Research Request(s)

[raxo2222]

@Thunderbrd I found major issue with Cloth (unlocking tech at Weaving is way too early):
To make it you need Wool (Weaver's Hut needs it, earliest accessible resource), that is unlocked at X15 with Animal Husbandry, while technically cloth is available at Weaving (X3).
Basically you can't make cloth until shortly before sedentary lifestyle.
This means at least 7 consumers must wait for cloth or other materials to be available.

 

[pepper2000]

Kind of an interesting question about what it means to have a tech. If a remote village has laptop computers with solar chargers, do they have the Personal Computers and Solar Power techs? If they have Internet access via international satellites they can also access all the necessary information to manufacture computers. But they might not have the infrastructure (roads, power grid, skilled labor force, access to capital, etc.) to do so.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd I found major issue with Cloth (unlocking tech at Weaving is way too early):
To make it you need Wool (Weaver's Hut needs it, earliest accessible resource), that is unlocked at X15 with Animal Husbandry, while technically cloth is available at Weaving (X3).
Basically you can't make cloth until shortly before sedentary lifestyle.
This means at least 7 consumers must wait for cloth or other materials to be available.

Good catch! I'll have to update the cloth section with this and we'll soon figure out what should be done about it exactly.

 

[raxo2222]

@Dancing Hoskuld
Liangzhu jades aren't producable at all as you can't build needed culture wonder.
By the way why Asia has two cultures, that can make jade products for trade (Liangzhu, that is unused and Shang culture)?

Also basket maker and basket factory don't produce baskets unlike rope factory (it is under same rules) for example.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Dancing Hoskuld
Liangzhu jades aren't producable at all as you can't build needed culture wonder.
By the way why Asia has two cultures, that can make jade products for trade (Liangzhu, that is unused and Shang culture)?

Also basket maker and basket factory don't produce baskets unlike rope factory (it is under same rules) for example.

1. When I made the Liangzhu jade stuff it was buildable, I played a couple of games where I did build it, so don't know why they can't now. It was the first the Cultures I made.
2. Jade is important in Asian cultures why shouldn't there be two?
3. No idea and all that is going sometime anyway so don't care.

 

[raxo2222]

1. When I made the Liangzhu jade stuff it was buildable, I played a couple of games where I did build it, so don't know why they can't now. It was the first the Cultures I made.
2. Jade is important in Asian cultures why shouldn't there be two?
3. No idea and all that is going sometime anyway so don't care.

1.
Notice that <iCost>-1</iCost> in Liangzhu culture.

<BuildingInfo>
            <!-- Culture (Liangzhu) -->
            <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</BuildingClass>
            <Type>BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</Type>
            <SpecialBuildingType>SPECIALBUILDING_C2C_CULTURE</SpecialBuildingType>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</Description>
            <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
            <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
            <Advisor>ADVISOR_CULTURE</Advisor>
            <!-- Graphical and interface -->
            <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</ArtDefineTag>
            <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
            <!-- Prerequisites -->
            <VicinityBonus>BONUS_JADE</VicinityBonus>
            <BuildingClassNeededs>
                <BuildingClassNeeded>
                    <BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_GOOD_ASIAN</BuildingClassType>
                    <bNeededInCity>1</bNeededInCity>
                </BuildingClassNeeded>
            </BuildingClassNeededs>
            <!-- Construction -->
            <iCost>-1</iCost>
            <!-- Main effects -->
            <CommerceChanges>
                <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
                <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
                <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
            </CommerceChanges>
            <FreeBonus>BONUS_LIANGZHU</FreeBonus>
            <iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses>
            <!-- Special properties -->
            <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
            <iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
            <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
            <iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
        </BuildingInfo>

This is in nonmodule XML file: Cultures_CIV4BuildingInfos
Culture (Liangzhu) was unbuildable since SVN 8547 - that is since this file was added.
By the way Liangzhu isn't connected to any tech.
Since Liangzhu jade workshop needs Carving tech, you can add Carving (X8) tech prereq for this culture wonder.

2. Ah so Asia wants to flood market with jade stuff

3. It was like that since forever likely.
I guess someone made mistake somewhere and no one ever reported that.
These two (for factory and workshop)are commented out in Baskets_CIV4BuildingInfos (One of xmls in Module)
<!--FreeBonus>BONUS_BASKETS</FreeBonus>
<iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses-->
It was since this file was added in SVN 8948

Mistakes and other little things like these are so easy to find with Toffers interface overhaul.
Pedia is waaay faster with it, probably this is why no one even bothers with it when adding XML
things to mod.

It appears all culture (ones requiring continental culture and Neanderthal culture) wonders never got recosted.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

3. Of course they are commented out in that module. That is what it is about! This solves a number of problems including loosing access to a bonus because a building obsoletes before you can get round to building its replacement.

All of the free bonuses on all on the basket/rope/toy etc. buildings are commented out on the later buildings.

The first building no longer goes obsolete nor is it replaced so it provides the bonus. Meanwhile the later buildings provide the increase in income only. However you can't build the better buildings in every city, only some. The module is being replaced by a different method of reducing the number of buildings in the build queue.

 

[raxo2222]

3. Of course they are commented out in that module. That is what it is about! This solves a number of problems including loosing access to a bonus because a building obsoletes before you can get round to building its replacement.

All of the free bonuses on all on the basket/rope/toy etc. buildings are commented out on the later buildings.

The first building no longer goes obsolete nor is it replaced so it provides the bonus. Meanwhile the later buildings provide the increase in income only. However you can't build the better buildings in every city, only some. The module is being replaced by a different method of reducing the number of buildings in the build queue.

Ah so all of them do that, its fine then.

Should be cultures recosted?
For now all of these cultures + Neanderthal culture aren't recosted.

Here is reactivated version of Liangzhu culture.

       <BuildingInfo>
           <!-- Culture (Liangzhu) -->
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</Type>
           <SpecialBuildingType>SPECIALBUILDING_C2C_CULTURE</SpecialBuildingType>
           <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</Description>
           <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
           <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
           <Advisor>ADVISOR_CULTURE</Advisor>
           <!-- Graphical and interface -->
           <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_LIANGZHU_EMBASSY</ArtDefineTag>
           <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
           <!-- Prerequisites -->
           <PrereqTech>TECH_CARVING</PrereqTech>
           <VicinityBonus>BONUS_JADE</VicinityBonus>
           <BuildingClassNeededs>
               <BuildingClassNeeded>
                   <BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_GOOD_ASIAN</BuildingClassType>
                   <bNeededInCity>1</bNeededInCity>
               </BuildingClassNeeded>
           </BuildingClassNeededs>
           <!-- Construction -->
           <iCost>50</iCost>
           <!-- Main effects -->
           <CommerceChanges>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
               <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
           </CommerceChanges>
           <FreeBonus>BONUS_LIANGZHU</FreeBonus>
           <iNumFreeBonuses>1</iNumFreeBonuses>
           <!-- Special properties -->
           <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
           <iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
           <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
           <iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
       </BuildingInfo>

I added tech prereq of carving and cost of Aka culture, that is unlocked by Gathering.

Spoiler :

There are some culture wonders, that aren't requiring any terrain and features.
If you want you can use different tech and cost for this culture wonder.
All other culture wonders that were unbuildable had no prereqs at all.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

An iCost of -1 does not mean that a building can't be built. It just means it can't be built via . Usually a unit can build it. Which is probably why the don't need prerequisite techs, the unit has them.

Carving is not good for Liangzhu. It pre dates Sumer by about a millenium. However it is much later than the Venus carving. There is not a good tech for it. Mining is too late. Perhaps Celebration.

 

[raxo2222]

An iCost of -1 does not mean that a building can't be built. It just means it can't be built via . Usually a unit can build it. Which is probably why the don't need prerequisite techs, the unit has them.

Carving is not good for Liangzhu. It pre dates Sumer by about a millenium. However it is much later than the Venus carving. There is not a good tech for it. Mining is too late. Perhaps Celebration.

Celebration tech is fine too.
It got turned off with -1 cost as it didn't had tech prereq likely.
Culture wonders can't be built with units.
All other cultures with -1 cost doesn't have any prereqs as they aren't finished yet.
@Thunderbrd should be culture and Neanderthal wonders recosted?
Currently they have old costs.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Celebration tech is fine too.
It got turned off with -1 cost as it didn't had tech prereq likely.
Culture wonders can't be built with units.
All other cultures with -1 cost doesn't have any prereqs as they aren't finished yet.
@Thunderbrd should be culture and Neanderthal wonders recosted?
Currently they have old costs.

Anything can be built with units. You just put it in the units build list.

 

[raxo2222]

Anything can be built with units. You just put it in the units build list.

I know but it would be extremely weird, if only one culture would be buildable with unit.

Basically someone used -1 for cost instead of commenting out cultures without tech prereq, when system changed long time ago.
Basically Liangzhu culture is treated as placeholder culture like others without tech prereq.

Since it was one of first cultures that were added, its most likely it wasn't converted to new (still before 2017, may be even earlier) system.
If you want to activate it back, then you need to give some cost and tech prereq (You wanted Celebration tech) for it.

Probably you were on lengthy break or something, that they never notified you, that Liangzhu culture was deactivated, as new culture system was implemented.
Edit: It simply fell trough cracks in this thread.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I know but it would be extremely weird, if only one culture would be buildable with unit.

Basically someone used -1 for cost instead of commenting out cultures without tech prereq, when system changed long time ago.
Basically Liangzhu culture is treated as placeholder culture like others without tech prereq.

Since it was one of first cultures that were added, its most likely it wasn't converted to new (still before 2017, may be even earlier) system.
If you want to activate it back, then you need to give some cost and tech prereq (You wanted Celebration tech) for it.

Probably you were on lengthy break or something, that they never notified you, that Liangzhu culture was deactivated, as new culture system was implemented.
Edit: It simply fell trough cracks in this thread.

That was about the time frame Sparth started to Add his Culture Modmod to the Main Mod. His "cultures" and related "culture units" were made differently than the way cultures were made before and after.

The Culure modmod was completed and totally added into the Main mod and then Sparth left. Testing of his modmod prior to it's inclusion was only done by Sparth afaik. We all took him at his word and from trusting his modding discipline and skills.

Now you want to make changes.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It was one of the last Cultures added. I added it even after Sparth added his first lot. I probably could not find a good place for it or was planning on adding in a couple of spirituality techs but never did.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd should be culture and Neanderthal wonders recosted?

I left them alone because they all have a fixed cost that is not dependent on tech access. And because I'd prefer to eventually make them an autoemerge effect rather than something that gets constructed in the queue.

 

[raxo2222]

Now you want to make changes.

I just want Liangzhu culture to be buildable.
Currently this is only unadded culture (Unadded cultures have cost of -1), that has anything locked by it (trade resource and trade resource producing building).

As fo culture wonder costs I was just asking if it was intentional or not.

I left them alone because they all have a fixed cost that is not dependent on tech access. And because I'd prefer to eventually make them an autoemerge effect rather than something that gets constructed in the queue.

Ah so its fine then.
Wasn't sure if that was intentional or not.

Also is it same thing with Neaderthal culture?
That is Neaderthal culture wonder shouldn't be recosted?
Neaderthal culture like punks isn't tied to any continents.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It was one of the last Cultures added. I added it even after Sparth added his first lot. I probably could not find a good place for it or was planning on adding in a couple of spirituality techs but never did.

I knew this Culture was yours and I used to get it when ever I found jade. IDR having seen the Jade masks though lately. But that could be because I may not have had access to jade in recent games either. Any game save I had before 10043 have all been deleted.

 

[raxo2222]

I knew this Culture was yours and I used to get it when ever I found jade. IDR having seen the Jade masks though lately. But that could be because I may not have had access to jade in recent games either. Any game save I had before 10043 have all been deleted.

There are two other Jade items trading cultures: North American Olmec and Asian Shang too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also is it same thing with Neaderthal culture?
That is Neaderthal culture wonder shouldn't be recosted?
Neaderthal culture like punks isn't tied to any continents.

Not sure what I did or didn't do there. It's pretty qualified to be considered a bonafide world wonder I think. But it might've gotten lost in the rest of the culture list.

 

[raxo2222]

Not sure what I did or didn't do there. It's pretty qualified to be considered a bonafide world wonder I think. But it might've gotten lost in the rest of the culture list.

This world wonder wasn't recosted - it costs 50.
It is in Cultures_CIV4BuildingInfos
It is unlocked by CAVE_DWELLING, that is at X3.
According to building cost table it should cost 20*6 (World Wonder) = 120.