Research Request(s)

[Joij21]

If you wanted to really simulate a primitive society(like native americans) getting guns, an auto-upgrade system for certain units could be implemented. Basically if say you have an archer unit that successfully kills a rifleman your archer would then have a percent chance to automatically upgrade into a rifleman as well(stealing the weapons like during a native raid). Or a more peaceful approach would be obtaining the rifle resource from a more advanced civ(which let's face it the AI would view you as a joke if you a stone age civ with no leverage at all demanded rifles from them, but for the sake of this I shall assume they somehow do give you the rifles) then your archer units will be able to be upgraded manually into riflemen with gold. However because your society is too primitive to have unlocked the ability to not only produce rifles but also train riflemen you will only be able to train archers and pay gold to manually upgrade them. If you want to make the guns yourself and train riflemen without wasting gold then you'll have to research the techs.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The equipment system is already mostly in place. There are some things, big projects, that need to be completed before equipment can be implemented still, an inventory system for one. And the things we're working at here.

Thats one reason this review is important.

 

[Septentrion]

If you wanted to really simulate a primitive society(like native americans) getting guns, an auto-upgrade system for certain units could be implemented. Basically if say you have an archer unit that successfully kills a rifleman your archer would then have a percent chance to automatically upgrade into a rifleman as well(stealing the weapons like during a native raid). Or a more peaceful approach would be obtaining the rifle resource from a more advanced civ(which let's face it the AI would view you as a joke if you a stone age civ with no leverage at all demanded rifles from them, but for the sake of this I shall assume they somehow do give you the rifles) then your archer units will be able to be upgraded manually into riflemen with gold. However because your society is too primitive to have unlocked the ability to not only produce rifles but also train riflemen you will only be able to train archers and pay gold to manually upgrade them. If you want to make the guns yourself and train riflemen without wasting gold then you'll have to research the techs.

I think several Fall from Heaven mod-mods have a system like that with a Scavenger trait/promotion.

I would think C2C would do it through Weapon Trafficking crime.

 

[JosEPh_II]

we should be careful not to raise it too high or you might as well base most of your research strategy on conquest.

I thought you based all aspects of the Mod on the basis of Conquest? I believe that's what you have said. And as this file is set to a Random tech being given how would you set it as a research strategy? It's random.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I thought you based all aspects of the Mod on the basis of Conquest? I believe that's what you have said. And as this file is set to a Random tech being given how would you set it as a research strategy? It's random.

Not all... I just see how all aspects relate to conquest and that warfare can give a player the upper hand on all victory settings no matter how you slice it. We've changed things now so that you get the benefit of capturing a city on more than one tech, quite a few actually. When we had the default amounts you show, we were only doing that for one tech. If we did that amount for up to 5 techs like we do now, you'd have nearly all techs the opponent owns within 3 or 4 cities captured. I'm not against this getting more powerful than it is but I'd feel it's a bit too strong to get some 25% of the research of some 5 techs you don't have each time you take an opponent city. It's just too much right? I'm just urging a little bit more conservative numbers since it's not limited to just one tech that you're getting the conquest benefit towards. And I like that you get it towards most of the techs they have that you don't. But I do also agree that it's too low now.

 

[raxo2222]

I separated resources, that can be used by city even though if its used by single unit, or only as part of chain, or only for recycling, or building using it gets unlocked much later, and those that aren't used by city at all.
Unused by city are usually trade resources, ores and resources made by factories.
Crystal Glassware (and Mammoth Graveyard, but that it obvious) are only resource that can't be produced.
There are 89 resources unusable by city.
Also hit musicals/singles/movies are produced by world wonder only.
They should produce 5 units of them not one, so you can trade them.

Edit: Updated as crystal glass can be produced now.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Also hit musicals/singles/movies are produced by world wonder only.
They should produce 5 units of them not one, so you can trade them.

Are you sure they are produced by a WW? The buildings that make those go back and forth between a WW and a normal building.

 

[raxo2222]

Are you sure they are produced by a WW? The buildings that make those go back and forth between a WW and a normal building.

Their producers were marked with golden star.
These three resources have only one producer for each resource.
Hollywood, Broadway and Rock'n'rRoll are World Wonders (Hit Movies/Musicals/Singles producers).

Also I saw buildings affected by resource, that is unlocked around when building may get obsoleted.
For example: One of them was using Hit Musicals - they get unlocked by Electronics and building got obsoleted by Realism.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There was a building "Recording Studio" which used to produce Hit Singles. Perhaps it needs to be adjusted so that it can't be built in every city by requiring 3 of some other building and have it also produce Hit Singles.

edit I wrote hat when tired. As I said earlier the discussion went back and forth on this. The final conclusion was that those bonuses should all go back on the wonders and yes those wonders should be making 6 of those bonuses.

 

[raxo2222]

This new Marano Glassmakers doesn't have WW star icon on it.
I like these changes

So Manufactured resource is Trade resource, if it is produced only by world wonder?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This new Marano Glassmakers doesn't have WW star icon on it.
I like these changes

So Manufactured resource is Trade resource, if it is produced only by world wonder?

It is a place holder button I whipped up in 10 minutes. It is not the right shape nor does it have an alpha channel.

A Trade resource is one that was designed with trade in mind. Some are produced by regular buildings.

 

[raxo2222]

A Trade resource is one that was designed with trade in mind. Some are produced by regular buildings.

I guess all culture needing wonders/buildings, wine WW and hit WW are producing trade resources.
Did I find them all in my excel list?
I added "Trade" comment at them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Wine buildings are not a world wonder. They should be a group wonder now that we have that mechanism available. They work the same way but are a normal building or national wonder.

 

[raxo2222]

The Wine buildings are not a world wonder. They should be a group wonder now that we have that mechanism available. They work the same way but are a normal building or national wonder.

It wasn't changed yet - wine producers are world wonders.
Winery - Champagne/Vintage Red/Vintage White

 

[Thunderbrd]

It wasn't changed yet - wine producers are world wonders.
Winery - Champagne/Vintage Red/Vintage White

They will be grouped soon.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Not all... I just see how all aspects relate to conquest and that warfare can give a player the upper hand on all victory settings no matter how you slice it. We've changed things now so that you get the benefit of capturing a city on more than one tech, quite a few actually. When we had the default amounts you show, we were only doing that for one tech. If we did that amount for up to 5 techs like we do now, you'd have nearly all techs the opponent owns within 3 or 4 cities captured. I'm not against this getting more powerful than it is but I'd feel it's a bit too strong to get some 25% of the research of some 5 techs you don't have each time you take an opponent city. It's just too much right? I'm just urging a little bit more conservative numbers since it's not limited to just one tech that you're getting the conquest benefit towards. And I like that you get it towards most of the techs they have that you don't. But I do also agree that it's too low now.

Need to address a fallacy here.

The 1st section of the Enhanced Tech Conquest ini does not allow full techs to be had. It is set to "Complete Technology Discovery = False". So you will never get 5 techs revealed only a max of "up to 5" partials because of these next 2 settings: Technology Transfer Count = 5, But
# Change the value to true if the amount of technologies conquered cities will
# hand over to their new owners should be random.
# Default value is False
Random Technology Transfer Amount = True.

So it will be a random number of partials from 1 to 5. Because this setting cements it to only being partials: Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

So even upping the "Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25" (which is the old Default value) will never give you this from the Conquered Empires, "you'd have nearly all techs the opponent owns within 3 or 4 cities captured". Just can not happen. And at 25% you only have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a random set of partials (1 to 5)

I know you have agreed it's too low. But I'm just wanting to clarify that the changes made a few years back basically gutted the chance of getting any tech thru conquest.

Now I will leave this up to you and/or Toffer to change Or not as you see fit. I think I have plainly shown why it is a lost feature.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

My understanding is that you can still get a full tech. You get a percentage of the conquered players research towards the tech. Not a percentage of your research towards the tech. So if you get the same tech granted each time you capture a city then it is possible that you will get 25% each time which means 100% of that tech.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Need to address a fallacy here.

The 1st section of the Enhanced Tech Conquest ini does not allow full techs to be had. It is set to "Complete Technology Discovery = False". So you will never get 5 techs revealed only a max of "up to 5" partials because of these next 2 settings: Technology Transfer Count = 5, But
# Change the value to true if the amount of technologies conquered cities will
# hand over to their new owners should be random.
# Default value is False
Random Technology Transfer Amount = True.

So it will be a random number of partials from 1 to 5. Because this setting cements it to only being partials: Disable Full Technology Transfer = True

So even upping the "Base Technology Transfer Percent = 25" (which is the old Default value) will never give you this from the Conquered Empires, "you'd have nearly all techs the opponent owns within 3 or 4 cities captured". Just can not happen. And at 25% you only have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a random set of partials (1 to 5)

I know you have agreed it's too low. But I'm just wanting to clarify that the changes made a few years back basically gutted the chance of getting any tech thru conquest.

Now I will leave this up to you and/or Toffer to change Or not as you see fit. I think I have plainly shown why it is a lost feature.

My understanding is that you can still get a full tech. You get a percentage of the conquered players research towards the tech. Not a percentage of your research towards the tech. So if you get the same tech granted each time you capture a city then it is possible that you will get 25% each time which means 100% of that tech.

I'm gonna have to look at the coding for it but going off of memory, it can't give you the full technology, only take you as far as one research point away from completion, which would mean you could put all of those you've 'near learned' from conquest into one round and then queue up the next tech you want to research past that and they would all pour in and you'd pretty much still get that full round of research towards the next tech.

I think you may be right about the % representing a range of the % earned towards the tech BUT isn't the second variable you point to a bonus % of the tech cost earned per population in the city that you conquer? Here's the thing, I know I'm not sure how it works right now but I also recall it being very powerful and you could get the tech from conquest very quickly.

Technology Transfer Count = 5 That's the variable we had at 1 before we reduced the amount we were getting from each conquest.

'And at 25% you only have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a random set of partials (1 to 5)'
I think the 25% means 25% of the research cost of the tech they know that you don't is how much you are getting towards that tech. Yes, you might only be getting (with the way we could set it) the random of 1-25% but still, it's not a random chance of getting some or not getting some, it's the amount towards it that you get.

What do we have it at now? 5? I'll have to look at the coding for the population based one and see how that actually calculates.

 

[Toffer90]

I'm quite familiar with the code for tech conquest.
The "Base Technology Transfer Percent" (iBasePercent) is quite straight forward
iBeakers = iTechCost * iBasePercent / 100

With the "Random Technology Transfer Amount" (random) set to "False", the per population acts as expected like this:
Percent = pCity.getPopulation() * popPercent
iExtraBeakers = iTechCost * Percent / 100

The amount that you get is:
iTotalBeakers = iBeakers + iExtraBeakers

----------------------------------------------------

The code is flawed when random is set to True; then the per population percent (popPercent) becomes real weak like this:
Percent = pCity.getPopulation() * popPercent
iExtraBeakers = aRandomNumberBetweenZeroAndPercent
# comment: iExtraBeakers can then be 0 up to ( "Percent" - 1 )

The amount that you get is:
iTotalBeakers = iBeakers + iExtraBeakers

As you can see the iExtraBeakers is no longer a percentage of the techs total cost as when Random was False, and furthermore the iExtraBeakers isn't even scaled by gamespeed or any other modifiers that may increase the tech cost.


I rewrote the entire code today and will include it in my fullscreen modmod, it is a straight forward improvement where there is also no limit to how many techs you may learn from your opponent other than a dampening effect that reduces the beakers gained more and more for each tech you get beakers toward.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So do we change the Random setting to False?

Or do we take Toffer's new code?