RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
Having just tried to Dutch UHV, I have to agree with merijn that's essentially impossible. Cutting down on the number of settled Merchants required (to three or four from five) would make it less of a problem, but it would still be very difficult.
JediClemente
Prince
I had 6 great merchants, 1 great engineer and 1 great priest before the UHV time limit.
Though there were already two cities in the flip zone, one of them, Utrecht, greatly developped. It depends on the situation when you spawn, I suppose.
Also, I always play with new random seed on reload. Can't stand generating a certain great person when it only has 2% probability. I've seen it happen too many times.
Though there were already two cities in the flip zone, one of them, Utrecht, greatly developped. It depends on the situation when you spawn, I suppose.
Also, I always play with new random seed on reload. Can't stand generating a certain great person when it only has 2% probability. I've seen it happen too many times.
Great work you doing here guys! Thanx a lot!
Some notes if I may, sorry if they were mentioned before:
Map
1. Genoa and Rome have same [Ancient Roman] flag
2. Austrian and German coat-of-arms seem to be misplaced: two-headed black eagle is the coat of Habsburg Emperor.
3. Venice Power of Trade has "r" missing
4. No such Ukrainian city as Kremenchursk - you might've thought of Kremenchug
5. Please prolong Volga river from Kazan to Samara and make Don river whole.
Units
6. Huszar replaces Pistollier while requiring Optics instead of Flintlock and being extremely cheaper - looks like a potential imbalance.
7. Keshiken being high-power light cavalry are much less counterable by pointed-stick users - they are equal to pikes in the open (12+1st strike vs 10*1,25)! Looks imbalanced, as you get pikes (and even longbows) so much later, and guisarmes are no match. Maybe knights should be switch to later - starting as Muscovites, you can get knights at 5th tech, while pikes - at 18th!
8. Austrian Kuirassier with his +50% vs pretty much all defenders and 1st strike immunity is pretty scary. They beat line infantry, their counter! Propose to tone down them (retain ~+20% vs gunpowder) and all cuirassiers - the age of heavy cavalry was the late medieval, this is the age of line infantry, so power cut from 20 to 16-18 can be used, with appropriate toning down of Hussars and Dragoons. Otherwise you'll see after a couple of collateral attacks cuirassiers easily smashing down anything anyone can provide.
9. Berber Cav - extra MP, especially 3rd, is a very tricky thing in multi. Overall together with extra high withdrawal chance, defensive bonuses and ignoring first strikes - might turn out pretty OP.
10. English Longbow twice cheaper than ordinary one is a game breaker. It doesn't have bonuses vs heavy infantry or cavalry on top of that, and this looks contrary to history. If all, I'd like to boost them due to superior strength (and drill and formation here look perfectly ok) while retaining all other bonuses and cost of ordinary longbow.
11. Grenadiers are technologically too far away from line infantry they're supposed to counter.
12. Would like to see cossacks closer to regular civ and life - i.e. higher retreat chance than regular cuirassiers, not vice versa. As it is, renders Hussar and Dragoon units useless, and they require another tech to research. Maybe tone their strength towards dragoon and give bonus vs cavalry would be the thing.
Some other UUs might see buff-up, like Winged Hussars and Boyars.
Buildings
1. Folwark effect looks puny. +2 food, perhaps?
2. Mint effect is a wonderful idea!
3. Rathaus+Manor+Night Watch = -100% Maintenance. I propose either toning down maintenance effect from chouse and rathaus by 25% each, together with cost, or just drop out manor alltogether and maintenance effect for Night Watch.
3.5. And how does this stack with Muscowy power?
4. Can't quite catch logic behind Kremlin - medieval Russia had little to do with Espionage, however used to build strong fortresses vs their western neighbours and defend them skillfully.
Ready to assist if required!
Some notes if I may, sorry if they were mentioned before:
Map
1. Genoa and Rome have same [Ancient Roman] flag
2. Austrian and German coat-of-arms seem to be misplaced: two-headed black eagle is the coat of Habsburg Emperor.
3. Venice Power of Trade has "r" missing
4. No such Ukrainian city as Kremenchursk - you might've thought of Kremenchug
5. Please prolong Volga river from Kazan to Samara and make Don river whole.
Units
6. Huszar replaces Pistollier while requiring Optics instead of Flintlock and being extremely cheaper - looks like a potential imbalance.
7. Keshiken being high-power light cavalry are much less counterable by pointed-stick users - they are equal to pikes in the open (12+1st strike vs 10*1,25)! Looks imbalanced, as you get pikes (and even longbows) so much later, and guisarmes are no match. Maybe knights should be switch to later - starting as Muscovites, you can get knights at 5th tech, while pikes - at 18th!
8. Austrian Kuirassier with his +50% vs pretty much all defenders and 1st strike immunity is pretty scary. They beat line infantry, their counter! Propose to tone down them (retain ~+20% vs gunpowder) and all cuirassiers - the age of heavy cavalry was the late medieval, this is the age of line infantry, so power cut from 20 to 16-18 can be used, with appropriate toning down of Hussars and Dragoons. Otherwise you'll see after a couple of collateral attacks cuirassiers easily smashing down anything anyone can provide.
9. Berber Cav - extra MP, especially 3rd, is a very tricky thing in multi. Overall together with extra high withdrawal chance, defensive bonuses and ignoring first strikes - might turn out pretty OP.
10. English Longbow twice cheaper than ordinary one is a game breaker. It doesn't have bonuses vs heavy infantry or cavalry on top of that, and this looks contrary to history. If all, I'd like to boost them due to superior strength (and drill and formation here look perfectly ok) while retaining all other bonuses and cost of ordinary longbow.
11. Grenadiers are technologically too far away from line infantry they're supposed to counter.
12. Would like to see cossacks closer to regular civ and life - i.e. higher retreat chance than regular cuirassiers, not vice versa. As it is, renders Hussar and Dragoon units useless, and they require another tech to research. Maybe tone their strength towards dragoon and give bonus vs cavalry would be the thing.
Some other UUs might see buff-up, like Winged Hussars and Boyars.
Buildings
1. Folwark effect looks puny. +2 food, perhaps?
2. Mint effect is a wonderful idea!
3. Rathaus+Manor+Night Watch = -100% Maintenance. I propose either toning down maintenance effect from chouse and rathaus by 25% each, together with cost, or just drop out manor alltogether and maintenance effect for Night Watch.
3.5. And how does this stack with Muscowy power?
4. Can't quite catch logic behind Kremlin - medieval Russia had little to do with Espionage, however used to build strong fortresses vs their western neighbours and defend them skillfully.
Ready to assist if required!
3Miro
Deity
A lot of good observations and things to consider.
One point, there is no MP for RFCE and there probably would not be one.
One point, there is no MP for RFCE and there probably would not be one.
Few more notes, mostly regarding balance
1. At Muscowy start you have techs and resources for armored lancer as the peak of offensive and crossbow and guisarme (1 tech away) for defense. Attacking city:
heavy lancer vs crossbow
11 vs 5*(1 + 50% vs heavy cav + 10% lancer vs city) = 8
The heavy lancer wil just tear through, and even teching all the way to arbalest does not improve the situation. To even things out you need walls at least, or 25% from fortify and 40% culture - this will at least make people bring siege.
If you try to attack the stack of heavy lancers with your guisarme:
heavy lancer vs guisarme in the open
11 vs 6*(1+75%) = 10,5, i.e. you expect to lose some 60% of the battles, and the unit is supposed to be the counter.
Summary: so far the key strategy until enemy get longbows and pikes is to build nothing but stacks of heavy lancers, and later - knights, without even protection from pole arms. Man-at-arms costs 14% less than heavy lancer, but has power 7 vs 11, 1 less move, and has no chance to be built, as well as macemen ad even foot knights - unless you have no horses, that is, but then you're screwed.
Proposal: tone down heavy cavalry. Lancers are 7, but heavy lancers are suddenly 11 and dominate the field; same with knights, and I;ve already written about cuirassiers. I propose power 9 for heavy lancer, 11 for knight, 10 for keshik - this will solve quite a lot of problems.
2. I'd lso check if +% for trade routes require buffing - the base value have significantly decreased in BtS comparing with Warlords.
3. Overall, the different tech paths look too intertwined: why Alchemy for Guilds, for example?
4. Moscowite UB requires stone for fast production, as well as its prereq. The closest stone is at Prague, next - in ALbania
maybe put some stone resource towards Ural mountains?
I also propose adding Atlantic route to StPetersburg and Constantinopolis locations, and perhas to one of Italian merchant cities.
Bugs/inaccuracies:
1. I can build watermils without replaceable parts (Muscowy start)
2. As I've said, farm do not remove dense forest, but you can't chop it. And it gives no +health to city unlike regular forest.
3. Mines do not remove forest, which retains its +1 hammer.
4. Samara after flipping to Muscowy renamed to Petrovsk - should retain the same name.
5. Muscowy starts with Education - huh? We had 1st university in 18th century.
6. The correct name for Kazan-location city on Volga ntil 13th century is Bulgar. Kazan was founded by Tatars.
7. Producing culture (and, I expect, research and wealth as well) gives only 50% hammer output like Vanilla, while in Warlords and BtS it's 100%
1. At Muscowy start you have techs and resources for armored lancer as the peak of offensive and crossbow and guisarme (1 tech away) for defense. Attacking city:
heavy lancer vs crossbow
11 vs 5*(1 + 50% vs heavy cav + 10% lancer vs city) = 8
The heavy lancer wil just tear through, and even teching all the way to arbalest does not improve the situation. To even things out you need walls at least, or 25% from fortify and 40% culture - this will at least make people bring siege.
If you try to attack the stack of heavy lancers with your guisarme:
heavy lancer vs guisarme in the open
11 vs 6*(1+75%) = 10,5, i.e. you expect to lose some 60% of the battles, and the unit is supposed to be the counter.
Summary: so far the key strategy until enemy get longbows and pikes is to build nothing but stacks of heavy lancers, and later - knights, without even protection from pole arms. Man-at-arms costs 14% less than heavy lancer, but has power 7 vs 11, 1 less move, and has no chance to be built, as well as macemen ad even foot knights - unless you have no horses, that is, but then you're screwed.
Proposal: tone down heavy cavalry. Lancers are 7, but heavy lancers are suddenly 11 and dominate the field; same with knights, and I;ve already written about cuirassiers. I propose power 9 for heavy lancer, 11 for knight, 10 for keshik - this will solve quite a lot of problems.
2. I'd lso check if +% for trade routes require buffing - the base value have significantly decreased in BtS comparing with Warlords.
3. Overall, the different tech paths look too intertwined: why Alchemy for Guilds, for example?
4. Moscowite UB requires stone for fast production, as well as its prereq. The closest stone is at Prague, next - in ALbania
maybe put some stone resource towards Ural mountains?I also propose adding Atlantic route to StPetersburg and Constantinopolis locations, and perhas to one of Italian merchant cities.
Bugs/inaccuracies:
1. I can build watermils without replaceable parts (Muscowy start)
2. As I've said, farm do not remove dense forest, but you can't chop it. And it gives no +health to city unlike regular forest.
3. Mines do not remove forest, which retains its +1 hammer.
4. Samara after flipping to Muscowy renamed to Petrovsk - should retain the same name.
5. Muscowy starts with Education - huh? We had 1st university in 18th century.
6. The correct name for Kazan-location city on Volga ntil 13th century is Bulgar. Kazan was founded by Tatars.
7. Producing culture (and, I expect, research and wealth as well) gives only 50% hammer output like Vanilla, while in Warlords and BtS it's 100%
JediClemente
Prince
Maybe it's a stupid question, but why does Roma get a cultural 5x5 square everytime? Can't it be a fat cross so Napoli gets the food resource?
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Map:
1. We work on this, it would probably changed in the next game by jessiecat and Sedna 17.
3. It already stands on the to do list. (accualy I noticed it by myself)
Units:
6. IMO their is nothing wrong with it. It has a good price for the time you can build it.
7. Keshik were LIGHT cavalry. Almost lighter than the horse-archers. (in fact it were horse-archers) You can kill them easily with armored, lancers. You only have to build stables etc. and if you give them 2 combat, they have about 70% win chance.
8. You're right on this. But IMO we should give them al +50% attack bonus, so they haven't a good defense.
10. This is also noticed (and again by me)
11. I think you're right on this.
Buildings:
1. I see your point, but the Khmer Baray has the same power, so IMO it should be like it is.
2. For which building?
3. That's their UB, so it has a realy strong power, but IMO it is a good power.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Few more notes, mostly regarding balance
1. At Muscowy start you have techs and resources for armored lancer as the peak of offensive and crossbow and guisarme (1 tech away) for defense. Attacking city:
heavy lancer vs crossbow
11 vs 5*(1 + 50% vs heavy cav + 10% lancer vs city) = 8
The heavy lancer wil just tear through, and even teching all the way to arbalest does not improve the situation. To even things out you need walls at least, or 25% from fortify and 40% culture - this will at least make people bring siege.
If you try to attack the stack of heavy lancers with your guisarme:
heavy lancer vs guisarme in the open
11 vs 6*(1+75%) = 10,5, i.e. you expect to lose some 60% of the battles, and the unit is supposed to be the counter.
Summary: so far the key strategy until enemy get longbows and pikes is to build nothing but stacks of heavy lancers, and later - knights, without even protection from pole arms. Man-at-arms costs 14% less than heavy lancer, but has power 7 vs 11, 1 less move, and has no chance to be built, as well as macemen ad even foot knights - unless you have no horses, that is, but then you're screwed.
Proposal: tone down heavy cavalry. Lancers are 7, but heavy lancers are suddenly 11 and dominate the field; same with knights, and I;ve already written about cuirassiers. I propose power 9 for heavy lancer, 11 for knight, 10 for keshik - this will solve quite a lot of problems.
2. I'd lso check if +% for trade routes require buffing - the base value have significantly decreased in BtS comparing with Warlords.
4. Moscowite UB requires stone for fast production, as well as its prereq. The closest stone is at Prague, next - in ALbania
I also propose adding Atlantic route to StPetersburg and Constantinopolis locations, and perhas to one of Italian merchant cities.
Bugs/inaccuracies:
1. I can build watermils without replaceable parts (Muscowy start)
2. As I've said, farm do not remove dense forest, but you can't chop it. And it gives no +health to city unlike regular forest.
3. Mines do not remove forest, which retains its +1 hammer.
7. Producing culture (and, I expect, research and wealth as well) gives only 50% hammer output like Vanilla, while in Warlords and BtS it's 100%
1. Armored Cavalry has - 10% city attack. We know that it is easy, but the AI don't. Why shouldn't we use that advantage? If you want to conquere it I think its nice to do it easy sometimes. And I also like it when the AI is weak and I'm strong.
2. Not all the thing has to be the same. You have less % per building, but you have many more buildings.
4. It has the double production because the Castle has it. And their aren't Ural mountains.
Why, they hadn't really important colonies.
Bugs:
1. You need machinery. Moscow has that tech. RP only improves the watermills. I think that is logical.
2. DENSE forest is so DENSE you can't walk through it. Thats why it hasn't bonusses I think.
3. We had discussed that a few pages ago. If you want to know why it is so, I recommend to read it.
7. I think it has a reason, but I don't know it.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
A couple of comments. The flags are still being worked on. Sedna will hopefully replace some of them with more historical ones soon. We have the art. Its just adapting it to our existing flags.
The point about the lack of stone is a good one. There are many instances where a civ lacks an important resource early in the game. We need to look again at where resources are located. A good example is the Arabs. No iron or horses near their starting cities. Even though historically they bred the finest horses in the world. So they can't build their UU or any good cavalry unit. Arabs without cavalry? How crazy is that?
I agree with you about the colonies. Only those civs which border on the Atlantic or historically had overseas colonies really need to build them. The rest, like Moscow and the Ottomans don't require colonies for their UHV. So they don't need Atlantic Access. That is intentional.
Thanx for the reply
6. Huszar requires Optics (at least, according to Pedia) while Pistollier requires Flintlock which is quite more expensive to get and is at the totally different tech branch, while as a rule UUs have the same tech requirements as usual counterparts. And anyway, such massive discount of 1/3 of cost looks too heavy.
7. Sorry, I thought there was a playable Mongol Civ. As a scenario AI-controlled unit, no big deal, you're right.
Buildings
1. Well, I for one always considered it rather lame However, this map looks food rich but not hammer rich - maybe, 1 food+1 hammer effect?
3. It's makes rathaus not just good but overpowered. City maintenance is your highest cost contributor almost always in regular BtS.
Units:
6. Huszar requires Optics (at least, according to Pedia) while Pistollier requires Flintlock which is quite more expensive to get and is at the totally different tech branch, while as a rule UUs have the same tech requirements as usual counterparts. And anyway, such massive discount of 1/3 of cost looks too heavy.
7. Sorry, I thought there was a playable Mongol Civ. As a scenario AI-controlled unit, no big deal, you're right.
Buildings
1. Well, I for one always considered it rather lame
However, this map looks food rich but not hammer rich - maybe, 1 food+1 hammer effect?3. It's makes rathaus not just good but overpowered. City maintenance is your highest cost contributor almost always in regular BtS.
1. They do have, and I used it in the calculation. However, I believe for easy conquest one should better use lower difficulty levels, not the broken balance system. I would still like to see this Mod as the one attractive for multiplayer, like FFH.
4. We can have some in Karelia, for example - we are currently building a quarry there, excelent granite deposits
It not required, but it would definitely help, especialy as you normally do not build castles.Bugs
1. Yeah, read it wrong, silly me.
2. What I was saying is that after I build farm on it, the dense forest is stil there, with -1F+1H and 50% defense bonus.
7. The reason is I believe the vanilla features embedded in Rhye's mod mechanics. As well as there's anarchy during golden ages in Rhye's global mod. That're just the artifacts to be updated, IMO.
Couple of further notices:
1. Dunno if intentionally, but forest-chopping gives 20 hammers and there's no tech like maths in Warlords and BtS which puts it to 30.
2. 1st GAge requires 2 GPeople, while in BtS - 1.
3. Anarchy during Golden Ages - none in BtS.
Proposals
Please add some seafood to Cyprus, Rhodes and Iceland, they are unworthy to settle otherwise.
1. Dunno if intentionally, but forest-chopping gives 20 hammers and there's no tech like maths in Warlords and BtS which puts it to 30.
2. 1st GAge requires 2 GPeople, while in BtS - 1.
3. Anarchy during Golden Ages - none in BtS.
Proposals
Please add some seafood to Cyprus, Rhodes and Iceland, they are unworthy to settle otherwise.
Napoli can get the Barley if its culture is stronger than Rome's in the tile. (As far as I can tell, the Papacy has no "home region".) But that's not easy to do.
JediClemente
Prince
Yeah, I know. But as you say, it's not easy.
I just don't like to see an important city like Naples/Napoli wasted like that. It would be better to just move the resource out of there (as it isn't even in Roma's fat cross).
Also as suggested before, I think there aren't enough seafood resources in the mediterranean. Nowadays they're almost depleted but we're talking 500-1800 here...
merijn_v1
Black Belt
1. It could be that he didn't do it in the real world. (like Tukogawa (or something) in vanilla RFC)
1. It is based on them. Even like the Konnik are based on the Immortals. If you want to create new inactive moves, it is very difficult, but if you give an existing unit a new art, it looks different but it only moves and attacks the same.
2. I think they have decided to give it that bonus. (but I'm not sure)
BurnEmDown
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,718
I guess the "sheep" icon is supposed to represent wool, much like the elephants represent ivory.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Correct. Wool is a luxury resource, reflecting the wealthy wool trade in the Middle Ages. Sheep as a food resource was never a major factor in Europe AFAIK.
BTW If we could find a good pic of a walrus to use as art that'd be much better than elephants in Iceland and Norway to represent ivory, wouldn't it?
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