Hmm, I think that if you buffed the other civs a lot and (possibly) coded it so they rush the Illians after a certain number of turns (hopefully with quite a few built up troops) it would make the whole thing much more flavorful, as you would have to actually send troops up to guard the Illians. Then you would probably have much better fights for the remainder of the game as the AI could put up (hopefully) more resistance.
Return of Winter feedback
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Hmm, I think that if you buffed the other civs a lot and (possibly) coded it so they rush the Illians after a certain number of turns (hopefully with quite a few built up troops) it would make the whole thing much more flavorful, as you would have to actually send troops up to guard the Illians. Then you would probably have much better fights for the remainder of the game as the AI could put up (hopefully) more resistance.
Avahz Darkwood
Emperor
1. Go by the story line and set a starting battle with a small number of Doviello Axemen vs Bannor Swordsman. Your band can be all that stands between them and the razing of the city of Gnollistan. Once it's over then the build up and conquer phase can begin.
2. Give a tech advantage to all civs, so that the units built will have a bit more teeth.
3. Instead of two unthematic FOL priest, give them generic priests of winter (I am not sure if this event happens in this one or not).
4. Fill the long slog with a bunch of thematic event.
2. Give a tech advantage to all civs, so that the units built will have a bit more teeth.
3. Instead of two unthematic FOL priest, give them generic priests of winter (I am not sure if this event happens in this one or not).
4. Fill the long slog with a bunch of thematic event.
I enjoyed this scenario. It was a simple game that lasted a couple of hours. It should be recommended for beginning players as an early scenario since many of the features of FfH are either disabled (religion) or unnecessary for completion (magic, later tier units). The simplicity of this scenario lends it self to being a good introduction for new players.
Many of the recommendations posted by Avahz Darkwood are spot on. I especially like the recommendation to change the gifted priests from FoL to Winter.
Another recommendation would be to gift units to the remaining AI opponents as each civ is killed. The AI should also be scripted to more aggresively attack the Illians. These two recommendations in tandem should make the goal of defending the Illians tougher. In my game. the Illians just cranked out scouts and explored the map and the AI opponents generally left them alone. At one point the Kuriotates did take one Illian city, but it was very easy for me to take back and gift to my ally. There was really no sense of urgency and the game felt like a mop up after I built my first (followed by a second and third) SOD.
Many of the recommendations posted by Avahz Darkwood are spot on. I especially like the recommendation to change the gifted priests from FoL to Winter.
Another recommendation would be to gift units to the remaining AI opponents as each civ is killed. The AI should also be scripted to more aggresively attack the Illians. These two recommendations in tandem should make the goal of defending the Illians tougher. In my game. the Illians just cranked out scouts and explored the map and the AI opponents generally left them alone. At one point the Kuriotates did take one Illian city, but it was very easy for me to take back and gift to my ally. There was really no sense of urgency and the game felt like a mop up after I built my first (followed by a second and third) SOD.
blacknight
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 56
Treasure Chest... Ok, how do I get the chest in the pond? I built a city and could build harbor, lighthouse, fishing boat, and even drydock, but nothing that could carry men. I had Fishing and Sailing.
jprc
My dog is smarter than me
1.5 years after starting FFH, I play the various scenarii, and in "return of Winter", it is the 1st time I play the Doviello as I was never tempted to do so in open games !...
It is a GREAT thing to play the scenarii as it is an opportunity for discovering civilizations, and victory types, we would not try otherwise...
I think I never won a Religious victory, and I had to win one into a scenario. I never played the Doviello, and I am about to start the scenario playing them ...
Actually, it is nice as playing a civ you are not fond of allows you also to know more about your enemy: when you play the civ you like and you encounter one of those civs you had to play before, you are much more aware of what they can do, and how to counter it/them ...
Starting the Return of Winter scenario, I have immediately 2 thoughts about Lucian:
1- Lucian is classified as a heroe. I do not see why. It is nothing more than a warrior+1. Nothing more. really. He is a big question mark to me, and for the 1st time, I have a feeling of something "unachieved" somehow. Why not classifying him as a National Unit (with 1 authorized). It would reduce the misunderstanding and lower the expectations a role-playing gamer has on "heroes"...
2- I understand now why, in ALL my games (emperor, mostly >=18 civs, large & huge) for a few months now, I ALWAYS see after a few turns the yellow line on top of my screen saying "Lucian has been killed". I always thought " I would not like to be this civ with such a weak/pointless/suicidal heroe..." ... and now I am in his shoes ... ooops...
Lucian as a hero has no flavour to me. Nothing special. Not even a spell that would make a Loki so special... By instance, if he has to die, then it can be converted randomly in any other normal unique unit, from any other civilization! Ending up with a vampire or morbius of gregori medic would be fun...
At least, in all other scenarii, we were offered something at start. A Decius, a Treepwood, a unit with some flesh and flavour or an exotic location... but a Lucian ... it is like travelling to France or Italia, and finding yourself pushing the door of a Mac Donald when getting hungry ...
**********
Ok. I have edited my post as I have now finished this mission (1h12mn).
An easy mission, style "Search and Destroy".
Up till now (I play all scenarion in the descending order - top to bottom), it is the scenario I like the less.
Good:
- short, simple to understand
- I had to use a Civ I do not know: discoveries are always nice.
Not so good:
- perhaps too simple. If we follow the scenarii from top to bottom, I think there are no more need for simple, introductory scenario duplicating the simplicity of Grand Menagerie.
- A bit too simple for getting the winning path. Use Lucian, have Lucian quickly rushing on the cities and whatever move for getting points, no need to think too much
- No time to develop. Actually, I think it is even possible to win after creating only 1 city, and scouting where the others are.
- Settings says : "No Barbarians". It is not true. Powerfull barabarian units roam the map. A wraith 6+3 attacked my capital after 20 turns...
- not a single time in my game (Monarch, standard speed) the Illians were attacked! There is no pressure on the player.
What I would have liked:
- more pressure!! With the Illians depending more on me. I should be obliged to divert resources and troops fro protecting the Illians.
- 1 settler for starting, not 2.
- no team with the Illians: the discovery rate gives us a too big advantage
- No goodies, bo dungeon, no lair. The settings says "no religion". But I got in a dungeon a priest of Kilmorph, then had a Great priest. I founded the religion and the Great priest made the Religion Wonder. It gives another big advantage...
- at the opposite: ragging barbarians, with a Clan of Ember close to the Illians for keeping the pressure on...
- (perhaps done in a scenario I have not played yet): as we are supposed to protect the Illians, it can be nice to be forced to switch civilizations every, say, 50 turns (but no more)! We start as Doviello, then at turn 51 we are in charge of the Illians, then we go back to Doviello (if they still exist...) at 101, etc... back and forth ...
- the switch Illian/Doviello every X turns can be beefed up by having a horseman with a special name, acting as messenger. When we start the game, this messenger must go the the Illians' capital. It triggers 1 free discovery among the one already discovered by the Illians. The crossing MUST be done before the end of teh countdown otherwise the messenger is lost, and penalties should be applied (ex.: all populations /2 simulating an exode due to lower confidence in teh leaders). When reaching the other capital, this messenger is integrated into the Illians capital as Illian and is held. At civ switch, this messenger is reactivated, and it must reach the Doviello capital (as if it was bearing important messages) for getting a free bonus (to be defined) from the Doviello, before the next switch, etc... If the messenger dies, we are stuck into 1 civilization and get a penalty of, by instance, 25 turns without production and research...
It is a GREAT thing to play the scenarii as it is an opportunity for discovering civilizations, and victory types, we would not try otherwise...
I think I never won a Religious victory, and I had to win one into a scenario. I never played the Doviello, and I am about to start the scenario playing them ...
Actually, it is nice as playing a civ you are not fond of allows you also to know more about your enemy: when you play the civ you like and you encounter one of those civs you had to play before, you are much more aware of what they can do, and how to counter it/them ...
Starting the Return of Winter scenario, I have immediately 2 thoughts about Lucian:
1- Lucian is classified as a heroe. I do not see why. It is nothing more than a warrior+1. Nothing more. really. He is a big question mark to me, and for the 1st time, I have a feeling of something "unachieved" somehow. Why not classifying him as a National Unit (with 1 authorized). It would reduce the misunderstanding and lower the expectations a role-playing gamer has on "heroes"...
2- I understand now why, in ALL my games (emperor, mostly >=18 civs, large & huge) for a few months now, I ALWAYS see after a few turns the yellow line on top of my screen saying "Lucian has been killed". I always thought " I would not like to be this civ with such a weak/pointless/suicidal heroe..." ... and now I am in his shoes ... ooops...
Lucian as a hero has no flavour to me. Nothing special. Not even a spell that would make a Loki so special... By instance, if he has to die, then it can be converted randomly in any other normal unique unit, from any other civilization! Ending up with a vampire or morbius of gregori medic would be fun...
At least, in all other scenarii, we were offered something at start. A Decius, a Treepwood, a unit with some flesh and flavour or an exotic location... but a Lucian ... it is like travelling to France or Italia, and finding yourself pushing the door of a Mac Donald when getting hungry ...
**********
Ok. I have edited my post as I have now finished this mission (1h12mn).
An easy mission, style "Search and Destroy".
Up till now (I play all scenarion in the descending order - top to bottom), it is the scenario I like the less.
Good:
- short, simple to understand
- I had to use a Civ I do not know: discoveries are always nice.
Not so good:
- perhaps too simple. If we follow the scenarii from top to bottom, I think there are no more need for simple, introductory scenario duplicating the simplicity of Grand Menagerie.
- A bit too simple for getting the winning path. Use Lucian, have Lucian quickly rushing on the cities and whatever move for getting points, no need to think too much
- No time to develop. Actually, I think it is even possible to win after creating only 1 city, and scouting where the others are.
- Settings says : "No Barbarians". It is not true. Powerfull barabarian units roam the map. A wraith 6+3 attacked my capital after 20 turns...
- not a single time in my game (Monarch, standard speed) the Illians were attacked! There is no pressure on the player.
What I would have liked:
- more pressure!! With the Illians depending more on me. I should be obliged to divert resources and troops fro protecting the Illians.
- 1 settler for starting, not 2.
- no team with the Illians: the discovery rate gives us a too big advantage
- No goodies, bo dungeon, no lair. The settings says "no religion". But I got in a dungeon a priest of Kilmorph, then had a Great priest. I founded the religion and the Great priest made the Religion Wonder. It gives another big advantage...
- at the opposite: ragging barbarians, with a Clan of Ember close to the Illians for keeping the pressure on...
- (perhaps done in a scenario I have not played yet): as we are supposed to protect the Illians, it can be nice to be forced to switch civilizations every, say, 50 turns (but no more)! We start as Doviello, then at turn 51 we are in charge of the Illians, then we go back to Doviello (if they still exist...) at 101, etc... back and forth ...
- the switch Illian/Doviello every X turns can be beefed up by having a horseman with a special name, acting as messenger. When we start the game, this messenger must go the the Illians' capital. It triggers 1 free discovery among the one already discovered by the Illians. The crossing MUST be done before the end of teh countdown otherwise the messenger is lost, and penalties should be applied (ex.: all populations /2 simulating an exode due to lower confidence in teh leaders). When reaching the other capital, this messenger is integrated into the Illians capital as Illian and is held. At civ switch, this messenger is reactivated, and it must reach the Doviello capital (as if it was bearing important messages) for getting a free bonus (to be defined) from the Doviello, before the next switch, etc... If the messenger dies, we are stuck into 1 civilization and get a penalty of, by instance, 25 turns without production and research...
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2004
- Messages
- 13,725
I succeeded just by entrenching and careful space-filling of 6 cities in the nice starting area. I literally had a wall a forts covering all the mountain passes, but far enough away that they didn't block any of my cities areas. Actually I had to since the Kurioates were walling me in with settlements.
Mostly won with horseman rushes with careful hit and run tactics to get XP up (using javelinmen in hills, or the Pact Ogres, as safe havens), had a cadre of 30ish XP to upgrade with Stirrups. By then it was pretty much over, especially when I got my Heroic epic up. Never needed a catapult thanks to huge stacks. Nilhim ogres helped take some early cities, but horses FTW!
Add tactical carrot and stick miniquests. Like---our scouts see iron ore over yonder (catch is a long logistical chain). Or, maybe have the AI shuttle supply carts around the map, poorly guarded, and with vicinity quest clues of their whereabouts. Possibly give more bonuses in the starting area, but make it even more porous and hard to wall. Maybe script some actual attacks against the Illians, because they were largely ignored except for minor city swapping; Something that forces sending a large army away from your base. Then maybe script a surprise attack against the player's start with the army in transit. Also,maybe a sub-quest where some frostling tribe can be allied with for reconnaissance/ambushes when you approach and enemy base.
AI-wise, the east most tribe is really stupid. They were land locked, yet on the coast, and probably had the worst cities. Tweaking them might help a little. The central civ played a good game with its axes. Took me lots of careful horse maneuvers to pillage everything and whittle them away. The kurioates were pretty easy to ignore though their encroachment was a reasonably good challenge in itself; I think they could use some cordination in getting large stacks to form from all the settlements though. Get the AI to use some napoleonic columns (stacks supporting each other)?
Mostly won with horseman rushes with careful hit and run tactics to get XP up (using javelinmen in hills, or the Pact Ogres, as safe havens), had a cadre of 30ish XP to upgrade with Stirrups. By then it was pretty much over, especially when I got my Heroic epic up. Never needed a catapult thanks to huge stacks. Nilhim ogres helped take some early cities, but horses FTW!
Add tactical carrot and stick miniquests. Like---our scouts see iron ore over yonder (catch is a long logistical chain). Or, maybe have the AI shuttle supply carts around the map, poorly guarded, and with vicinity quest clues of their whereabouts. Possibly give more bonuses in the starting area, but make it even more porous and hard to wall. Maybe script some actual attacks against the Illians, because they were largely ignored except for minor city swapping; Something that forces sending a large army away from your base. Then maybe script a surprise attack against the player's start with the army in transit. Also,maybe a sub-quest where some frostling tribe can be allied with for reconnaissance/ambushes when you approach and enemy base.
AI-wise, the east most tribe is really stupid. They were land locked, yet on the coast, and probably had the worst cities. Tweaking them might help a little. The central civ played a good game with its axes. Took me lots of careful horse maneuvers to pillage everything and whittle them away. The kurioates were pretty easy to ignore though their encroachment was a reasonably good challenge in itself; I think they could use some cordination in getting large stacks to form from all the settlements though. Get the AI to use some napoleonic columns (stacks supporting each other)?
NeoBasilisk
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 20
I really liked that this map is very similar to the one in Age of Ice. It was a really cool moment when I suddenly realized what was going on. 
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
I found the scenario kinda hinged on rush tactics and getting Copper before the Bannor. What follows isn't criticism (except of my sub-optimal playstyle), just feedback.
My first game (which I abandoned) I found myself up out-produced by the Bannor and was struggling to take their cities. I'd snagged a Kurio city with Lucian and another random unit or two and my economy was taking a distance hit as a result. Logically it would have made sense to have gifted this city to the Illians as it was far closer to their land than my own, but this option didn't appear to be available in the diplomatic screen. Consequently I had to pay for an army in the North to hold a fairly useless city and never got the funds/units to deal with the Bannor, who were far closer to home. I suspect had I continued I would have eventually overwhelmed the Bannor, but it was going to be a slog.
I also developed to the North West, rather than the East, trying to string out my civ to be close enough to help out the Illians. I needn't have bothered, as they're rarely saw any action, but a (partial) road running from myself to the Illians might have allayed my fears of abandoning my ally and encouraged me to develop in more fertile lands to begin with.
My first game (which I abandoned) I found myself up out-produced by the Bannor and was struggling to take their cities. I'd snagged a Kurio city with Lucian and another random unit or two and my economy was taking a distance hit as a result. Logically it would have made sense to have gifted this city to the Illians as it was far closer to their land than my own, but this option didn't appear to be available in the diplomatic screen. Consequently I had to pay for an army in the North to hold a fairly useless city and never got the funds/units to deal with the Bannor, who were far closer to home. I suspect had I continued I would have eventually overwhelmed the Bannor, but it was going to be a slog.
I also developed to the North West, rather than the East, trying to string out my civ to be close enough to help out the Illians. I needn't have bothered, as they're rarely saw any action, but a (partial) road running from myself to the Illians might have allayed my fears of abandoning my ally and encouraged me to develop in more fertile lands to begin with.
cabbagemeister
Please wait...
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2008
- Messages
- 517
This looked like a really well set-up scenario. Unfortunately a spectre popped from a lair and wiped out the Grigori on turn 20. Getting two free priests at that point was a game-breaker; with summoned tigers to weaken strong defending units, I was able to get the Priests to Combat V pretty quickly and wipe everyone else out.
I played this scenario at king and found it too easy. I have the feeling, that something with the AI must be wrong, cause they gave me almost no challange (I felt the same at other scenarios, where the AI settled only sparse and had no remarkable military forces).
I was visited only once by a stack of ~7 warriors, not a problem with the same number of sons waiting for them. The illians didn't need anything of my protection. When I turned on Kuon (around turn 150), he has almost nothing to defend himself (2 warriors in his capital). Tethira was the opposite. She had aroung 25 warriors - but all stacked in her capital and quite useless.
The victory counter of Cardith is 404, Thessa only 256 at turn 280 - and I did not waged the war against them so far.
This scenario could use more pressure, imho (at least at higher difficulties). The good civs should be stronger, more pressing on the illians. Additionally, there shold be a possibility to bring your troops to defend the illians, beside the long way by feet. Maybe a gate, which can transport one unit per turn to the illians or something like that.
Then it would feel more the way, that I barely safed them from destruction.
I was visited only once by a stack of ~7 warriors, not a problem with the same number of sons waiting for them. The illians didn't need anything of my protection. When I turned on Kuon (around turn 150), he has almost nothing to defend himself (2 warriors in his capital). Tethira was the opposite. She had aroung 25 warriors - but all stacked in her capital and quite useless.
The victory counter of Cardith is 404, Thessa only 256 at turn 280 - and I did not waged the war against them so far.
This scenario could use more pressure, imho (at least at higher difficulties). The good civs should be stronger, more pressing on the illians. Additionally, there shold be a possibility to bring your troops to defend the illians, beside the long way by feet. Maybe a gate, which can transport one unit per turn to the illians or something like that.
Then it would feel more the way, that I barely safed them from destruction.
Elder Methyl
Warlord
- Joined
- May 15, 2010
- Messages
- 260
I haven't won this scenario fairly yet, but I discovered a new trick: The Doviellio can upgrade Slaves to Beastmen, and from there to Sons of Asena and Battlemasters. Due to the fact that the money gained from raiding improvements is huge and upgrade costs are halved because of Mahala's trait, it has allowed me to mantain a constant supply of melee troops on campaign.
Edit: That trick wasn't as useful as I thought, although I did use it when one of my Battlemasters died (and even then, I also used my Priests of Leaves to Capture enemy Swordsmen and take their Bronze Weapons). Finally won this with only a few reloads when some of my troops died in odds that they should have suceeded in.
Edit: That trick wasn't as useful as I thought, although I did use it when one of my Battlemasters died (and even then, I also used my Priests of Leaves to Capture enemy Swordsmen and take their Bronze Weapons). Finally won this with only a few reloads when some of my troops died in odds that they should have suceeded in.
The thing I love about scenarios is that they make you try new things. I'd never played Doviello or attempted a rush, yet here I built hordes of warriors, who hindered enemies' expansion (also razed early Bannor and Kuroates second city) and then overwhelmed them when they got the numbers...
