reverend mother mechanics

[Slvynn]

Prana-bindu seems to me like action, not as promotion. Consider it as spell.

Use it, meditate, lose movement points.
Thats a how it in books.
MAy be not healing , but something other as action
Some beneficial "spell" like abilitiy - that wears after 1-few turns? Like blades/courage combined in FFH?

perhaps mother only.... or may be not.... Paul and Leto were semi-KH, so may be all KH line should have such action, but if assume mother as spy unit - then it makes no sence...
so still, its good thing for some melee units.

 

[Ahriman]

I don't really like the idea of a prana-bindu promotion.

Well, we could call it Muscle Control or Improved Reflexes or Weirding Way or something instead. I just think that we could probably have somethnig more flavorful than having Bene Gesserits teching units Drill.

but the entire Bene Gesserit training (including Prana-Bindu) is only given to a few aristocratic individuals outside the Sisterhood such as Paul and Farad'n.

Agreed.

When I think of pranu-bindu I think of the scenes in the book where Paul or others were meditating, trying to move just one muscle

That isn't what I get, particularly from the post 95 quote. Prana-bindu is a physical technique used to improve reflexes and control of the body. It is not meditation. The mental part of Prana-bindu is called Prana-nervature, and that is about improved self-control.

Improved medicine/healing seems like something that should come from the Suk school, not from Bene Gesserit.

Use it, meditate, lose movement points.
Thats a how it in books.

I don't recall anything in the books where armies stopped moving for days or months in order to meditate.

We could have a meditation/healing ability on the various Kwizatz-Haderach units if you liked, I'd have no objection to that. But rather than trying to make a spell that removed movement points, why not use the existing mechanic and have a promotion on them that gives +100% healing rate, so that the unit can heal in a single turn, but like normal units it can't heal while moving?

 

[idahopotato]

Wait, what? Kwisatz Haderach unit(S), as in plural? Isn't there really only one KH?

 

[Ahriman]

Please read the rest of this thread. There is one Kwizatz Haderach, but there are several attempts, such as Count Fenring. We're planning a sequential set of units leading to the KH.

 

[idahopotato]

Gotcha. I do remember reading that somewhere. It was probably here, but I most likely forgot. It has been a long week.

 

[davidlallen]

OK, I have completed the sdk change to add a civilization prerequisite and a free unit to projects. Since you can only complete a project once, this means the unit will be irreplaceable. I propose the following projects, limited to the Bene Gesserit player:

Breeding Program I, requires Social Mobility tech, costs 125, creates one free Kwisatz Precursor (+25% to all units in stack, +1 plot visibility range)

Breeding Program II, requires Benevolence tech and Breeding Program I, costs 250, creates one free Kwisatz Aspirant (+25% to all units in stack, +1 first strike, +2 plot visibility range)

Breeding Program III, requires Mind Training tech and Breeding Program II, costs 500, creates one free Kwisatz Candidate (+25% to all units in stack, +1 first strike, +4 plot visibility range, immune to first strikes)

Breeding Program IV, requires Water of Life tech and Breeding Program III, costs 1000, creates one free Kwisatz Haderach (+50% to all units in stack, +2 first strikes, +4 plot visibility range, immune to first strikes)

What do you think?

 

[Slvynn]

I think that techs you assigned is very early ones. I think last unit should come at last technology in tech tree.
Paul was not full KH - and Water Of Life was "known", Water of Life is not enough to complete project. I'd place lvl 3 or lvl 2 to Water of Life. Lvl 1 should go somewhere in Benevolence.

 

[Slvynn]

As for Prana-Bindu

I browsed through books, and i found several cases where it's called "forced relaxation"

i though about it and i think best way to fit it is promotion - "Training of Prana-bindu"
Like skill.
Action is not good.
Anyways its very dominant thing in the books for BG and we must to implement it somehow.


As for Amtal rule - calling and doing is different things. Amtal rule means not pre-denying - but testing, accepting things to hard tests. Pre-denying is something really different with Amtal. I like idea Amtal rule myself, but 1st, you need to adopt tested for testing, and start your testing.

On personal note, pre-denying of numerous things bring men to tired state, its hard to create things when your mind encounter wall. Battling and arguing makes mind tired. And this exhaustion makes us losing fun of creation. Thats why koma left ,i have no doubt. One cant say his way completely right, we are not gods, we still live in real world . Please think about it Ahriman, as i will think about my amplified reactions and will try to move towards you. This is team work, killed fun and tiresome battling for ideas are very bad for our work, when unrestrained and abundant. I am not that uncoherent, and at least, there are things which invisible for you but i can see them, and opposite, things which i blind to them, and you know them very well. Pre-Denying is not testing to death, and i have no problems with latter.

(I love philosophy and psychology and this is quite interesting talk for me, some people dont like this attitude, but when understood, its appreciated, in long term. Is only friendly attempt to make our teamwork stable, balanced and more effecient, and main - more fun)
cheers and i also appreciate your immence job, which is great and it's results are great. Its not about rightness. Its about providing fun of co-work for other teammates. If there different oppinions and you win to often - you get your fun, but others lose it, and somehow it may be good to compensate it abit with just more polite and diplomatic denying.
And nommater if this thing changes or not - i've said my part here and stop. There is no need of saying good things over and over.
And i'll be and put my job to art, at least, to this mod, because i love Dune, mod, and job you done for it.

 

[Deliverator]

i though about it and i think best way to fit it is promotion - "Training of Prana-bindu"
Anyways its very dominant thing in the books for BG and we must to implement it somehow.

I think very dominant is over-stating it a bit, but it is an important part of the Bene Gesserit training.

I just think that we could probably have somethnig more flavorful than having Bene Gesserits teching units Drill.

As I said, I think a promotion for non-BG units that are trained by them should be called Weirding Way. The Weirding Way incorporates some of the physical muscle training aspects of prana-bindu. If we do have a prana-bindu promotion I think it should only be available to the BG UUs, Sayyadina, Reverend Mother, etc.

Another alternative would be to have a Prana-Bindu Training Centre unique building for the Bene Gesserit. Basically, I still can't get excited about something akin to Yoga being a combat promotion.

If we were to do as david suggests and start a 'What significant items from the books are not yet represented in the mod?' thread, there'd be things other than prana-bindu I'd be more excited about.

But that's only my opinion...

Thats why koma left ,i have no doubt.

The bottom line was that Koma had a very different Dune mod in mind. He wants to make a Dune mod for Colonization.

The debate is pretty fierce at times, and I'm sure some lurkers are put off posting by that ferocity sometimes. But I do believe that good ideas stand up to scrutiny, and the mod has been improved by debating new ideas rather than just indiscriminately adding them.

 

[Slvynn]

The debate is pretty fierce at times, and I'm sure some lurkers are put off posting by that ferocity sometimes. But I do believe that good ideas stand up to scrutiny, and the mod has been improved by debating new ideas rather than just indiscriminately adding them.

I agree with this. But i think we'll halt discussion about this matter, and origins of ferocity, which are several. There are factor of form, politency, but for me all is sweet those just lessons of life, even of forum. One should halt talking if not being understood (about something which isn't game related, but more personality oriented) for long time, better i will just do things where i am proficient, and avoid situations and replies, which form offends me, it do, and i know, its my problem, as well.
This is really not a place to discuss it - so lets end it here. I can talk in Pm, but i think noone needs and wants it, but if you do - you are wellcome. All is cool, i enjoy results of your (and my small) work, thats great, lets go on.

As for Prana-Bindu -
Check Children of Dune for example - how much times it being remebered. Almost every second chapter have prana-bindu phrase.
Really, i dont care how it may be implemented, but i think thats a very important part of BG "culture"

 

[Ahriman]

Breeding Program I, requires Social Mobility tech, costs 125, creates one free Kwisatz Precursor (+25% to all units in stack, +1 plot visibility range)

Breeding Program II, requires Benevolence tech and Breeding Program I, costs 250, creates one free Kwisatz Aspirant (+25% to all units in stack, +1 first strike, +2 plot visibility range)

Breeding Program III, requires Mind Training tech and Breeding Program II, costs 500, creates one free Kwisatz Candidate (+25% to all units in stack, +1 first strike, +4 plot visibility range, immune to first strikes)

Breeding Program IV, requires Water of Life tech and Breeding Program III, costs 1000, creates one free Kwisatz Haderach (+50% to all units in stack, +2 first strikes, +4 plot visibility range, immune to first strikes)

Are the first strikes for the unit, or the stack? What strength do you imagine the units having?
I guess there is a challenge here in that we want them to be tough, but we don't want them to be the toughest unit and so be the stack defender. Is there some way we could use something like part of the Hero or Channeling promotions from FFH, which makes the unit less likely to be selected as the stack defender?
I don't like having Social Mobility and Benevolence for the first two. Partly, they don't make logical sense to me, and partly they're directly adjacent to each other.
How about <renamed> Theocracy, Mind training, Water of Life, and then a final Kwizatz Haderach tech? Water of life is too early for a +50% stack bonus.

50% strength on the final one for all units in the stack might be a little large even late-game, that could make an unkillable uberstack. Maybe drop it to 35-40% and then playtest?

Anyway, generally seems good.

On personal note, pre-denying of numerous things bring men to tired state, its hard to create things when your mind encounter wall.

I'm sorry Slvynn, but I'm not going to agree with every idea you have just to make you feel better. You have a lot of interesting ideas, and some great art design, but not every concept you come up with (or anyone else comes up with, including me) will improve the mod, either in a gameplay sense or by improving Dune flavor. I don't think it is inherently impolite to disagree with other people's design ideas; I will try to make sure that my comments are polite and respectful, but I'd appreciate if you reciprocated by not throwing around wild accusations.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pre-denying". Do you really think that every idea anyone comes up with should be put into the mod, and then only removed afterwards? That would place a very high burden on coders and modders. It is much more efficient to be highly selective in what features get added, and to do as much of the critical analysis in the design phase, so to avoid wasting the valuable time of people who are adding code changes.

I think a promotion for non-BG units that are trained by them should be called Weirding Way.

This sounds good to me.

 

[Ahriman]

I should also clarify one more thing: I don't have anything against the idea of including Prana-bindu techniques in the mod somehow, as Slvynn says it is a concept that comes up a lot.

But I agree with Deliverator that its something that should be reserved for Bene Gesserit and key hero types, rather than ordinary soldiers, and I think it should probably be something relating to muscle control, rather than a healing meditation, and that if it is a healing effect then it is probably easier to implement that just through a higher heal rate than by creating a separate "spell", which is outside the normal AI routines.

 

[Slvynn]

After thinking abit: i thik that UB of Prana-Bindu as Deliverator mentioned is quite good idea. Perhaps it can give to certain elite units "Prana Bindu techniques" (knowledge) promotion whihc have own benefits. ALso we have lack of BG UBs so perhaps that can be good solution.

Also i had my hand being hurt very bad in some accident 2 days ago, mey be i am over-perceptive those days.. :-} I agre, and was agree with way where most of things rejected, i think its because we need to try to be polite sometimes more than we are, me as well, watching sequence and form, thats it.

 

[davidlallen]

Are the first strikes for the unit, or the stack? What strength do you imagine the units having?

The combat strength bonus, first strikes, and first strike immunity apply to all units in the stack. The KH unit itself has strength 2 and the improved visibility. I did not list it, but the KH would also have first strike immunity and collateral damage immunity. These last would hardly get used since it won't be getting attacked much, but these reinforce the concept of "knowing where the enemy is, and being somewhere else".

I don't like having Social Mobility and Benevolence for the first two. Partly, they don't make logical sense to me, and partly they're directly adjacent to each other. How about <renamed> Theocracy, Mind training, Water of Life, and then a final Kwizatz Haderach tech? Water of life is too early for a +50% stack bonus.

I wanted to find techs which are all on a line, so you had to get the first tech anyway before you could get the second. I suppose this doesn't really matter since the N+1 project requires the N project. Divine Mandate (ex-Theocracy) and Mind Training are fine. One problem I had with adding a late game tech is that all of the late game techs are scientific, so nothing seems appropriate as the prerequisite. The mental and biological lines are all done by then. Water of Life leads to Golden Path; I suppose I could add a KH tech off Golden Path but I think that would be bad from the canon standpoint. Where can we put this new tech?

50% strength on the final one for all units in the stack might be a little large even late-game, that could make an unkillable uberstack. Maybe drop it to 35-40% and then playtest?

That is kind of the point. Once the BG get here, they should be unstoppable, or at least that one stack should be unstoppable. I can drop it to 40%.

 

[davidlallen]

After thinking abit: i thik that UB of Prana-Bindu as Deliverator mentioned is quite good idea. Perhaps it can give to certain elite units "Prana Bindu techniques" (knowledge) promotion whihc have own benefits. ALso we have lack of BG UBs so perhaps that can be good solution.

Having a building also is fine. We are stuck on what the promotion should do. I agree that castable spell effects are a problem for the AI. We already have combat and drill promotions, and I don't see too much reason to create a new promotion which does the same thing as an existing one. Apart from a +10% heal everywhere, can anybody suggest an effect?

 

[Deliverator]

One problem I had with adding a late game tech is that all of the late game techs are scientific, so nothing seems appropriate as the prerequisite. The mental and biological lines are all done by then. Water of Life leads to Golden Path; I suppose I could add a KH tech off Golden Path but I think that would be bad from the canon standpoint. Where can we put this new tech?

I think we should be open to changing around the late game techs a bit. I think probably Kwizatz Haderach and Golden Path should probably be on separate branches anyway. It certainly doesn't make sense that Golden Path comes before KH from a canon standpoint.
Creating some more mystical/religious techs for the late game is fine if they're needed. I haven't even played a game to the point of getting to some of those techs yet.

 

[Slvynn]

Can we program some new effect - as like takes 30% damage less from combat? (involving hitpoint system)
If not then just mixture of healing and 1st strike effects

or

as alternative - retreat odds +30% +10% heal rate (melee units have not retreat odds, and that will be very special for melee units)

 

[davidlallen]

I could add a KH tech off Water of Life. But the only effect would be to enable the final breeding project, which is Bene Gesserit only; so there may not be much point. Each of the breeding projects requires the previous one. So I could leave BP IV off the tech tree altogether; once you finish BP III you could immediately start BP IV.

If anybody has concrete suggestions for names and effects of late game mental, biological, religious techs, please let us know.

as alternative - retreat odds +30% +10% heal rate (melee units have not retreat odds, and that will be very special for melee units)

We have discussed two key effects of prana-bindu from the books: high strength and high speed. These seem to correspond to combat bonuses and first strikes. High speed can also correspond to withdraw promotions, "running away" at high speed. I can add the existing withdraw promotions to the list teachable by Sayyadinas.

Perhaps "prana-bindu" needs to go on the list of names we want to use, in ways we haven't thought of yet.

 

[idahopotato]

Perhaps you could add the final KH somewhere after Mentat. Paul was also trained as a Mentat, which may have aided in him becoming the KH a generation earlier than expected.

What about the 100% withdraw rate? I played with an Atreides heir unit and it is surprisingly helpful; more so than I had anticipated.

I also agree that the Golden Path should come later. I figured it would be the very last tech. Perhaps it could be a victory condition or something. I haven't used it much in game yet, but it seems a bit weak. I could be wrong though.

 

[davidlallen]

What about the 100% withdraw rate? I played with an Atreides heir unit and it is surprisingly helpful; more so than I had anticipated.

Let me understand this more. The 100% withdraw rate on the current Atreides Heir enables that unit to start a combat, and never die. It has no effect if that unit is attacked. Did you use this 100% withdraw rate for anything? Attacking some other, really weak unit perhaps?

I also agree that the Golden Path should come later. I figured it would be the very last tech. Perhaps it could be a victory condition or something. I haven't used it much in game yet, but it seems a bit weak. I could be wrong though.

The main goal of the GP tech is to enable the GP building. (We need to rename one of these.) This is the Qizarate temple, and it has a pretty strong effect of +5 happiness, +5 health. It also gives -25% beaker and -50% trade route yield. This is supposed to represent the stifling effect that choosing the golden path would have had on humanity, despite making them feel happy about it.

I agree we don't have much playtest feedback about this yet.