Research Request(s)

I thought it does more like the opposite by offering the omega children some meaningful way to contribute to the society? Production increase that it gives is certainly welcome in the early game.
I don't think that's right. For starters, it would not obsolete at Humanism of all techs. Second, that kind of thinking doesn't belong into Early Prehistory, or indeed to anything before Modern Era (about the same point as Minority Rights, I would assume).
 
I don't think that's right. For starters, it would not obsolete at Humanism of all techs. Second, that kind of thinking doesn't belong into Early Prehistory, or indeed to anything before Modern Era (about the same point as Minority Rights, I would assume).

You could be right. Oh well, let's hope that the omegae find some meaning in their organized daily labors.
 
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Its just hard to watch since most of these resources chains I developed (for better or worse). Its like seeing your constructed Lego creation being taken apart to make something else. Sure the new creation might be better but it still is hard for me to see you guys remove my work. :(

As for Ash it was mainly added to the game to make Lye.
 
Its just hard to watch since most of these resources chains I developed (for better or worse). Its like seeing your constructed Lego creation being taken apart to make something else. Sure the new creation might be better but it still is hard for me to see you guys remove my work. :(

As for Ash it was mainly added to the game to make Lye.
I wasn't looking for reasons to delete. But given the ones that were brought up, it was hard to debate for its inclusion. So far its the only one and I'm pretty sure it will prove to BE the only one. This is probably going to get a lot more additive than subtractive on this course.
 
The term "Omega child" seems to describe a neglected / abused / bullied child. It doesn't seem to be unique to humans - group of animals will also have "omega" members, along with "alpha" and "beta" individuals.
So this building simulates the systematic exploitation of some members of the tribe by the community?
I've always thought this was what it was supposed to mean, yes. Child labor camps where most kids are exploited. So much for torture being the most unpalatable thing in the game huh?
 
Maybe it is the other way : children had to spend all their time looking for food (for themselves but also for the rest of tribe) instead of working on other tasks.
Once the tribe gained access to high energy food (meat, eggs, fish), this was not required anymore.
I believe this was the intent of the modder. If you have these foods then all children are more useful to the tribe.
 
OK, Eggs. Further things to discuss before closing them out noted by ->

There are 9 Egg producers and 3 Egg consumers.
Producers
Chicken Coop - BUILDING_CHICKEN_COOP
Duck Farm - BUILDING_DUCK
Goose Farm - BUILDING_GOOSE_FARM
Nest Thief - BUILDING_NEST_THIEF (Raw Vicinity of Poultry prereq)
Sea Turtle Egg Gatherer - BUILDING_SEATURTLE_EGG_GATHERER
Turkey Farm - BUILDING_TURKEY_FARM
Herd - Poultry (Flock) - BUILDING_POULTRY_HERD
Herd - Ratite (Flock) - BUILDING_RATITE_HERD
Synthetic Meat Bioreactor - BUILDING_SYNTHETIC_MEAT_BIOREACTOR

->Many of these, the flocks, come from successful hunting. The Coop and Farms, these are agricultural. I'm trying to think of how to best categorize EGGS as a resource. Should it be a Ranch resource, a Farm resource, a Plantation resource? Or should it be its own type of category? What improvement goes on Poultry bonuses on a plot? What does it upgrade into?

Consumers (prerequisites but not currently a modifier to the benefits of the building)
Diner - BUILDING_DINER (AND prereq)
Omega Child Crew - BUILDING_OMEGACREW (OR prereq)
Pancake House - BUILDING_PANCAKE_HOUSE (AND prereq)

->All these make sense and furthermore I don't think eggs would modify since they are either required or fulfill a requirement concept. Are there other buildings we have that should probably also require eggs but currently don't? Any that should be modified by eggs? Like, perhaps a grocer?

Possible ways to further include it in the game
Many vaccines for infectious diseases are produced in fertile chicken eggs. The basis of this technology was the discovery in 1931 by Alice Miles Woodruff and Ernest William Goodpasture at Vanderbilt University that the rickettsia and viruses that cause a variety of diseases will grow in chicken embryos. This enabled the development of vaccines against influenza, chicken pox, smallpox, yellow fever, typhus, Rocky mountain spotted fever and other diseases.
- Wikipedia

->In O&A, we'll have the ability to have some buildings convert the existence of a resource into a bonus in overcoming and resisting a particular disease. So it sounds like this will be one for those diseases, operating through some lab building(s).

Potential consumer
Bakery - If not an outright prereq, should at least be a major modifier... a lot that can be baked requires eggs
-> further suggestions - can we think of more?
Donut shop - as the Bakery
Wedding Catering - same reason - cakes
Food court
Grocer
(some of these distributor sources should be completely rethought as a chain of buildings through the ages though)

Discussion point
->
There are two trade or wonder versions of eggs - decorated Emu Eggs and Faberge Eggs. I don't think either actually requires eggs.
Should they? They probably require the creatures that leave eggs... should those then become a source of eggs as well?
 
I'm trying to think of how to best categorize EGGS as a resource. Should it be a Ranch resource, a Farm resource, a Plantation resource? Or should it be its own type of category? What improvement goes on Poultry bonuses on a plot? What does it upgrade into?
Are you looking at changing the BONUSCLASS of these resources? That is used in some map scripts to balance things and it is used in the pedia also.

I can't remember if I put the language fix in to the C2C pedia or not. I did for Platyping's pedia. In the default pedia the name of the class is taken from the variable name ie BONUSCLASS_XYZ_ABC becomes "Xyz Abc" so is always in the language of the coder.
 
Are you looking at changing the BONUSCLASS of these resources? That is used in some map scripts to balance things and it is used in the pedia also
No... an additional type of categorization for the sake of the zoning definitions on the buildings that generate them.
 
Eggs are used mostly in food, so I assume the buildings you listed covers it.
Another use of eggs is in culture- easter eggs, pelting bad performers, or (so I hear) buildings of people halloween. Giving theatre +1 culture with eggs may show that.
The egg shell seems to have a few uses, such as making chalk.
 
Eggs are used mostly in food, so I assume the buildings you listed covers it.
Another use of eggs is in culture- easter eggs, pelting bad performers, or (so I hear) buildings of people halloween. Giving theatre +1 culture with eggs may show that.
The egg shell seems to have a few uses, such as making chalk.

Also if we don't have this the Shellfish resource can be used to make Lime. In addition to the method with limestone.
 
First comment on a new account. Never felt the need to make an account on this forum, but been following the mod itself for years.

A lot of the food-type resources should give percentage food yield bonuses, because it represents knowing how to work with the resource just as much as having it (for the most part the first implies the other), and therefore generally speaking should mean that the more food you have available, the more of it you actually know how to work with. They usually already do, just on buildings instead of with the resource proper (which is fairly understandable). When you list 'consumer' buildings you also need to take into account the ones that don't have it as a prerequisite (hard or soft) but instead look at it and say 'okay +1% :food: / :gold:, this means it is using the resource'. Obviously eggs are used almost ubiquitously in food.

I've always thought this was what it was supposed to mean, yes. Child labor camps where most kids are exploited. So much for torture being the most unpalatable thing in the game huh?
I don't know about this. To begin with, the concept that children working is equivalent to exploitation is both modern and not even globally accepted. The fact is that children can't actually do much complex work anyway (which is why the rise in 'true' public child labor came with industrialization and factory tasks, as these were extraordinarily simple tasks that required little to not training); what the children would realistically be doing is simple, not-very-physically demanding, but tedious work such as sorting nuts, butchering animals, finding shellfish in tidepools, and so on.
 
I suppose today's parents and children have no concept any more what chores are or were. It was not that long ago that every family member that was old enough had tasks assigned to help the whole family thru the day. Omega child labor does not represent for the time frame it is used in the game as Labor camps. Unless you go into Hollywood thinking mode and think Conan the Destroyer is your basis.
 
@Joe
So are you saying that they are in fact labor camps, or the opposite (it's not entirely clear to me)? To me the Omega Child Crew is about the children of the tribe contributing somewhat-meaningfully to its operation - this is reflected in what actually increases the hammer value; things like baskets, which make the kids actually be able to carry nuts. I mean if nothing else I think it's obvious that with a population of 100-500 people in a tribe, they can ill afford to make the omega children slaves, if for no other reason than the practical one of not being able to afford alienating their parents, and the potential opportunity cost of getting one of them killed by overworking them. It just doesn't make any sense, they're valuable enough when the population is that small that you simply cannot waste them as 'slaves' - they're just doing normal menial work that any other child is also doing.
 
@Joe
So are you saying that they are in fact labor camps, or the opposite (it's not entirely clear to me)? To me the Omega Child Crew is about the children of the tribe contributing somewhat-meaningfully to its operation - this is reflected in what actually increases the hammer value; things like baskets, which make the kids actually be able to carry nuts. I mean if nothing else I think it's obvious that with a population of 100-500 people in a tribe, they can ill afford to make the omega children slaves, if for no other reason than the practical one of not being able to afford alienating their parents, and the potential opportunity cost of getting one of them killed by overworking them. It just doesn't make any sense, they're valuable enough when the population is that small that you simply cannot waste them as 'slaves' - they're just doing normal menial work that any other child is also doing.
I think this is what he meant - menial job, so kids are at least useful and busy.
Since it gets production bonus from baskets, flint, pottery, stone tools and tools (Metal tools bonus should override stone tools production bonus by the way) it seems like their job is carrying stuff and doing stuff involved with flint and tools.
It also needs unorganized or community labor.
Basically doing simple chores in way, that boosts productivity of entire tribe.
 
A lot of the food-type resources should give percentage food yield bonuses, because it represents knowing how to work with the resource just as much as having it (for the most part the first implies the other), and therefore generally speaking should mean that the more food you have available, the more of it you actually know how to work with. They usually already do, just on buildings instead of with the resource proper (which is fairly understandable). When you list 'consumer' buildings you also need to take into account the ones that don't have it as a prerequisite (hard or soft) but instead look at it and say 'okay +1% :food: / :gold:, this means it is using the resource'. Obviously eggs are used almost ubiquitously in food.
First off, thanks for speaking up! In discussions like these, the more voices, the better. I feel you're showing strong insight here with this comment. This points exactly towards the whole reason for this discussion. I'm wanting to start making access to resources mean more than a small +1 health here or there or just as prerequisites for buildings, particularly in the trade goods that buildings can generate. It's a two or three part concept, depending on how you want to look at it.

Project goal #1: Make it more difficult to amass all of the manufactured resources and spur trade of them more often. Achieved by establishing limits to how many buildings of a resource generating nature can be constructed in a city and base those limits on the nature of the industry taking place in that location in the tiles that city owns, thus also making the choices of how to improve the plots around the city to be based on MORE than just maximizing yields. Do this by defining categories of industry and call them zones. Improvements on surrounding tiles and some generic buildings create zones for the city. Not all buildings require an unused zone but many buildings do require a zone of a particular type, and when built, consume that zone, potentially making one have to choose between a number of options as to what to have the city produce (or change how you're working the land so you can open up other zones you may need for buildings you want). Commercial zones for markets and such (coming from 'town' improvements, for example) would also compete for space.

Project Goal #2: Make it clear that there are buildings that generate resources and buildings that consume or represent the consumption OF resources (and sometimes ones that convert one to another or do both create and apply, but still make it clear how the resource is going through both steps). And you pretty much nailed it on the head as to how I want to achieve that. The only exception to what you suggested is that I'm wanting to introduce new tags for %/+/- yield/commerce/happy/healthy/XP/XP to UnitCombat etc PER population (out to two decimals in most cases) with access to Bonus. By doing so, we should really be able to make nearly every bonus significant and have a lot of granularity to work with in game balancing the impact of buildings and bonuses.

I don't know about this. To begin with, the concept that children working is equivalent to exploitation is both modern and not even globally accepted. The fact is that children can't actually do much complex work anyway (which is why the rise in 'true' public child labor came with industrialization and factory tasks, as these were extraordinarily simple tasks that required little to not training); what the children would realistically be doing is simple, not-very-physically demanding, but tedious work such as sorting nuts, butchering animals, finding shellfish in tidepools, and so on.
A nicer outlook. Perhaps if the bonus wasn't so strong one might not be led to think the children are ruthlessly made to work themselves nearly to death. There's also other factors involved. If it means fairly heavy duty labor for a kid, it could increase the mortality rate (unhealth) but also make them stronger, thus +XP to units. That could also be part of its production benefit, not just what the kids bring to the community directly, but what the way they are raised making them more productive adults as well. Also also labor is the bane of the artist since play and freedom and time to explore and express are what develops creativity, thus the building should probably also penalize culture (rather severely I'd think.) And it doesn't sound like a happy way to grow up and could be begrudged a bit, thus some unhappiness from the building sounds right. If it's just a couple hours of chores a day, I'd say the building effects are far too strong. So perhaps we could have a couple of options as to what you choose to build, one that's more hardcore, one that's less, and then perhaps one that is in direct opposition to the concept that fosters total child freedom from effort, each one being an exclusive local decision for that community that once constructed, cuts you off from being able to construct the other. Perhaps we should also consider child work crews that operate in the fields with the women, bringing in food instead of helping the builders of the tribe with construction tasks or early training programs. Going down this road of thinking, we could end up with some interesting 'local civic' building options that may be a choice for cities in many eras to come, not just at this stage. Perhaps this should be divorced from overall civics as prerequisites?

Just some thoughts.
 
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