Requesting Ideas for Spy Missions

[Aussie_Lurker]

Yeah I for one don't want any kind of 'Random Factor' for implicating another nation-that would be too corny for words IMHO. No, what I was thinking was to have 2 possiblilities. One was passive, and simply involved your spy having a 'false flag' just in case it gets caught (of course, the false flag shouldn't work automatically). The second was an active thing where you perhaps select the 'Spark Incident' mission first, then follow up with a second-normal-mission. The Spark Incident mission would reduce the success chance of the normal mission and-if it fails-will cause a drop in relations with BOTH nations. If it works, though, then the nation on the recieving end will be informed that a spy of "implicated nation" has commited an act against them. Of course, this would only work if players were occasionally able to TELL who commited acts against them. Hope that makes sense.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I was thinking about it... having the same religion and the percentage of your civilization's culture in the target city ought to improve the chances of success and cost... basically it would be the citizens of the town providing assistance to your spy.

Could be useful if a city is captured or if one of theirs is heavily influenced by your culture and is teetering on the brink of joining you.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

I like that idea, state religion presense and Culture should make it easier for a spy to find sympathetic partisans with whom he can get inteligence and safe havens. Fortunatly I have already centralized all spy succes probability calculations to one function so It wil be easy to add these in. I'm thinking 2 additional GlobalDefine values a "STATE_RELIGION_SPY_SUCCESS_BONUS" which just adds a flat X % to the success equation and "CULTURE_SPY_SUCCESS_BONUS" which is multiplied by your culture (or maybe all culture not belonging to the owner) and added to your success probability.

I'm currently finishing up the AI that will hopefully get the AI to use the new spy abilities.

 

[Caesium]

Why are good ideas only located in the cccp?

I would like to have the choice to download only the affected files for implementing them into my/our mod's sdk.

Not against you, but in my case I just don't want to add the whole cccp stuff to my/our mod's dll.

Maybe in future I'll change my opinion. But at the moment I'd like to get only the affected code.

Will this be possible?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Further to my post above regarding implicating other civs for your crimes. This is what I had in mind regarding Success/Failure of Spy missions in general.

At one of the scale, you have a 'catastrophic failure'-not only does your spy fail in his/her mission, but they get caught in the act too (this is where the 'false flag' would potentially come into effect).

Next you have a straight failure, where for some reason the spy does not achieve the assigned mission, but gets away scot free.

Third you would have what I might describe as a 'marginal success'. Your Spy succeeds, but either the spy is captured OR the victim is simply aware of which nation perpetrated the act.

Finally, you have the missions which simply succeed without the victim ever knowing who commited the act.

Now, the potential victim having lots of spies inside targetted cities would significantly increase the change of a spy being caught and/or determining which nation actually committed the deed. However, a well promoted spy should have the chance of successfully leaving behind 'evidence' of a 3rd nation being involved, as I noted above.
Anyway, I acknowledge that this may be beyond the scope of the games code, but I offer the idea up for consideration anyway.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Caesium: Their are two main reasons why I release all my code as a single unified code dump. First, its my ultimate goal/highest priority to produce such a Dll for hopefully universal usage. Second, I'm just too lazy to do the Lopez style release of altered files only. But I do have a strong system of taging all alterations related to a mod so they can be easily searched for. For example the spy mod material can be found searching for "Additional Spy Missions" their are new functions spread across several files but its all kept in blocks at the bottom of each file so when using a Diff program the number of diffs is kept to a minimum. I hope your able to extract the code your interested in.

Aussie: I like the system your proposing in which the achivment of the Mission goal is esentialy independent of the Spys being caught or not, I might try to alter it to be like that someday. But for the time being the Firaxis code links these things in an if/else kind of way. If a spy rolls high enough the Mission effect is executed, if not then the Surrender Mission is performed. I've just added another layer of branching inwhich a spy who is otherwise caught can make a "Suicide" roll to bite the cynide capsule, if successfull then they die WITHOUT revealing their identity to the Victim nation and you suffer no diplomatic penalty. I'll incorporate this as a Unit stat and probably a promotion as well.

Incase your wondering the first version is avalible, use CCCP 2.00.06 and the spy Mission add on to play with the new spy missions. Version .07 will feature more refinments like Promotions and hopfully some balance on the current mission values of cost/risk but no new missions just yet.

 

[Norseman2]

If you're still taking submissions, then I would add "Frame another nation". You do this before your next spy action, in a city, and then if you nuke it or something and the spy isn't caught, then the nation you framed is blamed by the target, instead of you. On the other hand, if you attempt to frame another nation and fail, that nation, and the nation you were doing the framing in will both be angry with you. Edit: You should also be able to do this to your own nation to shorten your next revolution, like with the Reichstag fire.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, as it happens, I have been refining my thoughts on this issue-in a way which might 'get around' the if/else problem. Here is my thought:

When a spy performs a mission, they either succeed or fail-without revealing their presence either way.

However, a potential victims own spies could have a mission such as 'Counter-Intelligence' and 'Capture Enemy Spy' missions. If they succeed, then they either reveal the perpetrator of a spy-mission (whether it succeeded or failed) or even capture a spy (again, succeed or fail). However, if it is possible, the chance of these missions succeeding could depend on whether the original mission succeeded or failed. This might encourage players to build their own spies simply to counter the espionage activities of other nations!

Hope that makes sense.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Spies already have the ability to act in a defensive mannor, each Spy in on adjacent to a spy trying to perform a mission decresses its chance of success, normal units also decresses the success chance but not as much.

By giving a SpyDefense value to buildings the player will have an alternative means of protecting themselves. ScotlandYard will be modified to be something of a HunterKiller Algorithm (from SMAC) but just affecting one city. That city will be virtualy spy proof and a good place to build stuff you dont want to losse to a spy.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I confess I did not know that Impaler. Still, I guess what I am suggesting is to make it more 'systematic'. So a successful spy has a better chance of escape than a failed spy, and that spies can reveal the perpetrator of a terrorist act even if they don't capture the spy.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Well, what I'm not terribly clear on is why Scotland Yard even provides Spies anyway.... did I miss something here? I just thought they were London police... if anything it should produce Bobbies.

I think that it should have a spydefense bonus for the city its in, but I think that Spies should be produced by a CIA/SIS type national wonder.. and that one could give a small spy defense bonus to each city.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Aussie: Lets see the out come can be expressed as the answer to 3 boolean questions...

1- Spy successfully performs mission or not
2- Victim Civ is aware of who did it or not
3- Spy lives or dies

So their are 2^3 = 8 possible outcomes all of which should have a chance of occurring.

If I'm getting it right the psudo code would go something like

if (spy wins mission success roll)
...Mission performed()

if (spy fails detection roll)
...InformVictimofSpiesNationalityandApplyDiplopenalty()


if (spy fails escape roll)
{
...if (spy fails Suicide roll)
...{
......InformVictimofSpiesNationalityandApplyDiplopenalty() // if not already done
...}
...SpyDies()
}


Contrast that with Firaxis original code

if (spy fails Mission roll)
{
...InformVictimofSpiesNationalityandApplyDiplopenalty()
...SpyDies()
}
else
{
Mission performed()
}


I like the fact that their are more possible outcomes under the former psudocode but its got a lot more random rolls and thus more data that the player needs to de presented with which is my main concern. The original codes single Mission Roll is nice and simple for both the player and the AI. I feel comfortable adding a second Suicide roll in their as its a relitivly simple and easy to grasp concept. A thirds roll is strarting to realy stretch things. I like the ideas fundamentaly and will keep brainstorming on it, as for now I'll be working on new missions and such with an eye towards possible changes in the future.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I understand your concerns, but I definitely think that adding an extra layer of 'uncertainty' to espionage will make for a better game overall. Part of what makes espionage so boring-at present-is the rather boolean way in which it is implemented. I want the thrill of 'oh boy, the mission failed but at least my spy got away undetected (or did it??)', not simply a 'oh it worked' or 'oh it failed'. It also then opens up the opportunity to 'feed false information' in the way I described above.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Aussie: I LIKE the fram another civ idea, I WILL be implmenting it, BUT itI've already desided that Framing WILL NOT BE A TACKED ON DESISION TO A STANDARD SPY MISSION. It will be a Mission soley in and of itself because this is much simpler to code, better game play in my opinion, more realistic and easier for the player to understand and use (imagine the UI mess from having to select which country if any your going to try framing for a mission before every single mission). Frame missions when successfull will simply produce a "You cuaght and interogated a [nationality] spy" for the Victim civ and give a diplo penalty between the two you choose the nationality (which must be know to you and the victim) that is blamed. Forget about the "Spark Insident" double layered mission concept its DOA for me, sorry. I'm still interested in expanding the boolean nature of mission success as you call it but Framing wont enter into the equation of why or how that happens.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

So, let me see if I understand it. If you attempt the 'Implicate Nation' mission, then the spy is automatically caught and interrogated by the victim, and it makes it look like said spy was 'caught in the act' of another mission, in the name of the 3rd party. Is that correct? That on its own would be great, and a huge improvement on the existing system-but it would still be nice to have the spy able to get away after he implicated the other nation, and have a victim be able to determine the source of a spy mission-even if the spy got away. Does that make sense? Otherwise people might avoid the mission altogether-especially if we allow spies to have lots of promotions and stuff. I do understand why you don't want it tacked onto another mission type, and it seems as though you are definitely considering the guts of my suggestion-as it were.
Anyway, please don't see this as a criticism of your work-you have excellent ideas and you are an excellent modder. I am certain that whatever you produce will be of the highest calibre-I just wanted to throw my ideas into the ring for consideration .

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Not quite like that. The spy Isn't caught, some "scap goat" is fabricated by your spy given incriminating paper linking him with a 3rd party civ and is then shoot in the back of the head by your spy and found by the victim civ causing a loss of diplomatic relations between the victim and the 3rd civ. Your spy gets away scott free as in all successfull missions.

As per the current system your Spy can not both succed in the Mission AND be revealed, in the context of a framing mission if the victim civ realizes that you were framing someone else then you have failed at the mission so that paradox is avoided.

Please do try out the initial version and give me your feed back on the various Global Defines for the 4 initial missions, thats my #1 feed back need right now.

Here is my current next list of Mission ideas and effects for the next batch of missions, I want to get a wide range of effects that give the player ample means by which to compromise/damage an oponent. Many missions that people mentioned were not included because of their controversial nature or because they sounded more complex/difficult then they were worth. Condition lists the pre-requisites for the spy to be able to perform the mission.

Propaganda:
Condition: ??
Effect: Incresses the victims War Weariness factor with your civ

Poison Well:
Condition: City Size?
Effect: Kills 1 pop

Frame:
Condition: select a 3rd Civ know to both you and the victim
Effect: produces a false "spy caught" and worsense relations

Coup d'état:
Condition: victim is not in Anarchy, spy is in a Goverment center
Effect: victim civ gets 1 turn of Anarchy

Insurgency:
Condition: spy is in an unocupied enemy plot whom your at war with which contains any amount of forign culture
Effect: generates a free insurgent unit under your control, success depends on forign culture level

Demolition:
Condition: city has a building in it
Effect: Randomly destroys a City Building

Demoralize:
Condition: In a square with an enemy unit, outside of its own territory
Effect: The unit is disbanded

Assasinate:
Condition: perment specialist in city
Effect: removes a random perment specialist

Agitate:
Condition: ??
Effect: Temporary unhappiness

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I'm curious, Impaler, which ones did you consider too controversial? When you think about it, you could see 'Agitate' as a form of 'Terrorist Attack'-at least it pretty much has the same effect as I would have expected. Other than that, this is a very extensive list. I take it that research theft, sabotage, destroy production and steal plans are still gonna be on the list (actually, how hard would it be to have a 'destroy food supply' mission?)
The next question then has to be-when should spies (or their progenitors) be available, and what techs should enable the various mission types mentioned. I mean, some seem obvious-like destroying an existing building should require at least chemistry (think grenadiers), wheras destroying production should only require Construction. Stealing plans, maps or research should require a minimum of either alphabet or writing, and assassination should require bronze or iron working. Insurgency should require Nationalism and Coup d'etat should require something like Monarchy or Divine Right (or Communism if you feel like putting it back a bit). Propaganda should require Printing Press and Poison Well should require something like medicine or the like (though this is probably too far back for my liking).
Oh, one last thing, would it be possible to make 'Poison Water Supply' only cost temporary health (maybe 1 or 2)? Just curious.
Anyway, this looks like a great list Impaler, I look forward to trying out the finished product .

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Norseman2]

Troops stationed in a city where the well is poisoned should lose health.
Propaganda in your own cities should let you reduce war weariness.
Framing another nation in a plot against your civ should make your friends angry with that civ (-1 modifier). Likewise, in any framing, or failed spy mission, the friends of the targeted civ should be angry with the civ who was doing the spying (or got framed doing it), with possible exceptions for recon-only missions. Setting off a suitcase nuke should be -2 (assuming you have that).

Here's a couple of new spy missions to consider:

Kidnap/rescue: takes great people out of a country. This would either take great specialists, great people, or both, depending on if there's difficulty coding that or not. This would be like what happened when Niels Bohr escaped Germany (just you'd be rescuing him, instead of him escaping by himself), or like when Kim Jong Il kidnapped that South Korean actress. It would delete that unit and create a new great person for you of the same type (and preferably same name) in your capital.

Plant informer: Gives you LOS on a city, like if it had your state religion.

Investigate: Gives you a chance to spot informers and spies. Can be used to investigate an area where a spy did something, since the spy will still be there. If you lose a mine or something, you can send a spy to investigate the area and hopefully spot the spy that did it. If you succeed, the spy dies. It will also remove informers if it identifies them. You'll be notified of the nationality of any spies or informers that you spot.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

The original 3 missions (Sabotage, Destroy, Steal Plans) and the first 4 new missions (Espionage, Theft, Disrupt Research, Insurection) are still included. This is a list of additional missions which will bring the total to 16 missions.

Currently mission access in controled by an XML boolean onthe UnitInfo, their are no technology prerequisites for missions. Its up to the mod maker to deside when missions become avalible by desiding when the units with the mission ability can be built.

Wiping out all the food in the food acumulator bar sounds like a nice idea, call it "ruin grain" or something to that effect. I'll consider it.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

The original 3 missions (Sabotage, Destroy, Steal Plans) and the first 4 new missions (Espionage, Theft, Disrupt Research, Insurection) are still included. This is a list of additional missions which will bring the total to 16 missions.

I didn't notice the "disrupt research" mission until you mentioned it in another thread... great idea. Definitely will make spies more useful.. I'd definitely use it during war time to keep the enemy from getting a weapon that would put them on par with me... Won't stop them from trading for it of course.