Resolved: The Ballista Elephant Is the Crappiest UU in the Game

[UncleJJ]

I'm not sure if it's possible to Mod this easily but a solution to the problem of having a UU that can't be built might be to do two things. First make it resourceless but increase the hammer cost (to say 100 hammers). Then if the player had ivory he'd get a +100% production bonus for Ballista Elephants making them cost approximately the same as they do now.

So without ivory you'd have an expensive resourceless UU and with ivory something similar to what is available now. Would that work? Adjust the added hammer cost and maybe % bonus to get a proper game balance.

Edit: I am not sure if this has already been suggested in this old thread and I'm not going to read through all that again

 

[Diamondeye]

I'm not sure if it's possible to Mod this easily but a solution to the problem of having a UU that can't be built might be to do two things. First make it resourceless but increase the hammer cost (to say 100 hammers). Then if the player had ivory he'd get a +100% production bonus for Ballista Elephants making them cost approximately the same as they do now.

So without ivory you'd have an expensive resourceless UU and with ivory something similar to what is available now. Would that work? Adjust the added hammer cost and maybe % bonus to get a proper game balance.

Edit: I am not sure if this has already been suggested in this old thread and I'm not going to read through all that again

Good solution. And afaik, not suggested before. Care to mod it and try it for us?

 

[SharpMango]

two points.
I've read all TEN pages today. great arguments and counters.
and yep, its been resolved, the ballista is the 'crappiest' UU in the entire game.
a couple of points.

someone who said the carrack is crapper should be taken out and stampeded by an elephant. Seriously? with a carrack you have an ocean crossing vessel, its got decent defences for its time and u can found new colonies, or if you REALLY want, launch a mid-sized invasion force long before anyone's expecting it...
another thing, i often get a lot of wonders which get obsolete due to astronomy...esp colossus, which is massively vital in island/archiplego maps...the carrack allows me to delay astronomy for as long as possible.....

secondly......

make the ballista elephants resourceless??? your having a laugh mate!....they're elephants, and they need the elephant resource...and dont give me any barney about longbowmen not needing resources etc. what do u want to do? herd humans? have a human resource? all the animals need resources, think logically here....unless you want to make some fantasy mod about phantom cambodian elephants...!

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

I have never tried em but the ONE thing that kinda bugs me bout this UU is I always picture this scenario in my head...

Uh oh big stack of macemen heading our way. No biggies we have shock balista elles Go sick em boys!!!. NOOOO!! atack the maces NOT thier chariot medic grrrrrrrrrrr BAD ELLES!!

I think a better uni trait would be instead of making them auto target mounteds somehow make em attack best defender like normal and then do collataral damage to any mounted units in stack like horse units do to siege.

Kaytie

 

[zebomba2]

Killing the medic is usually a high priority (ever heard "kill the doc first!" in MMOs? ) and maces are easy. Build crossbows and laugh.

 

[madscientist]

Well I will pipe in again after thinking it over.

The Balista is the worse UU. Just nothing redeeming about it.

Carracks on teh other hand are the BEST UU on a Terra or Archeoplego map.

 

[Chairo Hisui]

Is there a way to make them collateral? Take away their current benefit and replacing it with a Chukonu style killer.

Although I guess from hearing all these things about its actual effectiveness sounds good. A Portugal or Dutch on a land locked map/pangea sounds just as useless as Khmer without Ivory.

 

[Roxlimn]

madscientist

Wha?!?! Where'd that come from?

 

[Diamondeye]

someone who said the carrack is crapper should be taken out and stampeded by an elephant. Seriously? with a carrack you have an ocean crossing vessel, its got decent defences for its time and u can found new colonies, or if you REALLY want, launch a mid-sized invasion force long before anyone's expecting it...

The point of that poster was that the Carrack, like the BE, is situational. Great UU when there's no water around, huh?

another thing, i often get a lot of wonders which get obsolete due to astronomy...esp colossus, which is massively vital in island/archiplego maps...the carrack allows me to delay astronomy for as long as possible.....

Delaying Astro is usually not worth it on these maps because you need Ocean-traderoutes.

madscientist

Wha?!?! Where'd that come from?

 

[Roxlimn]

Chairo Hisui:

Except that you can't trade for NOT being landlocked. You CAN trade for Ivory.

 

[SharpMango]

The point of that poster was that the Carrack, like the BE, is situational. Great UU when there's no water around, huh?


Delaying Astro is usually not worth it on these maps because you need Ocean-traderoutes.

Lol, put it like that......they're ALL situational ...
its true, astro gives good benefits from the trade routes...sometimes..its a tough call to make though....sometimes my economy's fallen by 20-30 percent when i get astro....sometimes it goes through the roof, it really depends on the....situation!

 

[Chairo Hisui]

Eh, with further thought I kinda see the problem. When you have the East Indianman you've got a terror that can own the sea until someone gets Frigates on you. When you have the BE you can... single out horses. Sure it's situational, but even when the situation arrives the BE is still kinda lacking.

Ya couldn't have given it an extra attack point or something Firaxis!?!!

 

[Diamondeye]

Eh, with further thought I kinda see the problem. When you have the East Indianman you've got a terror that can own the sea until someone gets Frigates on you. When you have the BE you can... single out horses. Sure it's situational, but even when the situation arrives the BE is still kinda lacking.

Ya couldn't have given it an extra attack point or something Firaxis!?!!

Have you tried fighting stacks of Numidian Cavalry+Spears?
Or what about Knights+musketeers? BEs have a huge boost against civs such as France, Carthage, Mongols and Russia.

And besides, screw the EI. It's dominance at sea is shortlived if you're not ahead in tech, and if you are, get to frigates. Simple as that. The really good UU in this case is the Carrack.

 

[Andvare]

I have found it to be quite useful in my MP games. But then I usually play against a friend that loved to beeline knights. Against the AI, or MP players not going for knights (or at least realizing how easy the are to counter with the BE), they don't add up to much. That coupled with the rarest strat-resource makes them not worth alot.

 

[Roxlimn]

Seriously? The AI likes mounted units. Mounted units doing flank damage on YOUR siege units is a big deal. Getting Ellies is a huge boost to any war plan. Aside from raw strength, they also defend well against HAs. BE's are one step above that. Against an opposing stack with mounted units, it singles out and kills the mounted units so that they'll be less able to take out your siege equipment. That's a big deal.

So you don't get to use Elephants often. So what? You don't get to use any specific kind of unit that often. An exception might be made for mainstay units like HAs or Axemen or LBs - that kind of unit. However, most of the time, you won't be warring constantly and most of the units you could have used will usually just be sitting doing nothing. Yes, a Hwacha's unit graphic is prettier. I like pretty graphics, too. However, in the final offing, being pretty counts for nothing.

If the map calls for bypassing Praetorians for superior play, by god, I'm going to skip them!

 

[madscientist]

Sorry for any confusion. I noticed that the Carracks were being discussed (Sharp Mango's post) and added my opinion of them.

Given a Terra Map or Archeopolego where there is ALOT of unclaimed territory the Carrack is hands down the best UU because you can get settlers onto those new lands much faster than another AI.

 

[BYC]

lol I don't see the problem, all units should have some kind of weakness... well maybe except the Prat. Besides the only tiem I could see it having problems with spears is when you don't have any other unit in your stack to counter spears on the defensive or whne you're attacking a stack that doesn't have any Mounted units.

Can you imagine how overpowered a resourceless 8 str UU would be that early in the game?

Heh, considering how people STILL . .. .. .. .. . about praets (rightfully so), resourceless elephants would be...insane. I still think it needs something though.

 

[pangu]

I would say the Mongol Keshik, simply because I hardly ever build Horse Archers at all, even though I often have Horses and Horseback Riding. The fact that it ignores terrain is somewhat mitigated by the fact that if you traipse it all around the map by itself, it's going to get killed by enemy Spearmen. So really, what use is its terrain movement advantage?

I actually believe that Keshik is the best UU in the entire game. At monarch with 6 AIs standard speed Pangrea settings, I frequently take out 3 or sometimes even 4 AIs purely with Keshiks before I see longbows and before my economy crash. The speed which they can wipe an AI off a map is amazing.

 

[champ82]

Some things to consider…

1.) Before having rifles it would be unwise to mess with a neighboring Khmer with ivory. Think about it, construction and horseback riding come a long time before rifling and military tradition. And since they can hone in on your mounted units, a pike man isn’t adequate protection. Anyways, an elephant with a melee promotion can take out a pike man. I had Khmer as a neighbor, they got their Ballistas pretty early and I was glad I was friendly with them.

2.) The Ballista elephant’s trait of seeking and destroying the mounted unit in a stack is the only unit in the game that has this seek and destroy trait. I’m figuring that’s got to be worth something.

3.) Keep them in your border cities. If any foe comes at you with any mounted unit before cavalry, boom, 1 invasion unit automatically dead. Since Khmer is creative it’s unlikely that a mounted unit could reach your city on the same turn they declare war.

4.) The idea of using elephants for warfare is really cool / fun. The idea of putting giant crossbows on them is even cooler / funner.

I often “customize” or “personalize” my civs. I played and one as Khmer on prince but renamed them “Stankonia.” The people of Stankonia excelled at reproducing and making cool music (EXP/CRE). They weren’t the most productive (actually they were because of their superior population) or academically inclined people since I was playing on Prince (I think we can guess the explanation of this, they spent a lot of their time partying, and, er, “chilling.&#8221

They were one of my most endearing and charming civilizations, in part because they did not have ivory. I imagined my top military scientists, um, “chilling” and being like “I have an idea for a great military advantage. So we take elephants, right…”

“Sir, we have no elephants to speak of,”

“Just listen to me man. So, if WE DID HAVE elephants though, we could put giant crossbows on them…”

“Sounds awesome. I don’t even know where you are going with this, but I fully support this idea, sir.”

Eventually I got someone to trade ivory with me. It was before shortly before my neighbors had rifles and military tradition so it wasn’t useless.

 

[Crowqueen]

They should be like Cho-Ko-Nu and provide collateral damage.

Seriously though, I agree with the point about the Carracks/East Indiamen. At the moment I am playing games which involve a lot of overseas fighting and finding proper ships from which to launch an invasion is difficult. Luckily I can use galleys on Big-and-Small to launch a proper invasion fleet but I - for about the first time - had to beeline Astrology just to get ships able to carry more than two units at a time. I think I am going to play the Dutch next (Fin/Cre yes please!) so that I get the benefits of Gilgamesh's post-Astrology creativity (because I also make Stonehenge a priority otherwise) combined with access to a ship that has extra capacity and extra ability to scout out civilisations with which you don't have OBs.

As for the elephants, I've never played the Khmer, but I'd like to see collateral damage added to the ballista before playing elephants. Because HAs->Knights->Cuirassiers->Cavalry are pretty good anyway, why bother with a slow "nellie"?