Research Request(s)

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I like it; one of the things that makes the Modern Era +/-1 the most annoying for me is the huge building list...

If only I had not lost Platyping's solution to this...

Side note: longer game speeds are only things, that influence building cost, but relationship between build cost and research speed isn't linear when changing game speed.
Exaggeration: Normal: one tech researched - one building built in mean time. Eternity: One tech researched - 4 buildings built in mean time. Game is probably something like this.
I wonder if longer speeds actually suffer less from building tide (suddenly a lot of buildings to build) around Modern era.

I am finding that in reality it is the other way round. Early on it is many buildings built while one tech is researched. Somewhere in the middle ages it becomes one building built in a production city to one tech researched. From there on it gets worse as I am getting multiple techs in the time it takes my production building to build one building. My other cities have no hope.

 

[raxo2222]

I am finding that in reality it is the other way round. Early on it is many buildings built while one tech is researched. Somewhere in the middle ages it becomes one building built in a production city to one tech researched. From there on it gets worse as I am getting multiple techs in the time it takes my production building to build one building. My other cities have no hope.

I'm talking about same era (capital and normal buildings too) in game with different game speeds
Map size and difficulty factors are constant.
Prehistoric
Normal: Several buildings build when you research tech in meantime.
Eternity: Even capital is very bored and builds units mainly.

Medieval
Normal: 1 building is built when 1 tech is researched.
Eternity: 3 buildings are built, when you research 1 tech.

Modern
Normal: 1 building is completed, but 3 techs got researched.
Eternity: 1 building is done, when 1 tech is researched.

That is slower speeds allegedly would be for simcity builders (building cities upwards).

Conclusion:
Bigger maps, slower game speeds: empire building.
Smaller maps, faster game speeds: warfare.
Difficulty: Warfare, but it also slow downs tech progress for player.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I am finding that in reality it is the other way round. Early on it is many buildings built while one tech is researched. Somewhere in the middle ages it becomes one building built in a production city to one tech researched. From there on it gets worse as I am getting multiple techs in the time it takes my production building to build one building. My other cities have no hope.

We still haven't determined if this is a general problem or only an issue on easier game difficulties like Noble, where the tech rate is coming in much faster due to lack of resistance handicaps, or whether it is just a problem for all handicap settings. I can certainly turn off or halve the build modification by era factor that was put in place to adapt to the opposite happening.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If only I had not lost Platyping's solution to this...

Is this saying you like or dislike the zoning answer to this issue?

 

[raxo2222]

We still haven't determined if this is a general problem or only an issue on easier game difficulties like Noble, where the tech rate is coming in much faster due to lack of resistance handicaps, or whether it is just a problem for all handicap settings. I can certainly turn off or halve the build modification by era factor that was put in place to adapt to the opposite happening.

Hmmm fausmouse complained about building deluge for Industrial - Information eras too.
Probably lowering building speed modifier would help.

iConstruct speeds for following eras:
Pre/Anc/Cla/Med/Ren/Ind/Mod/Inf/Nan/TH/Gal/Cos/Tra
60---80-100 120 140 160 180 200 220 240 260 280 300

But still its hard to balance Noble/Normal/Standard and Deity/Eternity/Giant to keep cities not too busy with buildings and not too bored on both extreme ends.

 

[tmv]

Every coastal city can generate salt with these buildings...

As it is right now, obsoleting could really make things worse, mostly from Nanotech on. Salt is needed for Borax, Magnesium and Potash (these three are not so important) and for Lithium, and without Lithium, many buildings and units from Nanotech+ are impossible to build:

Lead + Salt ==(Lithium Mine)=> Lithium ==(Oxidation F.)=> Electrolyte Cells (+ Platinum ==(Hydraulic F.)=> Exoskeletons)

Exoskeletons + Aluminum + Nanotubes + Titanium ==(Mech Assembly Plant)=> Mechs

Exoskeletons + Biopolymers ==(Bionics F.)=> Bionic Suits

Lithium is in fact more important than a few map resources, and if you only have the map resource salt, lithium could easily be unbuildable on the entire map (I don't think a mapscript makes sure these boni are possible). You have one civilization that is in Nanotech / Transhuman and cannot build either Mechs or Bionic Suits, and is suddenly worse off than a civ in Information Age.

I know that we are far from having these eras balanced, but introducing such problems still shouldn't happen.

 

[Faustmouse]

Yeah I know that; I also got Joseph wrong and didn't thought about the obsoleting while writing that. I agree with you on the Lithium issue; Salt should be rare-ish in the early - midgame and commonplace in the later stages. Lithium, if it is so important, probably should not be a combo resource!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, we aren't getting more comments on Charcoal and hopefully people have read my replies on that subject so as to have an idea of what this discussion is headed towards. We've had a lot of great conversation on these first two (and more) resources so let's continue with:
CARCASS

• • What buildings in the game produce it now?
  • Where is it applied in the game now?
  • How does it benefit a society to have access to it?
  • Would this create problems to have access?
  • Does this obsolete? Obviously you don't go down to Smith's (grocery store) and pickup a dead carcass much these days.
  • Does the ability for prehistoric man to convert this to OTHER resources with industrial buildings justify it as a resource?
  • Is it assumable to be accessed, even for scavenging pre-hunting mankind?
  • If so, should we keep this as a resource? Or is it performing a valuable 'flavor' (ew) function for the prehistoric era?
  
  Let's hear it guys!

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

One of the ways that c2c development threatens to run away from you is where each game piece is regarded as an end in itself. To contrast, look at Civ VI (it hurts, I know). that game simulates growth, housing, amenities, production, specialized development, city sprawling, and some other things. If you were to consider introducing a types system, or a system of labels, to the resources/assets that the player has and manages, your mission as the backend developer would be to support the meanings just found in these identified goals, abstracted as they are. A local resource has meaning to perhaps be an amenity, perhaps power the economy of the city. You can run out the list of things it does.

But C2C... likes simulation. The game IS this ability to look at how exactly your army's tactics work, where each city gets its food from, every last detail of its industries... the "description" never stops.

I'm just saying it astounds me C2C exists. Again.

 

[Noriad2]

Carcass opens up the slaughterhouse/butchery building line which gives raw meat which is necessary for the very valuable omega child crew.
Slaughterhouse also give bones which is necessary for bone huts. Although it is also possible to build a slaughterhouse with poulty, allowing you to build houses from chicken bones. Which are ... probably less impressive than houses made from mammoth bones.

 

[tmv]

Carcass is needed for Hide (Skinner), which is needed for the Tannery, Animal Hide Tents and (as one possible requirement) for clothing. It is also one possible requirement (and often the easiest to obtain) for the Slaughterhouse, which produces Bones and allows the Butchery (and further buildings in that line, like Meatpacking Plant) to be built.

 

[pepper2000]

I add those obsolescence tags on Salt. My reasoning is that, as long as you have a coastal city, you can get salt from the Desalination Plant by then. I will get rid of those tags in my next SVN update.

 

[Septentrion]

Carcass

I think with preserves coming into the picture, a meat collapse might be possible.

The way I see it, It's a sort of "I have large animal" flag. It keep meat related buildings from having 15 different animal-OR requirements. You can't talk about carcass without talking about the entire meat industry in C2C, but I think it's removable. I'm not sure if I would axe it though. The hunting camps and herds could produce the Raw Meat/Poultry/Bone resource instead.

I thought it would be likely be filtered in the modernish eras with modern cow farms implying built in slaughterhouses, these producing Raw Meat and not the prehistoric-flavored carcass. However, the prehistoric implication is that bones are more important than meat(slaughterhouse before butchery). Should slaughterhouses also be butcheries in the prehistoric times? I think the pipeline may be too long in C2C where in RL the hunter kills it, and the hunter and his wife prepares it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Which are ... probably less impressive than houses made from mammoth bones.

I suppose it depends on how you are measuring impressions. Sure mammoth bones would be a larger hut I'd assume. But if anyone could show me a home made from chicken bones, I might be pretty impressed by the effort that went into it! We're not really focused on bones atm but perhaps we should have a distinction between small and large bones? You can't really build with small bones, nor use them as effective weapons. But some tools maybe, like early needles.

So from the comments so far, am I to assume that these Carcasses are 'fresh' kills? Or are they half dead and rotten like some deer I've seen by the side of the road? I'd be a little dubious of such meat.

What are the sources of this resource? Could it/should it be sidestepped and we use a number of OR resource prereqs instead, like pigs, cow, deer, etc...?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Having Carcass as a resource simplifies a number of buildings and their lines. At the time it was implemented a building could only produce one resource and I think that was the main driver. Now that they can produce more then perhaps all the hunting camp buildings need to be revisited. They would produce

• raw meat
• small or large bones
• antlers or horns
  
• feathers
• hide or fur

Ratite farms produce fine leather at some point, although I think that is only the Ostrich and Emu farms. Can't remember if the Moa and Elephant Bird are a ratites or not. The Terror Birds are not. Not sure about the Paleolothic Malleefowl but the Demon Duck of Doom wasn't.

 

[Raledon]

I think a carcass should be cut into:

• bones
  • may be used as early weaponry (before stone?)
  • source of food (bone marrow)
  • possible bonus for certain buildings, such as the magic shop, festival and such
• meat
  • source of food
  • easier taming of animals
• fat
  • source of food
  • used for soap
• hide -> same as current hide product
• antlers/fur/feathers(and so on, depending on the carcass source)
  • each will should have its unique cultural tribal wear
  • feathers for pillow/cushions?
  • antler for various horns

In addition, a carcass could be used by itself to be put on the wall, in a museum, research or a doctor/veterinar training.

 

[raxo2222]

There are all Carcass requiring buildings.

Spoiler :

There are 50 carcass producers.
50 screenshots are in attachment.

Hunter camps: Antelope, Auroch, Bison, Boar, Caribou, Deer, Diprotodon, Elephant, Emu, Giant Bison, Giraffe, Hippo, Kangaroo, Mammoth, Megaloceros, Megatherium, Moose, Mouflon, Muskox, Narwhal, Ostrich, Rhea, Rhino, Walrus, Whalers Dock, Woolly Rhino, Zebra.
Farms: Cow, Goat, Oxen, Pig, Reindeer, Sheep.
Herds: Bison, Buffalo, Camel, Cow, Deer, Donkey, Elephant, Horse, Goat, Muskox, Pig, Ratite (Flock), Kangaroo (Mob), Sheep, Llama, Mammoth, Zebra.
World Wonder: Mammoth Trainer.

All hunter camps have +1 unhappiness with Ecology, and add +1 of food/gold/production depending on animal.
Most of them obsolete at Ecological Engineering.
Some of them obsolete at different points:
Sedimentary Lifestyle - Auroch, Diptotodon, Giant Bison, Megaloceros, Megatherium, Woolly Rhino - those are prehistoric animals most likely.
Marine Architecture: Whaler's Dock

Farms obsolete at Mainstream Cloning, and they have +1% food bonus with certain resources being present.

Herds also provide different animal bonuses. They never obsolete, some of them require canine domestication.
Ratite flocks need poultry and megafauna domestication.
They also have minor gold/production/food bonus depending on animal.

And then there is world wonder - Mammoth Trainer, that needs Megafauna Domestication and gets obsolete with Armored Vehicles.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

In the Stone and Ancient Ages antlers are a tool used very much like a modern pickaxe.

 

[Faustmouse]

My 2 cents on Carcass: It is cool early game to get the players into dependency chains. Sure we can get rid of it, but this is true for most content in C2C. It adds flavour as well. But I think in later eras, the animals (like Cows) should direktly being transformed into meat, obsoleting (or esentially obsoleting) carcasses.

 

[Septentrion]

Antlers=deer

Antlers are also more primitive than stone tools. Maybe a hammer from the deer-hunter's camp would equal that.
Dining Hall or another building having + 1 from deer would be the representation if we want that level of detail.