RFC:Antiquity

[JediClemente]

Completely disagree.

If AI Rome will be no threat to anyone, it's best not to include it and put an earlier finish date for the game.

I'm not saying the AI should conquer the Mediterranean, but it should certainly try. And most other civs should have to reach their last UHV condition before 50 BC. It's very late game anyway. Think we'll probably begin at 3000 BC.

No etrurians please. 120-180 turns is almost half the game. We're talking no more than 300 years there, from a 3200-3400 total. They didn't even conquer half of Italy.

 

[Wessel V1]

I think the game shouldn't be longer than 500 turns, because the early game would be really boring. Perhaps 1 turn should be 8 or even 10 years, since there probably isn't any real action in that period. And I think that the AI should be able to conquer the Mediterranean, but CIV has already proved many times that the AI isn't capable to do such a thing. Mongolia is programmed to destroy China, and it does sometimes, but certainly not all the time. In RFCA the Mediterranean can probably hold more than 20 or 30 cities, which would be hard to do for the human player, and impossible for the AI. Of course we can compensate this a little by UP but it won't solve the problem. I think that it's best to first determine exactly what we want to achieve and then focus on how we are going to do that. We can fill up Gallia and Iberia with some weak Native cities / celts, for example. If that's what you want, fine. If you want something else, fine too. But first we have to know what's our aim since there are many projects with great plans that stopped because the producers didn't realize what they wanted.

 

[The Capo]

The Capo, those are great leaderheads that could fit in this mod quite well. Do you have any links to thread you got them from?

I didn't "find" them, I made them. Check my signature.

 

[JediClemente]

I think Civ4 was originally supposed to allow less cities than previous versions. In RFC that isn't possible for the constraints of the map (i.e.: Europe is too small and has to be crowded)

If we go for my last, smaller 90x33 map, some areas like Iberia, Gallia and Africa should hold far less cities than others.

The first question is how complex we want the mod to be. If you want to have something as vanilla as RFC with just ancient civs, that's very different from starting to add things to make it more "ancient-age" wise.

For example, I'd allow 1 tile gap between cities in Greece and the Levant, 3 in the zones mentioned before, 2 in the rest. This is doable I suppose but concepts like that require work, that's to say, time.

 

[Wessel V1]

If that could be coded it is certainly a very nice idea. Perhaps it could even be implemented in RFC itself.

 

[ZachScape]

Wow Capo! I can't believe I let that get by me. My excuse is that it was too early in the mourning.

 

[kravixon]

Etruscans depends on the size of Italy on the map. Regardless, I think that they should be a minor civ, at least to start with.

Nice leaderheads, Capo. I don't think Mark Anthony would be used as his name-sake, as he never had control, and Augustus would fit better for that time anyway. Perhaps he could be used as some sort of earlier consul, like Scipio or Marius. Yours are very nice,and I think that even Mindaugas could be used as David or a similar ruler if you're okay with that.

 

[ZachScape]

I absolutely agree that they should be indy when we first start testing. It would be the best compromise. So if there seems like a civ could fit there, we could put Etruria.
I'm researching them a lot for 3 reasons:
-Originally for this mod.
-I could co develop an Etruscan Civilization mod if all else fails.
-They are starting to interest me.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Completely disagree.

If AI Rome will be no threat to anyone, it's best not to include it and put an earlier finish date for the game.

I still lean towards this. The Romans are too specific, likely too difficult to get right (think Mongols in RFC), and if the game doesn't include them, then the map can be trimmed of most of central and western Europe.

Focusing on an Antiquity which would "end" with Alexander's conquest and focus on the Middle East makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[ZachScape]

You're right about ending before fall of Rome.
Arkaeyn, do you mind doing a brief time scale of the mod?
Like "3000-2500: 20 Years a turn" (completely random)
Don't research for it, should take 2 mins. I think I'm calling it a night.

Also, no one is a bigger advocate for Etruria than me. But for the interest of the community, we should start testing without them first. If it feels like we a missing something, you and I will know what.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Well, there's various gameplay decisions that would need to be made first. Where to start, where to end, how many turns, and what eras to focus on (fewer years per turns for that era)

For a smaller scenario, I'd recommend something like 400 turns. Earliest cities were around 5500 BCE, but more interesting ones show up at 4000 BCE, so let's start there. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_continuously_inhabited_cities)

There are a few different possible end-dates. My Alexander end-date would be about 300 BCE. A Roman conquest end-date would be around 50 BCE, or 1 CE for symmetry's sake. A Roman imperial end could be 200 CE for the split of the empire, or 500 CE for the total western collapse, and to line up with RFCE. Finally, an early end could be the Achaemenid conquests, around 500 BCE, thus lining up a Classical scenario from 500 BCE to 500 CE.

At any rate....

4000-2000, 25 years per turn - 80 turns

This is pretty much just Egypt and Sumer, Akkad showing up in the middle and Babylon and towards the end, and Minoa if they're added.

2000-1000, 10 years per turn - 100 turns

Assyria, Hittites, and Phoenicia all show up here. A Mycenaean civ could pop up here.

1000-500 - Olympic style, 4 years per turn, 125 turns

Here's where the bulk of the civs show up, like the medieval burst in RFC. Athens, Sparta, Medes, Lydia, Achaemenid Persia, Macedon. If you're including Rome and Carthage, they'd show up towards the end, as might Parthia or Bactria.

500-300 2 years per turn, 100 turns

The grand finale? This is at 405 turns, which is a nice number.

300-50 2 years per turn, 125 turns

This ends up with 530 turns, slightly less than RFC, and encompasses the majority of Roman conquests.


I'm also less sure about Indian civs, but the Vedas came around in 1200 BCE, and Civ4's Asoka is in the 3rd century BCE.

 

[ZachScape]

Thanks Arkaeyn! That table looks great! I feel like making a pun, but I have nothing.
When you lay it out like that, it seems ridiculous that we ever wanted it to go to 476 AD. 50 is a fine point to leave off, and if we feel like we can use more time, we can just extend 50 more years to the game.
The Romans had everything but Egypt, England, Alps and Illyria in 50 BC and that seems like enough. If we extend it to 1 AD (which is just hypothetical), Rome would historically have everything but England.
I'll comment on India when I get back from school.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I've been playing Rome Total War again lately, and I feel like it's got a pretty good monopoly on the Roman conquest scene, particularly with its various mods. The mods tend to run from 280 BCE to 1CE. The original game ran from 270 to the civil war, at 50 BCE.

An expansion was released for the Barbarian Invasions, which I think was necessary, as it completely changes the stlye of the game to have barbarians.

 

[JediClemente]

I'd suggest 3000 BC to 100 or 150 AD, with the most turns between 1000 and 100 BC.

Never understood why Civ4 starts at 4000 BC. The mostly established date for the start of civilization is 3000 BC. No Sumer or unified Egypt before that.

(with your timetable it would be 540 turns to 150 AD, you could still add some turns in any period)
And the game shouldn't be supposed to be played till the end unless you play romans. If going for the UHVs, I mean.

 

[The Capo]

Etruscans depends on the size of Italy on the map. Regardless, I think that they should be a minor civ, at least to start with.

Nice leaderheads, Capo. I don't think Mark Anthony would be used as his name-sake, as he never had control, and Augustus would fit better for that time anyway. Perhaps he could be used as some sort of earlier consul, like Scipio or Marius. Yours are very nice,and I think that even Mindaugas could be used as David or a similar ruler if you're okay with that.

Yeah I never meant for Antony to be used as Antony. But Scipio or Marius would be perfect, I just thought the attire fit better than Augustus' would for the time period you are trying to cover. The background should be changed too because its a little on the imperial side. I don't know if Mindaugaus can/should be used as David (actually Ekmek has a David) especially since my Mindaugas technically has a cross on his crown.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I'd suggest 3000 BC to 100 or 150 AD, with the most turns between 1000 and 100 BC.

Never understood why Civ4 starts at 4000 BC. The mostly established date for the start of civilization is 3000 BC. No Sumer or unified Egypt before that.

In this case, I picked 4000 BCE because that's when cities started popping up in Egypt and Sumer. With the smaller scope of this mod, that seemed better.

For starting at 3000 BCE, this might work


3000-2300, 20 years per turn, 35 turns

2300-1800, 10 years per turn, 50 turns

1800-1000, 8 years per turn, 100 turns

and then the same from there. Almost identical number of turns to the 4000 BCE start I posted, just a 5-turn difference.

 

[ZachScape]

I like that a lot more. It could add a few more starting civilizations. We at least need 4. So far the starting ones are:
-Egypt
-Sumer
-Elam (If included)
-Indus Valley (Computer)
Various Independents

Would Judea be one? And what else am I missing?

*See post 15 on Map Development for list of civs.

 

[jessiecat]

I like that a lot more. It could add a few more starting civilizations. We at least need 4. So far the starting ones are:
-Egypt
-Sumer
-Elam (If included)
-Indus Valley (Computer)
Various Independents

Would Judea be one? And what else am I missing?

Have you thought about the Thracians who had a big impact on Classical Greece? Not necessarily as a starting civ but maybe as a playable one at some stage? And the Numidians of course who figured so much as opponents of the Egyptians and later as Carthaginian allies.

 

[ZachScape]

I'll add them to the list. Maybe we can bring the map down a little bit as to add more room for Arabia and Nubia. I'll look up the Thracians, cause I don't know anything about them.

 

[jcb]

This sounds great but I see this mod being (effectively) centered around either 1) the middle east or 2) the italian peninsula

How much of the Earth map are you planning on having available?