Research Request(s)

Make it more difficult to amass all of the manufactured resources and spur trade of them more often
This makes sense but I think something to keep in mind is that manufactured goods being traded most of the time is because they were of higher quality (however that might be represented - a wonder perhaps, or simply having a great number of the resource improved early on so you develop a 'tradition' of metalworking) or because the other side simply did not have tin deposits so they needed to buy the tin from you. In this case a lot of it is less of being problems of

There's also other factors involved. If it means fairly heavy duty labor for a kid, it could increase the mortality rate (unhealth) but also make them stronger, thus +XP to units
See I think you're looking at this from a too-modern point of view. The Omega Child Crew is already disabled at specialized labor and all further civics, which to me implies they're essentially not doing anything specialized. They're sorting nuts, carrying apples, possibly learning to carve meat with the butcher in a primitive apprenticeship practise. They're not being worked to death simply because it's not something that benefits the tribe. As for the 'very large' bonus, I agree that it's extremely large to the point of being the first thing you build in tribalism cities most of the time, but it's also important to note, I think, that most of that bonus is from the resources providing %:hammers: and not literally the building itself. This is a representation I think that the children of the tribe, which is certainly a not-negligible proportion of the tribe, are contributing. Sure, they're weaker than adults, but if you've ever, for example, cooked before, it's amazing how much fast you get things done if someone else de-bones the pork belly and finishes washing and skinning the potatoes and mixes the spices while you're working on the onions and stock. I don't think there should be a 'fairly high mortality rate' because I can't imagine they're being made to carry large rocks or something, and any minor scrapes that pop up, I think, on average must be balanced out by any other illnesses.

Also also labor is the bane of the artist since play and freedom and time to explore and express are what develops creativity, thus the building should probably also penalize culture (rather severely I'd think.)
I think that's important to note is that at this time in history (really almost prehistory since the building obsoletes if you take Specialized Labor), the concept of the 'artist' is not even around. At the very best you had shamans or tribal leaders, but even they must have been involved in day to day work as well. There simply was unlikely to be any sort of culture the way we'd recognize it as 'pure' philosophy. This isn't to say that free time didn't exist or that culture was nonextant but I think that having kids help out here and there should not really change things.

And it doesn't sound like a happy way to grow up and could be begrudged a bit, thus some unhappiness from the building sounds right
I don't mean any offense but this sounds like the first world speaking. To a lot of kids, there's nothing more they'd want than to help out dad and be praised for their work in helping feed mom when she's sick. It's a [crew] of children, too, so I doubt they're being whipped or something and they're probably getting time to play anyway. You have to remember that the current practice of kids being 'free' (they're not, they're at school, which is just the evolution of apprenticeships to education) is a modern occurrence. One of the biggest reasons kids could go to school is because farm productivity rose high enough that their hands on the field were no longer necessary, and even early on the annual break was during harvest season, when every pair of hands mattered. If anything the people who become angry would be the parents of the child (presuming abuse, which again I don't believe is what's happening)

So perhaps we could have a couple of options as to what you choose to build, one that's more hardcore, one that's less, and then perhaps one that is in direct opposition to the concept that fosters total child freedom from effort, each one being an exclusive local decision for that community that once constructed, cuts you off from being able to construct the other
This sounds like a cool idea, but honestly I can't imagine it ever happening in the area and it would have been to very little benefit, historically, to either abusiveness or modern child-care ethics.

If it's just a couple hours of chores a day, I'd say the building effects are far too strong
As I said, I think this is the wrong way to think about it. It's not 'a couple hours of chores a day', it's '20-30% of the population of the tribe are now working at 40-60% capacity'. When the hunter brings back the rabbits they're bringing him some more rope and helping to cut it up, when the lumberjack brings back log the bigger kids are helping to set up the new hut, and so on. When you think of it this way, the maximum of +2:hammers:, +15%:hammers: makes sense - they're not doing anything else useful anyway, but 30% of the population of the tribe is working at half efficiency (because they're kids).
 
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As I said, I think this is the wrong way to think about it. It's not 'a couple hours of chores a day', it's '20-30% of the population of the tribe are now working at 40-60% capacity'. When the hunter brings back the rabbits they're bringing him some more rope and helping to cut it up, when the lumberjack brings back log the bigger kids are helping to set up the new hut, and so on. When you think of it this way, the maximum of +2:hammers:, +15%:hammers: makes sense - they're not doing anything else useful anyway, but 30% of the population of the tribe is working at half efficiency (because they're kids).
Good overview! All this Other stuff is just modern day psychology, Dr. Spock type *rap that is ruining today's children from learning how to be self sufficient and that working develops the Mind and Body. Cause "work" is a bad word to be used in association with children in today's American society.

The name is throwing ppl off, Omega Child "Labor". They get fixated on the "labor" and add all kinds of derogatory connotations to it.
 
Alright. I can see your perspective. I'm mostly just throwing some devil's advocacy around and ideas anyhow.

I'll summarize the eggs discussion as soon as I can here so we can move on.
 
The name is throwing ppl off, Omega Child "Labor". They get fixated on the "labor" and add all kinds of derogatory connotations to it.

Well I think its also the fact that they're called "Omega" were some people might get some kind of negative connotation. Because to be an "Omega" implies that you are not dominant and therefore not an "Alpha". As a matter of fact being an omega is far worse than being a beta because it is the last letter of the Greek Alphabet, thus implying the ultimate possible sense of inferiority. Ever since I started playing this mod I always thought the omega child laborers were the children of less dominant beta males who had been kidnaped after their skulls were bashed in by the alpha males who also then kidnaped their mothers(raping them and turning them into the harem building). The children being seen as something lesser than their already failure of a father(now dead because he was too weak to protect himself and his family and therefore the ultimate disgrace) are now dubbed as "Omegas" and now must live their entire life's existence as the personal slaves and servants of their own kidnappers. So maybe if the word omega were removed it might not be so negative either.
 
Well I think its also the fact that they're called "Omega" were some people might get some kind of negative connotation. Because to be an "Omega" implies that you are not dominant and therefore not an "Alpha". As a matter of fact being an omega is far worse than being a beta because it is the last letter of the Greek Alphabet, thus implying the ultimate possible sense of inferiority. Ever since I started playing this mod I always thought the omega child laborers were the children of less dominant beta males who had been kidnaped after their skulls were bashed in by the alpha males who also then kidnaped their mothers(raping them and turning them into the harem building). The children being seen as something lesser than their already failure of a father(now dead because he was too weak to protect himself and his family and therefore the ultimate disgrace) are now dubbed as "Omegas" and now must live their entire life's existence as the personal slaves and servants of their own kidnappers. So maybe if the word omega were removed it might not be so negative either.
Perhaps, but there isn't going to be an "Alpha Child" anyway. There is no hereditary rule at this point, and "ageism" as it was once called here is predominant, Or in other words: Being a child means being "Omega".
 
CLOTH
  • It is something you buy in the store in modern use. But it almost always is a base good that gets transformed into something else.
  • What buildings in the game produce it now?
  • Where is it applied in the game now?
  • How does it benefit a society to have access to it?
  • Unlike many we've looked at so far, quality variations are far and wide and all useful for their purpose. Do we continue to assume that access to this resource immediately means access to all types? There may be a lot more value here to having differing types of cloth from various textile sources. If we did that, we could enhance buildings by making you want to collect all types, but then we would still want the generic 'Cloth' for use as a prerequisite right?
  • As such a critical resource, should there not be eventual penalties being introduced if you DON'T have any?
  • Would there be futuristic types of cloth?
 
How does it benefit a society to have access to it?
Food- Used to turn milk into cheese
Production- bags/baskets
Health- Cover wounds to prevent infection, and to sew them. Protection from cold environment. Sanitation (cleaning the house, towels to dry after showers and such)
People- clothing, bed linen, curtains and other similar household applications.
Culture- paintings,fashion (and some use in theatres too, i guess?)
Houses- tents
Armor- certain types of cloth/threads are used to make body armor (such as kevlar)

Unlike many we've looked at so far, quality variations are far and wide and all useful for their purpose. Do we continue to assume that access to this resource immediately means access to all types? There may be a lot more value here to having differing types of cloth from various textile sources. If we did that, we could enhance buildings by making you want to collect all types, but then we would still want the generic 'Cloth' for use as a prerequisite right?
In most cases, any cloth will do. However, a superior cloth will yield better results. Silk feels a lot better than wool, which means that most people prefer it. However, wool is cheaper to produce.
We will most likely want to have a generic cloth for all the uses/requirements, and specialized cloth for additional bonuses.

As such a critical resource, should there not be eventual penalties being introduced if you DON'T have any?
Unless there's a generic building that provides it, I'm against this. If a player lacks access to cotton/silk/wool or whatever other source is required to get it, we don't want to punish him.
That said, it can be a strategic resource on the level of horses, iron and coal.

Would there be futuristic types of cloth?
Most likely.
In recent years there is work on trying to produce large amounts of spider silk (the material spiders use in their web). The spider silk is superior to many commonly used material, and is used in surgery and (possibly) ballistic armor.
It's quite possible that in the future, most cloths will be made out of spider silk, or a newer type of thread.
 
Good points made. There are also special cloth types as protection for firefighter for example. And electronics will probably also become a more integrated with clothes in the future. Hard to tell which should get the bonus though: Cloth from silk or Clothes from silk? Also I am all for simplicity, especially in the first era that I see as some sort of tutorial, so I'd be fine with only having one type of cloth represented. You should not ask "can we add more?" but rather "what to we get as a benefit if we add something else"?

Then I like DH's idea abour penalties if you don't have certain resources at a certain time (like, having no shoes from industrial onwards). But I think this will also more apply to clothes than to cloths.
 
Then I like DH's idea abour penalties if you don't have certain resources at a certain time (like, having no shoes from industrial onwards).
I don't, it's too much complication.
 
Cloth producers:
Spoiler :
zivFqtH.jpg


BUILDING_WEAVER
BUILDING_CLOTH_FACTORY
BUILDING_TEXTILE_DISTRICT - Peppers module

Cloth consumers:
Spoiler :
Zkuq7GM.jpg

I'm listing building in columns.
BUILDING_ANCIENT_EMBALMER
BUILDING_HAT_FACTORY
BUILDING_SAIL_FACTORY
BUILDING_CAPTURETHEFLAG
BUILDING_HAT_SHOP
BUILDING_SAIL_WEAVER
BUILDING_PEST_MOTHS - this is special building - pest
BUILDING_CARPET_FACTORY
BUILDING_PAPER_MAKER
BUILDING_SEAMSTRESS_HUT
BUILDING_CARPET_MAKER
BUILDING_PUPPET_THEATER
BUILDING_QUILT_MAKER
BUILDING_TEXTILE_FACTORY
BUILDING_ROPE_FACTORY
BUILDING_ROPE_WEAVER
BUILDING_TEXTILE_MILL
BUILDING_YURT - special building - housing
 
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Bugs are actual resource and they aren't tied to any reveal/enable tech

Maybe tie them with Scavenging?
 
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Bugs are actual resource and they aren't tied to any reveal/enable tech

Maybe tie them with Scavenging?
It they are available from the start. There are a number of resources like that. They do not clog up the tech tree.
Then I like DH's idea abour penalties if you don't have certain resources at a certain time (like, having no shoes from industrial onwards). But I think this will also more apply to clothes than to cloths.
I don't, it's too much complication.
It is already in game to some extent. It is invisible and part of the Housing stuff. I just want it to be visible and therefore manegable.
 
It they are available from the start. There are a number of resources like that. They do not clog up the tech tree.
So number of resources are missed in review then - I didn't list these resources before.

Also some techs have tons of entries anyway.
For Scavenging that resource wouln't make much difference anyway.
 
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I finished updating my resource list.
Only 5 manufactured resources aren't tied to tech.
BUG
GEOGLYPH_PLANS - Work in Progress?
LIANGZHU - Trade Cultural/Past + Not produced by WW
OLMEC_JADE_FIGURINES -Trade Cultural/Past + Not produced by WW
SHANG_JADE_RITUAL_ITEMS - Cultural/Past + Not produced by WW

Three culture ones, one that allows improvement to be placed if resource exists and one (bugs) is what should be unlocked with Scavenging techs.
Not that Scavenging doesn't unlock 17 resources anyway.....
There are 338 manufactured and similiar amount of culture resources.
I updated my XML file list of manufactured resources.
Some of them were scattered across spacetime....
 

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I finished updating my resource list.
Only 5 manufactured resources aren't tied to tech.
BUG
GEOGLYPH_PLANS - Work in Progress?
LIANGZHU - Trade Cultural/Past + Not produced by WW
OLMEC_JADE_FIGURINES -Trade Cultural/Past + Not produced by WW
SHANG_JADE_RITUAL_ITEMS - Cultural/Past + Not produced by WW

Three culture ones, one that allows improvement to be placed if resource exists and one (bugs) is what should be unlocked with Scavenging techs.
Not that Scavenging doesn't unlock 17 resources anyway.....
There are 338 manufactured and similiar amount of culture resources.
I updated my XML file list of manufactured resources.
Some of them were scattered across spacetime....

Geoglyph Plans are provided by a the Great Wonder Nazca Lines and are working as intended. They are needed for workers to build Geoglyphs. I think I did it a different way for Machu Pichu and Moai but I can't remember.

The Jade stuff are buildings and you can (almost) make as many as you want. They are designed for trade as only one nation should be able to build them.
 
Geoglyph Plans are provided by a the Great Wonder Nazca Lines and are working as intended. They are needed for workers to build Geoglyphs. I think I did it a different way for Machu Pichu and Moai but I can't remember.

The Jade stuff are buildings and you can (almost) make as many as you want. They are designed for trade as only one nation should be able to build them.
Ah so they are are fully implemented.
I'm more interested in why these resources aren't tied to techs.
Only 5 out of 338 manufactured resources are like this.
Bugs would be revealed/enabled by Scavenging, and other four would be revealed/enabled when respective cultures gets unlocked.
 
Ah so they are are fully implemented.
I'm more interested in why these resources aren't tied to techs.
Only 5 out of 338 manufactured resources are like this.
Bugs would be revealed/enabled by Scavenging, and other four would be revealed/enabled when respective cultures gets unlocked.
Is there a reason to unlock resources from building in techs, if the providing buildings are behind techs?
I mean, if it's impossible to get Bugs without a building from the Scavenger tech, why bother having them unlocked? It will just bloat to the tech with useless information.
 
Ah so they are are fully implemented.
I'm more interested in why these resources aren't tied to techs.
Only 5 out of 338 manufactured resources are like this.
Bugs would be revealed/enabled by Scavenging, and other four would be revealed/enabled when respective cultures gets unlocked.
It is safer to not have manufactured style resources tied to techs simply because
  1. If the building changes techs then you have to remember to change the bonus also.

  2. You don't need to know the tech that is needed to build the building for a bonus (eg bicycle) in order to be able to import the bonus. This is especially important for luxury goods.
 
You don't need to know the tech that is needed to build the building for a bonus (eg bicycle) in order to be able to import the bonus. This is especially important for luxury goods.
While not directly related, I thought I'd ask- Is there a reason one can't harvest resources without the correct techs? For example, I conquered a city which controlled a camel with pasture on it.
Hovering on the camel icon, it said I have 0 camels (Since I don't have the camel riding tech). The same applies to other resources such as salt and lead. Is that supposed to be how it works? Is there a reason for it? I understand the resource might be useless, but gathering it (and possibly selling) should still be an option.
 
While not directly related, I thought I'd ask- Is there a reason one can't harvest resources without the correct techs? For example, I conquered a city which controlled a camel with pasture on it.
Hovering on the camel icon, it said I have 0 camels (Since I don't have the camel riding tech). The same applies to other resources such as salt and lead. Is that supposed to be how it works? Is there a reason for it? I understand the resource might be useless, but gathering it (and possibly selling) should still be an option.
There does need to be a bit of rationalization of the bonuses.

However if you don't have the camel domestication tech then all you can do with camels is eat them. You can't effectively herd or work with them so basically you don't have them. To be a bit more precise the improved bonus camels refers to something you can use either in agriculture, war, trade or entertainment. All of these require that the camels have been trained to be handled by humans and to put up with the noises and other animals that humans have.

In theory capturing the city should give you some points towards any of the techs the city had that you don't but that is not the way Civ IV is coded. As far as I can tell you can only award points towards the current tech. In Civ III I think you could.
 
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