RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[sedna17]

I have noticed something through my last several games regarding health. In RFE, our cities seem to be very unhealthy in relation to how they were in RFC. For the life of me I could not figure out why???

Sorry Barak, I guess you missed that in the change-log. I did lower the "free health" bonus in cities by 1 intentionally a few updates ago. My thought was that it was a good way to:

1) Prevent a-historical large early cities
2) Reflect how un-healthly large medieval cities were.

The basic situation is that in normal civ (and RFC), early cities are limited in population by unhappiness. Players manage to keep their cities below the unhappiness limit primarily through slavery (whipping), luxuries, and (later) garrison units. Unhealth is a "softer" way to keep cities small, in the absence of whipping, since it merely slows city growth by decreasing food, rather than generating an unhappy person who sits around not contributing. It is still possible to grow medium-sized cities by using more farms. In particular, grassland farms should allow continued stable growth (+3 food, +2 per new person and +1 for unhealth).

 

[Barak]

That bonus is standard for Civ. It ramps the difficulty in a softer manner than stiff population caps.

Right, i am just reporting that that bonus is not evident in RFC Europe.

 

[Barak]

Sorry Barak, I guess you missed that in the change-log. I did lower the "free health" bonus in cities by 1 intentionally a few updates ago. My thought was that it was a good way to:

1) Prevent a-historical large early cities
2) Reflect how un-healthly large medieval cities were.

The basic situation is that in normal civ (and RFC), early cities are limited in population by unhappiness. Players manage to keep their cities below the unhappiness limit primarily through slavery (whipping), luxuries, and (later) garrison units. Unhealth is a "softer" way to keep cities small, in the absence of whipping, since it merely slows city growth by decreasing food, rather than generating an unhappy person who sits around not contributing. It is still possible to grow medium-sized cities by using more farms. In particular, grassland farms should allow continued stable growth (+3 food, +2 per new person and +1 for unhealth).

This does all make sense to me, but for the fact that certain civs NEVER will be able to get healthy. Early on, I agree that the "Dark Age" of Europe should be unhealthy, but coastal civs would have an inherent bonus due to fishing and lighthouse bonuses. Considering that there are fewer health buildings early, it makes the plagues hit hard (by design), but the central European civs are more unhealthy.

My solution would be either to add +1 health to the apothacary building or add more wheat.

Naturally later in the tech tree the cities should get more healthy, but I find that they really don't. Fresh water and forestry really doesn't add all that much.

 

[Whitefire]

Hai guys. Can I play too?

First off, I want to congratulate and thank everyone who worked on this project. The idea has only been around for some 3 years, but it finally happened! RFC Asia anyone?

Anyway, I decided to play the Norse and try to break all of your hard work. Here's how it went!

I settled Aarhus and sent my galley to western Scandanavia. After exploring, I realized the best spot for the capital is actually 1 NW, leaving room 1SW1E for another city.

Right off the bat, I notice that I start with way too many techs: 5. This is Monarch, not Settler level, so every early civ should start out with 2 (The AI getting 3 or 4 on Emperor). The Norse were what? 20 turns in? At best that counts as 1 bonus tech.

Catapults come far too early and, what's sillier, I have them from the word go. So of course my buildpath is Worker-->Cat-->Barracks. Why build a settler when you have Catapults?

Now I'm looking at the tech tree and BAM!, I can get Crossbowmen for a 701 cost tech. The only pre-req being access to Iron. Well with Tonsberg up north with a lone Archer to defend and me with Catapults...you get the picture.

Only to find that on the next turn, Tonsburg flips to me. So, cakewalk invasion setup done for me, all that's left is to pop Tonsburg's borders to claim iron and finish Machinery. I switch from Machinery to Theology in order to get Monastaries to pop borders and switch focus to workers and barracks.

Only to find on the next turn that Tonsburg gets a border pop. At this point, I leave to get some alcohol, I have a feeling I won't need to be on point to win this game >.>

 

[Whitefire]

The Norse UP does not work. My starting Galley and Tireme cannot enter ocean tiles.

 

[Whitefire]

Naturally later in the tech tree the cities should get more healthy, but I find that they really don't. Fresh water and forestry really doesn't add all that much.

You could add in dead-end conceptual techs like "Salt Curing" or "Improved Drying Methods" to increase the health bonus of resources without requiring buildings.

 

[Barak]

The Norse UP does not work. My starting Galley and Tireme cannot enter ocean tiles.

This is a known issue and being worked on.

 

[jessiecat]

You could add in dead-end conceptual techs like "Salt Curing" or "Improved Drying Methods" to increase the health bonus of resources without requiring buildings.

Welcome back. You were there at the beginning.
Just to say The Norse don't start at turn 20. Remember the mod begins in 500AD. So 770AD equates to about turn 67. When we discussed starting techs we used a rough yardstick of about 15 turns per early tech. So 5 techs for 67 turns isn't really that overpowered is it?
BTW You won't be able to win as the Norse just yet. The UHV condition and UP concerning crossing ocean tiles hasn't been fixed yet. Try Bulgaria instead. I've just done it and its fun. (see post 277 above).

 

[3Miro]

Norse stuff was just fixed. The Tech costs needs to be fixed for all techs.

 

[Whitefire]

Good to know. I'm going to cheat and add in a ocean-going vessel for the second UHV, then go for Conquest/Domination.

 

[jessiecat]

Good to know. I'm going to cheat and add in a ocean-going vessel for the second UHV, then go for Conquest/Domination.

You don't have to do that. Download the latest version posted today. You'll find that the Norse UP and UHV's now work. And Tonsberg spawns later and doesn't flip. I'm playing them at this moment and I just got the first UHV condition. A tip for you though. The 3 cities in Britain have to be on the mainland. Neither Orkney or the Western Isles seem to count as Britain. My Scottish friends will be upset to learn that.

 

[Whitefire]

It's fine, I'm going to finish this game. Are there any civs that haven't been played yet? I was thinking of trying the Dutch.

 

[jessiecat]

It's fine, I'm going to finish this game. Are there any civs that haven't been played yet? I was thinking of trying the Dutch.

I don't think many of us has played a full game as the Byzantines. They could be quite a challenge though they won't collapse if you don't lose Constantinople.

 

[micbic]

I don't think many of us has played a full game as the Byzantines. They could be quite a challenge though they won't collapse if you don't lose Constantinople.

I will!!! Time to drive the Byzantines to ultimate rise... (Viceroy or Monarch?)

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Has anyone tried a game as for example Sweden and so tested what the world looks like? I'm thinking of doing that, would be interesting to see how the AI acts.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

I did that several times for the Nov. 27 version but I haven't done it with the newest versions. The biggest problem is that Civs go through the tech tree too quickly.

I think Austria is still vastly underpowered - they always are always at the bottom of the list and need a bigger flip zone.

 

[3Miro]

You don't have to do that. Download the latest version posted today. You'll find that the Norse UP and UHV's now work. And Tonsberg spawns later and doesn't flip. I'm playing them at this moment and I just got the first UHV condition. A tip for you though. The 3 cities in Britain have to be on the mainland. Neither Orkney or the Western Isles seem to count as Britain. My Scottish friends will be upset to learn that.

There is main island of Britain and Ireland that counts as a separate island. The problem I guess comes from the changes on the map. I have not had much tme to look at those, but changes to the terrain means that I would have to redo the UHV control areas. If previously water tiles are now land, then perhaps they are not counted as part of Britain in the Norse UHV.

 

[st.lucifer]

I started a game as the Dutch to make sure they were functional and see how the start went, but I had to let it run overnight to load and I didn't spend a lot of time with the game.

We may want to wait on playtesting the colonial civs since we can't do anything with those UHV conditions yet.

 

[Whitefire]

Short Version: Macemen and Crossbowmen come far too early. Norse UHV and UP screwed in this version. Stability also needs to be more severe, unless this is testing.

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So, I finished off Theology, then went Astrolabe for the UB and then back to Machinery. Since my cities were just founded, I needed time to grow and grab resources before the Crossbow invasion.

Technology trading comes too early with Monasticism. I understand conceptually why it was chosen, but it gives the Human far too much of an advantage. Pour your research into one, expensive, relativly useless tech, say Lateen Sails for all the landlocked civs, and you're able to leap ahead in techs. Also, there is a typo in the XML, the tech currently reads "Monasticsm".

Machinery in hand and unsure exactly how to proceed next, I went for Herbal Medicine. Extra Health and a happy are never bad. The first wave of the Norse raiders came to Edinburgh in 924AD. After the sack of Edinburgh I quickly started on Settlers and Crossbowmen, and used my first Berserkers on Dublin in 945.

With Ireland, Scotland and all of Scandanavia open to me, I decided to switch to rexing...after I sacked Lubeck in 981AD

Meanwhile, I had finished Herbal Medicine and decided on Art in order to get some culture in my cities. I have yet to have a religion spread to me. After Art I went with Feudalism, Vassals for Stability and it's a somewhat Military tech. Picked up Music from the Franks the same turn.

I'm noticing that Stability is quite leanient. Is that by design so we can test UHVs and what not or the intended level?

Speaking of, I assaulted Eboracum in 990AD in order to complete the first requirement of the UHV. I finally got Catholicism! =) Although, I could build the misssionary without a Monastary, is that intended? First UHV req in hand, I decided to go for the second. This required some cheating by gifting myself a Galleon in order to reach Iceland.

In 1000AD I got both the first and third UHVs given to me. Not sure why...

Germany came groveling to become their Vassal. It's nice to see the AI begging me for help when the Franks, Burgundians and Moscowans are dogpiling.

I settled Killarney for Stone in order to spam some Castles after REXing. Those Overseas bonuses are nice.

With Richard teching like a madman, I decided to try and knock him down a peg or two, and take that French city i needed for the UHV. I marched a modest stack out and DoWed him. I was hoping that his focus on Germany would leave a city or two open to my sacking horde.

Got Feudalism and went for Blast Furnace with an eye toward Military Tradition. I got lucky at Dijon when Richard moved his lone Crossbow out of the city. In 1023, Dijon fell.

The loss of their capital plunged Burgundy into instability, so hopefully one threat gone. As a bonus I got my first Great General as well! I settled him in Edinburgh in order to start pumping out lvl2 units to crush England.

Much to my pleasure, Burgundy was no more the next turn =). With my GA ended and my economy about to collapse, I had to make a sore deal with Pietro. $@*%ing Italians. Castles, Markets and Courthouses became the name of the game. Then again, I am surprised I lasted this long without my economy crashing. that GA came at the exact time I needed it.

I picked up Hungary as a vassal to stave off instability and was sorely tempted to snatch up Germany as well. Unfortunately, that would put me at war with the Franks, and I needed them as allies in the upcoming war with England.

Lots of boring turns managing the economy =/. Had some pesky Independants pump out 4 Triremes which stalled my stabilization of the economy. I debated what to do with my GM, then used him to bulb Clockrowk in order to open up Heavy Crossbowmen. I also jumped into Electorate and OR, since my Religion was finally spreading and I had enough happies for some specialists.

Jorvik flipped to the English, as predicted, and I kept my military buildup in Edinburgh going. Everywhere else was still trying to save my economy (slider down to 40%).

The revolution caused me to drop from Stable to Shaky, so I picked up Moscow as a vassal. I also nabbed Chartes as a city. I know it will flip eventually, but I will hopefully be in a position to stave off the Dutch come that time. Got a scientist in 1113AD and settled him in Aarhus. Coincidentally (maybe not) my economy started to rebound the same turn. So I moved some cities from economy builds to Military in order to crush those pesky Englishmen.

I ended up taking Germany on as a vassal after the Franks lost land to a Burgundian revolution. It only entatailed a war with the Burgundians and Poles, which I knew I could stave off. In fact Ujscie was completely undefended. It was just too nice of a target to pass up.

Next up was the recapture of Jorvik and sack of London. With that, England's fate was sealed. In 1176, Oxford was razed and England no more.

With England handled and Poland nicely in hand, I had to pick my next target. But that will have to wait until my next load.

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The Norse are boring. Overpowered starting spot + great early military techs + no close neighbors + lenient stability makes for an easy RFC game. I'm going to try Byzantine.

 

[civmademepoor]

Just tried an easy viceroy game as Burgundy, and the game kept stalling at 1242 so I've given up. A few things I noticed:

Burgundy could use some eastern cities added to it's map, maybe Metz, Aix-la-Chappelle, Worms, Sarrebruck, Mulhouse, Wissembourg and/or Saint-Dié. I mention this as everytime I play as Burgundy, I end up founding Chartres somewhere in the Alsace/Rhineland region. Another partial solution would be for Worms, Strassbourg, Trier or Luxembourg to start as an independent. It's difficult to say as I have some trouble figuring out exactly where I am in that area. I also founded Grenoble where I believe Mulhouse or perhaps Basel ought to be. I also don't know why but when Lyon flips it turns into Valence, I think it should stay Lyon.

England was pretty good at expanding into Scotland and Wales, but for some reason had only London and York in England. (the "new" Britain looks beautiful, by the way).

The French/Burgundian and English city names don't match up when they probably ought to. Le Havre turned into Dieppe, for example. Le Havre probably shouldn't be named that at all, as it was founded in the 16th century. Rouen, while inland, might be a better compromise for that spot. If we want to keep it strictly coastal, perhaps Honfleur. There should also be apples nearby.

Overall, much smoother and faster. Could someone tell me a little more what the numbers in the stability boxes are referring to?