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RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by st.lucifer, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    Stability numbers: permanent, varying every 3 turns and temporary. Permanent stability refers to stability that has changed for one reason or another and stays there (i.e. -3 points for every anarchy, -x points for loosing a city). Some things (mainly economy and some expansion and foreign) is computed every 3 turns. Those things depend directly on your current situation, i.e. number of OB, number of defensive pacts and so on. The third part is temp stability that comes from Great Depression (in RFC not RFCE), or -20 for 1 turn following anarchy. (Some categories do not have temporary instability, jut permanent and varying every 3 turns).

    The model of stability as taken 1-1 from RFC did not work for RFCE. Pretty much all the AI players collapsed about 50 turns after spawn. So I had to make changes (also everyone complained that stability was too-harsh, now people are complaining it was too-easy :) ).

    - Expansion outside "natural" borders in RFC is heavily penalized. I had to nerf that penalty since RFCE suggests that one is likely to control several cities outside the "natural" borders. (in RFC the penalty for even 1 city is huge, in RFC there are very few cities anyways). I have to tweak that, I probably nerfed it too much.

    - Economy: the model that Rhye was using for the Economy made little sense to me (I admit that it works, but it is somewhat unnatural to me). Rhye took in consideration mainly food production and considered food per real people. The number of real people in the empire (as shown by the demographics screen) exhibits power growth (in every city, count the number of the size (size 4, size 6, size 10) and raise it to the power 2.8). The actual food production of the empire grows at most linearly (it exhibits heavy initial growth and then it drops to linear). That results in huge penalty for having large cities (IIRC every city beyond size 8 was inevitably economically unstable). Second point was that commerce part of the Economy considered only raw commerce (from rivers, sea and cottages), it did not take into account merchant specialists or bonuses from markets and banks. That leads to inherit Economical instability.

    I wanted to change the Economical part to something that makes sense. So I wanted people to take screen shots of typical cities of size 4-6, 8-10 and 14-16 and post them (take screen shot when in the city screen). I wanted to see what typical game is so I can change the economical part and reward markets and banks and merchant specialists and do not punish so heavily large city growth.

    Bottom line, stability needs more work.

    In another matter, the Norse UHV and UP are supposed to work on the new version (Dec 3). If they don't please post a save-game couple of turns before you notice the problem.
     
  2. KaiserBenjamin

    KaiserBenjamin Warlord

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    Since ya'll were talking about stability, I felt I should report the results of a Dutch start. I didn't play the game, but just decided to check out the situation by 1540.

    Francia, Burgundy, England, Genoa, and Germany had all collapsed so basically the entire north western side of the map was Independents. Some of this territory had been conquered by Spain and Bulgaria, both of whom were also unstable as of the Dutch spawn, but the vast majority was just Independents. I can post the save if you want, but since there were concerns that civs were too stable, I thought I should let you know.
     
  3. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer King

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    A couple of observations:

    Independents are still ahead on tech of mid-late spawning civs. While they should have competitive military units, they're pretty far ahead of me in a game as England (and Edinburgh is impressively impregnable, which is great).
    There are also marauding independent stacks of death, complete with trebuchets, taking out entire civs. Germany collapsed to an indpendent invasion; Genoa just lost a heavily defended and walled Pisae.


    Mines and watermills now clear forest, while farms don't. Did we get this backwards?

    Venice doesn't know how to use boats, which has limited it to a single city with no developed tiles.

    Portugal's flip zone/core area needs to extend north at least to the wine above the river N of Lisboa (near where Porto would be), and east at least to the sulfur.

    The Bulgarian city map doesn't seem to be working properly - there's a Zohak and an Ergili both within modern-day Moldavia.

    The Norse are Islamic!
     
  4. Whitefire

    Whitefire Emperor

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    I think it needs to be more severe for certain regions that were historically known to resist outside rule. Cities founded in the Lowlands or in Swiss territory, for example. Also, you might think of cutting the world into Christin and Islamic territory. If you capture a city in a region not aligned with your religion, you take a huge penalty.

    1) You are meant to lose points in economic stability. Remember, you aren't supossed to have perpetual growth in all areas at all times.

    2) Specialists should count toward the economy equation. I've yelled at Rhye about this several times, because from observations it doesn't seem like the specialists are being counted, and he always assures me that they are factored in.

    Although, we might want to move this discussion to another thread...
     
  5. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    The only specialists that are factored in RFC are the hammer producing ones. The hammers are counted towards the GNP.

    Upon growth (in RFC) of GNP one gets permanent stability bonus, but the bonus appears only for very large growth. Even for relatively small decline of GNP, one gets permanent penalty. I think this is the main reason why civs start stable and most of them sooner or later collapse.

    GNP counts mostly hammers, less so food and little commerce (raw commerce, from rivers, cottages and trade routes).

    Should we penalize a civ in 1500AD that they had a loss in GNP in 700AD? I see economy as something "right here, right now", past events (positive or negative) would have little effect on the economy. The important thing should be, what are we producing (counting all specialists) and do we have enough Markets\Banks\Forges for the size of our empire.
     
  6. Whitefire

    Whitefire Emperor

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    I think applying the current economy equation with the change of pure commerce to beaker+gold output is a better place to start. If it seems too steep of a curve, then start throttling it down. I think with the large decrease in expansion penalties, players will still find stability less stringent than in RFC.

    So I tried the Byzantines, but they aren't so fun right now. Decided to go with the Bulgars.

    The trade value on new techs seems to be off. I just traded a 96 beaker tech (stirrups) for a 400+ beaker tech (herbal medicine).
     
  7. sedna17

    sedna17 Emperor

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    Yeah, we know tech costs need to be looked at. Partly that's my fault 'cause when I re-arranged the tech tree I didn't change costs. If someone wanted to go through the tech tree and come up with an appropriate cost for each tech, that would make it faster for 3Miro (or myself) to code up.
     
  8. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    Report from Byzantine playtesting at Monarch:

    1) First UHV kinda easy. Main rivals against Constantinople were my own cities...
    2) The only thing that goes correctly for me as up to now. Stability is collapsing-until 1050 I had all my Asian (except Ephesus, Nicaea) and African cities seized by independents.
    3) Tech rate is slower than a turtle (is it a Byzantine modifier?) even if I get a decent (?)120-130 points per turn. I was struggling to keep my rate at 30% (now I balance it at 40-50%)
    4) With my empire consisting of Ephesus, Nicaea, Athina, Thessalonica, Hadrianople and the capital, decided to expand in a more ''centralized'' way and built Larissa, Philippopolis and Nicomedia.
    5) With stability still at collapsing, I found a way to minimize it: Observing that the only revolter was Larissa, when I was recapturing it, I left no military units inside. So when it revolts, it is undefended (to stop this, an idea could be deleting all city's units and adding 2 of archery units.
    6) Currently at 1130 AD. No way to achieve second UHV with that research rate and that economy, especially now that all my revolted cities are.... Saladin's. From looks at the Wordbuilder, I can see he has started the ''great transition to the Magreb''. The Spanish have built many cities (and captured Tolosa and Marsel), the Hungarians need a small fix at South Carpathian basin (I'll post the version 1.01 of Hungarian platform with that change), and moreover I think they expand too much towards the Carpathians (Croatian area could be a better idea). The Norse have three cities in Sweden but one in mainland Denmark, French have more cities (but less technology) than Burgundy, indies don't seem that strong, no empire has collapsed yet...(they await my collapse to start!)
    Will re-post when reached 1500 AD.

    By the way, what cities count as Anatolia for the second UHV?
     
  9. Barak

    Barak Emperor

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    Did the genoan UHV get fixed?
     
  10. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    Don't think so. Norse was but not Genoa. Maybe next time.
     
  11. Whitefire

    Whitefire Emperor

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    As it stands, the English UP is useless. A trade of 1:food: for 2:hammers: is decent, except when you factor in the bonuses that other improvements get. Since Workshops don't get any bonuses until the end of the game - And by the end, I mean the end - you're far better off plopping down a Town or Farm, which will yield you more the entire length of the game. The only spot I would use it on is a Plains tile, which England is short of =/.
     
  12. Barak

    Barak Emperor

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    I agree. Perhaps an extra production for a cottage? Which would then carry over as the cottage grows into a town.
     
  13. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer King

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    That was the original idea, but I thought it might be too powerful. I worried about England turtling and outteching everybody, but I didn't count on Bulgaria being a nation of Newtons and Einsteins. Maybe the original idea would work.
     
  14. hendriksen

    hendriksen Chieftain

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    I started a game as the swedish, and I want to report a minor issue.
    With the swedish UP all units are given formation promotion, that works well. But I think it isn't really necessary to give naval units a promotion against horses:rolleyes:
     

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  15. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    What is wrong with the Genoa's UP.

    Changing the Swedish UP would be hard, it makes no sense, but I will leave it for now.

    Should I change the English one, it is very easy.

    I will fix the tech rate, there need to be updated tech cost and tech rate for all nations.
     
  16. sedna17

    sedna17 Emperor

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    What, you've never heard of sea horses?
     
  17. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    The first two UHV conditions aren't working. Controlling the Adriatic, having a city in mainland Greece, Crete and Cyprus is not recognized. Neither does it seem to register when you conquer Rhodes for the 2nd. one.
     
  18. Barak

    Barak Emperor

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    Did the Genoan UHV recently change? On an older version from November 23 i think, the first condition was control Milan, Sardinia and Marseille. Which was broken.

    the 2nd was control Crete, Cyprus and Crimea, which was also broken.
     
  19. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    You're right. I was thinking about Venice. Sorry.
     
  20. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    Just to report my 3rd. UHV victory completed as Cordoba in 1510AD. I could have had it in minimum time (1500) if I hadn't wasted time trying to keep indy cities out of Iberia. Apparently control of Iberia only means free of other civs. Having independent cities doesn't stop the UHV.
     

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