slow him down. My thought would be to target Willem next which is why I've been going down the privateer path.
pawelo
Emperor
It sure is pretty quiet 
I'm @ work most of the time, can't look at any save as for now.
All I'm sure is that our games went so different, that it might be worth to comment on each other and just go on with our saves, like in a Multi Leader Game.
It's not that I like or am particularly proud of mine, but we went so many different paths that I won't be able to vote between all your games guys. Also, the choices we will make from now on, are less crucial than the early game ones. It is an unprecedential game anyway - we started from a common base and 60 turns later everyone picked so different paths. It's greatly instructive
However, if you want to continue voting, I will go along with your wish.
I'm @ work most of the time, can't look at any save as for now.
All I'm sure is that our games went so different, that it might be worth to comment on each other and just go on with our saves, like in a Multi Leader Game.
It's not that I like or am particularly proud of mine, but we went so many different paths that I won't be able to vote between all your games guys. Also, the choices we will make from now on, are less crucial than the early game ones. It is an unprecedential game anyway - we started from a common base and 60 turns later everyone picked so different paths. It's greatly instructive
However, if you want to continue voting, I will go along with your wish.
Jamesds
Great Scientist
pawelo said:All I'm sure is that our games went so different, that it might be worth to comment on each other and just go on with our saves, like in a Multi Leader Game.
It's not that I like or am particularly proud of mine, but we went so many different paths that I won't be able to vote between all your games guys. Also, the choices we will make from now on, are less crucial than the early game ones. It is an unprecedential game anyway - we started from a common base and 60 turns later everyone picked so different paths. It's greatly instructive
Excellent idea, and actually, I'd say we could do this to the end - see whose finish is the best. But we won't decide on that now, lets take it round by round. That's what's cool about this SG, no strict rules, so it can be moulded to suit whatever we want to do.
As yet, I haven't had time to look at the games either. Let's maybe continue with our games tomorrow evening. Have them in by Thursday evening. How's that?
hey guys,
i haven't had access to a Civ-able computer the past few days, so i haven't been able to look at the saves in detail, but based on the posts here are some things:
win conditions - in my mind, we have 4 achievable win conditions - domination, un (via vassals - i guess back door dom), conquest if we wanna go at it hard, or space. i'm leaning towards one of the first two myself.
****
Pawelo & Erathelix went after Japan.
*** My assessment of the Japanese is the same as pigswill's on this one - Japan has relatively poor territory and everyone hates them. They should be relatively easy to takeout whenever we desire. Although horses can be useful, i'm not sure they would last long enough to be of help in waging the next set of wars.
Aside from that, Japan at some point though, does make a good vassal, and it doesn't appear that the war has cost you guys much in terms of diverting too many shields or costing too much $$. As everyone has already noticed, they are very hard to compare...
****
****
Pigswill started making colonies. I'm not convinced that making china a colony was the best move, since with an FP on the continent, there are some very good cities available (shanghai, beijing). i think the added production from china (beijing would make a wonderful globe / draft city), will go a long way in helping us take out george, sury and julius...).
****
Jamesds and I continued building up.
We played very similarly, except for tech path. Jamesds got muskets, astronomy etc, while i delayed liberalism for democracy, and am now beelining towards assembly line.
given that we haven't been attacked, [tho this is after the fact...], i would think going after techs like printing press, democracy etc, is more advantageous than muskets...
both of our economies are doing quite well, tho my experience has been that once i get democracy and flip to free-religion and emancipation, i've passed a turning point in the game and my research goes through the roof. add in universal suffrage, and production goes way up in all my cities. tho i may have switched too soon to US in my game as representation has some benefits that i didn't exploit (would probably be best to stay in Rep until assembly to max tech, then switch to US to max hammers).
if playing for domination - for any of the saves, my plan would be to beeline to assembly get those factories built + pentagon (maybe detour to rifling if someone appears to want to attack - though this seems unlikely, sury and washington are at each others throats, toku is irrelevant, and willelm and julius can be bribed)..
once we get assembly line, start building factories and pentagon, while then teching rifling and start drafting / building infantry like crazy. this mitigates us having never had horses (in 3 of the games). and, in my experience, within 5-6 turns of such a buildup we should have enuf of a force to wipe everyone out (should roughly double anyone else's power). depending on the tech situation at that point, given the way things look now, we could pretty much shut down tech and just build military. or maybe snag steel and biology first.
washington seems like the juiciest target, tho some ppl already have divine right in some of the games, and i'm tempted to let them build versailles, and wherever that is built, i'd keep 3-4 cities, and everywhere else i'd vassalize.
as for whether you guys want to play different games or streamline onto one, i'm indifferent - either way sounds interesting. i'm curious to see if the early vassalization of china is actually advantageous. similarly, whether taking out japan, and creating a vassal there does more to expand our economy, than focusing solely on builds and waiting for assembly to completely overpower...
i haven't had access to a Civ-able computer the past few days, so i haven't been able to look at the saves in detail, but based on the posts here are some things:
win conditions - in my mind, we have 4 achievable win conditions - domination, un (via vassals - i guess back door dom), conquest if we wanna go at it hard, or space. i'm leaning towards one of the first two myself.
****
Pawelo & Erathelix went after Japan.
*** My assessment of the Japanese is the same as pigswill's on this one - Japan has relatively poor territory and everyone hates them. They should be relatively easy to takeout whenever we desire. Although horses can be useful, i'm not sure they would last long enough to be of help in waging the next set of wars.
Aside from that, Japan at some point though, does make a good vassal, and it doesn't appear that the war has cost you guys much in terms of diverting too many shields or costing too much $$. As everyone has already noticed, they are very hard to compare...
****
****
Pigswill started making colonies. I'm not convinced that making china a colony was the best move, since with an FP on the continent, there are some very good cities available (shanghai, beijing). i think the added production from china (beijing would make a wonderful globe / draft city), will go a long way in helping us take out george, sury and julius...).
****
Jamesds and I continued building up.
We played very similarly, except for tech path. Jamesds got muskets, astronomy etc, while i delayed liberalism for democracy, and am now beelining towards assembly line.
given that we haven't been attacked, [tho this is after the fact...], i would think going after techs like printing press, democracy etc, is more advantageous than muskets...
both of our economies are doing quite well, tho my experience has been that once i get democracy and flip to free-religion and emancipation, i've passed a turning point in the game and my research goes through the roof. add in universal suffrage, and production goes way up in all my cities. tho i may have switched too soon to US in my game as representation has some benefits that i didn't exploit (would probably be best to stay in Rep until assembly to max tech, then switch to US to max hammers).
if playing for domination - for any of the saves, my plan would be to beeline to assembly get those factories built + pentagon (maybe detour to rifling if someone appears to want to attack - though this seems unlikely, sury and washington are at each others throats, toku is irrelevant, and willelm and julius can be bribed)..
once we get assembly line, start building factories and pentagon, while then teching rifling and start drafting / building infantry like crazy. this mitigates us having never had horses (in 3 of the games). and, in my experience, within 5-6 turns of such a buildup we should have enuf of a force to wipe everyone out (should roughly double anyone else's power). depending on the tech situation at that point, given the way things look now, we could pretty much shut down tech and just build military. or maybe snag steel and biology first.
washington seems like the juiciest target, tho some ppl already have divine right in some of the games, and i'm tempted to let them build versailles, and wherever that is built, i'd keep 3-4 cities, and everywhere else i'd vassalize.
as for whether you guys want to play different games or streamline onto one, i'm indifferent - either way sounds interesting. i'm curious to see if the early vassalization of china is actually advantageous. similarly, whether taking out japan, and creating a vassal there does more to expand our economy, than focusing solely on builds and waiting for assembly to completely overpower...
Jamesds
Great Scientist
Turns are getting longer as the game continues, so I think it best that we now decrease the turns/round to 25, say for the next 2 rounds. Then decrease to 20. This means we can continue at a managable speed, without losing the plot of each game.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Maybe if some-one's not keen on the state of their game they could play from someone else's, otherwise plough on and compare in another thirty turns (which I think is a pretty decent interval, long enough for meaningful things to happen but short enough to make games worth comparing).
Edit: crossed posts with Jamesds, 25 turns is ok by me.
Edit: crossed posts with Jamesds, 25 turns is ok by me.
Erathelix
Chieftain
If we agree to play different games, I would still suggest that we comment in great detail our progress and it would be great if we get some feedback. I am here to learn new things and would gladly accept any pointers or suggestions.
I don't agree that it is so hard to compare our games. Only pigswill game has a very distinct path, but still at this point we can make some comparison.
First I'll compare Pigswill game to the rest. I believe that making china a vassal was not so good timed here. As it can be seen in the rest of games economy wasn't dragged down by having 2 continent empire. Our tech development was just as good, but at the same time production potential and military power of unified empire is much greater. The longer we play the more options we'll have to battle colony maintance (for example State Property).
To finish this subject. I have tried creating a vassal at the same time as pigswill just for testing purposes. After making a vassal I could increase the science slider, but still my research was lower than before.
As for war with JPN, here again I don't agree that it is good to wait to crush em. If we go for the stronger rival war will obviously take longer. Japan can be crushed in several turns. We will gain resources (horses) even if we make JPN a colony. There can be many resources not yet visible on map that would seriously draw down our performance if they are not present on our continent. The more land we have under our command the better.
In every game I analyzed, we have a big advantage in tech over our neighbors. And we can crush them when we are comfortably running tanks and bombers vs their rifleman. I have always loved industrial age wars. For me it is the best time to strike at most successful opponent.
I hope my post will open some discussion, as it was very quiet here for some time.
I don't agree that it is so hard to compare our games. Only pigswill game has a very distinct path, but still at this point we can make some comparison.
First I'll compare Pigswill game to the rest. I believe that making china a vassal was not so good timed here. As it can be seen in the rest of games economy wasn't dragged down by having 2 continent empire. Our tech development was just as good, but at the same time production potential and military power of unified empire is much greater. The longer we play the more options we'll have to battle colony maintance (for example State Property).
To finish this subject. I have tried creating a vassal at the same time as pigswill just for testing purposes. After making a vassal I could increase the science slider, but still my research was lower than before.
As for war with JPN, here again I don't agree that it is good to wait to crush em. If we go for the stronger rival war will obviously take longer. Japan can be crushed in several turns. We will gain resources (horses) even if we make JPN a colony. There can be many resources not yet visible on map that would seriously draw down our performance if they are not present on our continent. The more land we have under our command the better.
In every game I analyzed, we have a big advantage in tech over our neighbors. And we can crush them when we are comfortably running tanks and bombers vs their rifleman. I have always loved industrial age wars. For me it is the best time to strike at most successful opponent.
I hope my post will open some discussion, as it was very quiet here for some time
.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I agree that seperating China as an independent colony has slowed down my research and production to date. If I was going for a peaceful space race then I'd have kept China. I'm planning on invading and expanding, keeping 1 or 2 cities then hiving off the rest so I anticipate having more cities. Time will tell if this was a god or a bad idea.
I am reconsidering position vs Japan. Maybe I'll go for steel and milsci, have a couple of golden ages hopefully and wipe out Japan sooner rather than later.
I'm debating whether to accept Tok as a vassal or just annihliate him completly and form a brand new colony in Japan. Vassalising would probably be quicker but is also likely to hamper diplomacy and I'm not sure how much help Tok would be. A brand new colony starts with a positive attitude to us and a fairly clean slate vs AI.
I am reconsidering position vs Japan. Maybe I'll go for steel and milsci, have a couple of golden ages hopefully and wipe out Japan sooner rather than later.
I'm debating whether to accept Tok as a vassal or just annihliate him completly and form a brand new colony in Japan. Vassalising would probably be quicker but is also likely to hamper diplomacy and I'm not sure how much help Tok would be. A brand new colony starts with a positive attitude to us and a fairly clean slate vs AI.
Erathelix
Chieftain
Yes, I think wiping Toku will be most profitable for us. Only problem I see here is we must do it as fast as possible, not to was any time on him. And we have to mind colony maintance. His island is a little further than China and I think it would be best to grant independence to a new vassal as soon as we get 2 cities on the continent. Not only it will allow us to reduce maintance, but at the same time we wouldn't have to worry about protecting the cities we take.
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