reverend mother mechanics

[Ahriman]

I dislike "finalist". Candidate and precursor are fine. How about Precursor -> Aspirant -> Candidate -> Haderach?

Do we have a consensus on making them world units or projects, integrated into the tech tree?

Can we have an early building that gives Espionage points?

I would argue if you want one of these to be URU, the Sayyadina fits better than the Reverend Mother. Trainers just train people; they can't really control how that training is used, whether it is to benefit the BG or not. RMs will always really be loyal to the Sisterhood (rare exceptions like Jessica excepted). Besides, we could interpret Jessica as a Sayyadina, doing training for the Fremen.
Plus, the various diplomatic machinations should really be a faction-specific ability, not available to their friends. They're a core faction ability, less interesting if others can get them too.
[Along these lines; could we also have some Fremen units or mechanics that are really faction specific, rather than URUs? Things like the vehicle capture mechanic could work here I suppose.]

I don't like the idea of an ally of the BG's having reverend mothers potentially building their own RMs and using them against the BG player.

 

[davidlallen]

I dislike "finalist". Candidate and precursor are fine. How about Precursor -> Aspirant -> Candidate -> Haderach?

I hope to find a set of names so it is clear what order they come in. I think "finalist" is clear. Is it clear whether "candidate > aspirant" or the reverse?

Do we have a consensus on making them world units or projects, integrated into the tech tree?

Rarely. The only xml implementation I can find for a single irreplaceable unit is with custom techs granting a free unit. There are several possible implementations with sdk changes, such as adding a free unit field to projects; I am considering alternatives.

Along these lines; could we also have some Fremen units or mechanics that are really faction specific, rather than URUs? Things like the vehicle capture mechanic could work here I suppose.

This is stalled, because I have not been able to solve the problem of poor expansion for their sandrider settlers. This may be solved in 1.6.4 but it will take confirmation by playtesting. If it is solved, then we can go onto the next phase of reducing their access to vehicles and giving them a capture ability.

I don't like the idea of an ally of the BG's having reverend mothers potentially building their own RMs and using them against the BG player.

That is certainly a good point. In 1.6.4 I am not going to try touching super spies to add missions or restrictions. So temporarily, the RM will not be such a useful unit. Once I have some spy missions with diplomacy effects working, we can revisit this.

 

[Ahriman]

I think "finalist" is clear

Finalist makes it sound like a race, or a competition, which isn't really correct.

I think its more important to have names that don't sound silly. If you're worried about interpretation, then just add a numeral to the end. "Kwizatz Precusor (I)", "Kwizatz Aspirant" (II) etc.

There are several possible implementations with sdk changes, such as adding a free unit field to projects; I am considering alternatives.

Why not just have the unit created by event when the a particular project is completed? That woudl require no sdk, right?

This may be solved in 1.6.4 but it will take confirmation by playtesting

Sounds fine. All I really wanted to do was signal that while we might be done with UUs *for now*, we should be aware that this still probably isn't our final model.

Once I have some spy missions with diplomacy effects working, we can revisit this.

Fair enough. Should they just have regular missions for now, and maybe 2 base movement points?

Where are you putting the Sayyadina unit. Maybe the Theocracy/religious rule tech (did you pick a name?).

 

[Deliverator]

I hope to find a set of names so it is clear what order they come in. I think "finalist" is clear. Is it clear whether "candidate > aspirant" or the reverse?

How about Elect? So Precursor -> Aspirant -> Elect -> Kwizatz Haderach?

I'm not sure using the prefix Kwizatz with these really works though. Kwizatz Haderach means the Shortening of the Way so you are taking half of that phrase and putting it with an English word. Plus I think the phrase Kwizatz Haderach should only be used for the final stage to keep it special. Provided the names of the stages are documented, it should be OK.

If it is solved, then we can go onto the next phase of reducing their access to vehicles and giving them a capture ability.

Sounds good. I wish you luck in cracking the Fremen AI issue - I thought you'd made some progress?

I would argue if you want one of these to be URU, the Sayyadina fits better than the Reverend Mother.

I'd support that.

 

[davidlallen]

Why not just have the unit created by event when the a particular project is completed? That woudl require no sdk, right?

Consider also the documentation. The hover help in the tech chooser says "Free <unitclass> to first player", which is not correct but close. With an event there is no hover help (without sdk).

I'm not sure using the prefix Kwizatz with these really works though. Kwizatz Haderach means the Shortening of the Way so you are taking half of that phrase and putting it with an English word.

I know it is not linguistically correct, but a name like "Kwisatz Candidate" should be easy to remember that it is like a Kwisatz Haderach, only not quite perfect (not as powerful) yet. If you want to suggest three names which the user can tell are (a) related to Kwisatz Haderach and (b) which order they go in, that would be great.

 

[Ahriman]

How about Elect? So Precursor -> Aspirant -> Elect -> Kwizatz Haderach?

Could work. What is the term used in the book, when discussing Fenring?

I'm not sure using the prefix Kwizatz with these really works though. Kwizatz Haderach means the Shortening of the Way so you are taking half of that phrase and putting it with an English word.

This is true, but I can't think of an alternative that would still make it clear that these were part of the Kwizatz Haderach breeding project.
Unless you wanted:
Candidate Generation 1 -> Candidate generation 2 -> Candidate generation 3 -> Kwizatz Haderach.

I don't think that Precursor -> Aspirant -> Elect -> Kwizatz Haderach would make the connection clear enough.
Another thnig though; we have a bit more space in that we can name Projects, if these are being created by projects.
Or maybe these should be "Breeding Project I", "Breeding Project II" etc.?

 

[Ahriman]

Consider also the documentation. The hover help in the tech chooser says "Free <unitclass> to first player", which is not correct but close. With an event there is no hover help (without sdk).

I don't think this is a sufficient reason to use techs rather than Projects. Here's my issue: using projects shuts down one city for a while. Using techs shuts down your entire research agenda.

You can imply some information in the name of the Project, and then in the pedia text for the project.

 

[Hived]

As german reader, I can "guess" the meaning of precursor. I think it's "Vorauswahl"... already the silble "pre" makes clear, that it is an early trial

I'd like to have the word "born" in one or two of the KHs. Someone posted earlier, that Leto II also was "only" a "pre-born"-version. So "pre-born" could be one name...

Candidate and Aspirant sound a bit "marketing-like" (to me)...
...I think, they are "genetic-breed", so the words should fit better in the family of the words "genetical" or "breed"... but being no native speaker, I got no idea, which words could be used
...because of this, also my "feelings" towards different words should not be trusted that much, if not confirmed by someone else

Greetz, Hived.

P.S.: I'd let them build a "regular" building (UB of course), to have access to their "specialists", so they have to do something to get them. I agree to the fact, that advancing their techtree logically leaves them behind in regular techs.

 

[Deliverator]

What is the term used in the book, when discussing Fenring?

"Fenring was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern &#8212; a eunuch, his talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion."

"Almost" doesn't quite have the right ring to it.

Calling the projects Breeding Program I, Breeding Program II, etc as Ahriman suggests sounds good.

If you want to suggest three names which the user can tell are (a) related to Kwisatz Haderach and (b) which order they go in, that would be great

That sounds like an impossible mission so let's go for the "Kwisatz Candidate" fudge.

 

[davidlallen]

Could work. What is the term used in the book, when discussing Fenring?

"Failed", actually. I looked through the appendices and the dune encyclopedia pdf but did not find any canon term for the almost-made-its.

Here's my issue: using projects shuts down one city for a while. Using techs shuts down your entire research agenda.

Well, they're supposed to cost a lot of *something*. What do you suggest?

 

[Ahriman]

"Fenring was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern &#8212; a eunuch, his talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion."

"Failed", actually.

Hmm. These don't help us much.

Well, they're supposed to cost a lot of *something*. What do you suggest?

To clarify: I have no problem with the project implementation (shutting down one city for a while is fine).

.S.: I'd let them build a "regular" building (UB of course), to have access to their "specialists", so they have to do something to get them.

The URU can't require a UB, or it won't be buildable by others.
How about my earlier idea:
Missionaria Protectiva building, gives +5 espionage points per turn. Requires Faith tech.
Required in order to build Reverend Mother unit.

 

[davidlallen]

Even if we name the projects "Breeding Program I,II,III,IV" we still have to name the units. It is likely that the first level unit will still be around when the second level unit comes on line. I think this is a great bit of roleplaying, where the first level guy knows the second level, "new improved" model is around, and he is just waiting to be suicided against some city he is not quite strong enough to take.

I have not make much progress on actually implementing this today (but there were 200+ new posts on the forum!). For 1.6.4, I am hoping Slvynn will send the building art pretty soon (but there were 200+ new posts on the forum!). I will try something small for 1.6.4; I think I will just put the first level unit only, into the main tech tree. All I need to do is find a good way to make the unit irreplaceable.

We can work out the exact names and other mechanics for 1.6.5, so let's continue the discussion.

 

[Deliverator]

I'd like to have the word "born" in one or two of the KHs. Someone posted earlier, that Leto II also was "only" a "pre-born"-version. So "pre-born" could be one name...

Pre-born means something different, unrelated to the Kwizatz Haderach. It means you carry the lives, experiences and memories of all your ancestors within you.

Alia, Leto II and Ghanima are pre-born in the books , but Paul isn't.

 

[Deliverator]

I have not make much progress on actually implementing this today (but there were 200+ new posts on the forum!).

I've realised that sitting on this forum is a bad idea if you want to get any modding done. I've started closing down the browser when I have some modding tasks to do.

 

[Ahriman]

we still have to name the units

I think the strongest suggestion is probably:
Kwizatz Precursor (I) -> Kwizatz Aspirant (II) -> Kwizatz Candidate (III) or Kwizatz Elect (III) -> Kwizatz Haderach

Pre-born means something different, unrelated to the Kwizatz Haderach.

This is true, but there *is* the interesting question of whether Paul was really the Kwizatz Haderach, or whether Leto II really was.

 

[davidlallen]

I've realised that sitting on this forum is a bad idea if you want to get any modding done. I've started closing down the browser when I have some modding tasks to do.

Great, now you made everybody close their browsers and work on modding.

 

[God-Emperor]

It might be possible to have a BG resources related URU that gives the owner some benefit, like the automatic training, and also gives the BG one (or more) espionage point per turn (per unit) towards that civ to represent the unit passing information back to the BG. A tradeoff, but better than having your units suddenly change sides.

 

[Ahriman]

Interesting idea, but probably hard to code and not very transparent to the player. How would you see that some of your espionage income was coming from units built and controlled by other factions?
I think its probably too complex for too low a payoff.
It seems simpler to just let the trainer be a URU unit.

 

[idahopotato]

Pre-born means something different, unrelated to the Kwizatz Haderach. It means you carry the lives, experiences and memories of all your ancestors within you.

Alia, Leto II and Ghanima are pre-born in the books , but Paul isn't.

Pre-born actually means the person awakened to consciousness in the womb, or before birth. The danger of this is that the person hasn't developed their own identity and thus are easily possessed by one of their ancestors. All reverend mothers have all of the memories, experiences, personalities, etc from the female line of all their ancestors as well as any memories passed on to them from another reverend mother. Reverend mothers are conditioned and trained to accept this and are able to fight possession, whereas the preborn are not. Hence the term abomination!

 

[Ahriman]

No, no, abominations are when a Circle Mage is possessed by a demon and -er... maybe I need to stop playing Dragon Age.

Awesome game, btw.