RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

No probs. Exams are probably one of the (very few) times when RL needs to come first! ;)

Good luck with the exam!

Thanks!

Save attached. It's the SVN from before your last post with the changelog. Not sure there have been any updates since then - don't want to check as don't want to lose the game!

Checked your save
Actually I can hire a Swiss Pikeman Mercenary in Lombardy, on the very same turn I load it...
It's true that Genoa has way less mercs currently than it's UP would suggest (and way less than it should have), but I see no actual bug there

Btw, all East and Central European powers were collapsed by the Mongols?
Including Poland, Hungary, Byzantium and the Ottomans?

PS: AFAIK the recent updates don't break savegames
Also, even if the save won't load for you for some reason with the new revision, you can always switch back to the previously working one
You can check the number of your current revision in TortoiseSVN
 
Checked your save
Actually I can hire a Swiss Pikeman Mercenary in Lombardy, on the very same turn I load it...
It's true that Genoa has way less mercs currently than it's UP would suggest (and way less than it should have), but I see no actual bug there

Strange. Maybe it was just in my comp that there was the problem. I did ok without mercs, tho' I agree that Genoa should have a wider range and number of mercs - if anything the Genoese player should be able to survive purely with mercs and only have to build a very small number of units.

Btw, all East and Central European powers were collapsed by the Mongols?
Including Poland, Hungary, Byzantium and the Ottomans?

Yep. Hungary vassalised to Venice after the Mongols attacked them, but were still collapsed. By the time the Ottomans spawned, Byzantium only had three cities left, and the Mongols were all over the place so the Ottomans died pretty quickly too, they only lasted around 10 turns.

The Arabs also collapsed but respawned after Venice, IIRC, led a Crusade but became unstable. If you check the message log, the barbs took Damascus and Jerusalem on numerous occasions so the Arabs got a major hammering too. France had taken a bit of a battering too - when Genoa spawned they still hadn't taken Bordeaux or Toulouse, and Marseille had been razed by the barbs.

It's an Emperor level game, so it illustrates my comments about OP barbs that the AI can't handle in the east and struggles with in the west.
 
Yep, definitely my comp - I loaded the game and also had the Pikeman there, followed by the usual Condottieri. Not sure why it didn't work the first time, possibly a problem with the initial game load on my machine.
 
So, I was looking in the assets folder and wasn't able to find whether the stability penalty, of switching from peace to a state of war, was counted with the independents involved. Does anybody else know?
 
So, I was looking in the assets folser and wasn't able to find whether the stability penalty, of switching from peace to a state of war, was counted with the independents involved. Does anybody else know?

The getWarPeaceChange function only checks for major players
Independents don't count
 
Perhaps you could switch the UP of Venice and Genoa? Genoa generally has no more than 5 cities, which works well with Merchant Republic, whereas Venice as both human and AI always ends up with more than 5. In addition, Venice does more fighting and thus would have a greater need of mercenaries.

Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the UHV3 being first to build a colonial project. A more interesting UHV could be called "Lepanto" and be "control and assure that there are no Ottoman cities in the eastern Mediterranean islands (Cyprus, Rhodes, Malta). Of course this would require the Ottomans making an effort to settle or conquer those provinces, but imo something should be done to make the Ottomans more of a competitor navally like they were until Lepanto. Personally I think colonial projects should be the domain of the west-euro civs who established footholds in reality, but I also understand if you want to continue to stick to the UHV structure of "2 historical, 1 ahistorical but possible/alternate history".

Played as Bulgaria on Monarch, pretty easy game I thought. 1st UHV was easy, the Byzantine AI lost Hadrianopolis to barbs and put only 1 measly archer in Constantinopolis and Thessaloniki --> easy conquests and Byzantium collapses. Nobody challenges you for the land you need for the 1st UHV once Byzantium has collapsed--the only threat is the barbs that continue to spawn in the western Balkans and the Serb revolts (I hate this :lol: and stick by my point in my earlier post that the scripted revolts should not happen if you have good stability). Orthodox points are beyond easy if you keep the cities you conquered/built for the 1st UHV-- just build Orthodox buildings and spread the religion with missionaries, supplementing that count with the free faith points from the endless prophets coming from Constantinople/Tsarigrad. Defending Mongols was easy- built the city in NE Wallachia near the Black Sea that gets all the resources in the fat cross (not on the coast though) and stacked Guisarmiers and Arbalestiers in there with walls and a castle + Pressburg castle. Ottomans near Hadrianopolis/Odrin/Edirne were annoying but destroyed all their units with a stack of double-flanking promoted pistoliers (hilariously overpowered unit imo when used correctly, since with 12 strength + 3 movement + 1st strikes + base withdrawal chance + flanking I and II if you have barracks and stable they rarely ever die when attacking :lol: ). Suiciding bombards is also quite effective.

Now playing as Byzantium. I noticed right away that Apulia and Calabria are unstable despite their historic place first in the Western Empire before 500 AD and then in the Eastern Empire thanks to Belisarius, so maybe this could be changed. Same goes for the rest of Belisarius's conquests (Sicily, Sardinia, Tripolitania, Tunis/Ifriqiya). Speaking of Belisarius, perhaps he could start the game with the Byzantines in Constantinopolis as a Great General? He after all was quite instrumental in pushing back the Sassanids, protecting the Emperor, and conquering the western Mediterranean during his lifetime from 500-565AD.

Now onto my next point as Byzantium: the barbs (especially Sassanids)!
Defending the barb axes and spears in Greece is quite easy, of course. But the Sassanid barbs having lancers at that point of the game is brutal, even on Monarch! Sinope is only ever hit by one lancer at a time so is easily defensible by an archer and a spearman. Caesarea is also easy to defend with 2 starting archers and its location on a hill. But Aleppo...defending it turns into a constant drain on your production and a massive bloodbath since getting walls takes forever and it's on plains. I would literally replace a defender just in time to keep the city, only to see another of my troops killed the next turn. I never lost the city, but those battles were interesting (actually, you ironically managed to realistically recreate the Byzantine-Sassanid wars through this arduous process of bloodbaths followed by troop replenishment ad infinitum. I love a good challenge but lancers in 500AD are a little excessive and the art (west-euro-looking lancers in eastern Anatolia) looks a little strange. Perhaps they should be replaced with horse archers?

Also I love what you did with the "penalty" for pillaging the preplaced villages, but be aware that I have often used them as a goldmine for both actual gold and also experience for my starting troops.

Also, too bad about 3Miro :( Hopefully he can come back to CFC and the project soon, I always liked him a lot.
 
okay, wow, Bulgaria really depends on your luck.
On turn 5 2 barb horse archers appeared next to my city, killed 1 of the 2 archers, hurt the other one and on the next turn razed my city -> game over. And I thought 2 archers per city, this early in the game would be overkill -.-
but horse archers are the perfect anti-archer-unit at this stage in the game. and what do I start with? Archers, sourrounded by barbarian horse archers -.-

of course you can have great starts as well with Bulgaria, it's just that there some things that are simply beyond your controll at this point. mostly the byzantine plague, and the barbs.
if Constantinople is guarded by 1 tagmata + 2 archers + 1 spearmen you you won't conquer it, fine. restart or try anyway (and then restart), but the barbs?
As Bulgaria time is of the essence, but the barbs force you to be really timid...

edit: Hope your exam went well ;)
 
An interesting review, HockeySam! :)

Yea, IMHO giving a Great General (Belisarius or Narses) to Byzantium might express perfectly the unique "sophistication" of the mighty (Eastern) Roman Empire compared to the other nations/tribes... :thumbsup:
 
Now playing as Byzantium. I noticed right away that Apulia and Calabria are unstable despite their historic place first in the Western Empire before 500 AD and then in the Eastern Empire thanks to Belisarius, so maybe this could be changed. Same goes for the rest of Belisarius's conquests (Sicily, Sardinia, Tripolitania, Tunis/Ifriqiya).

I believe all those provinces you mentioned (plus Sicily and Malta, perhaps a couple more) are already contested in the SVN. I think they "degrade" later on, though.
 
okay, wow, Bulgaria really depends on your luck.
On turn 5 2 barb horse archers appeared next to my city, killed 1 of the 2 archers, hurt the other one and on the next turn razed my city -> game over. And I thought 2 archers per city, this early in the game would be overkill -.-
but horse archers are the perfect anti-archer-unit at this stage in the game. and what do I start with? Archers, sourrounded by barbarian horse archers -.-

of course you can have great starts as well with Bulgaria, it's just that there some things that are simply beyond your controll at this point. mostly the byzantine plague, and the barbs.
if Constantinople is guarded by 1 tagmata + 2 archers + 1 spearmen you you won't conquer it, fine. restart or try anyway (and then restart), but the barbs?
As Bulgaria time is of the essence, but the barbs force you to be really timid...

edit: Hope your exam went well ;)

Same here, I hope you did well!

Agreed with the point about Bulgaria, much is up to luck. I'm playing 1.1 atm though, so perhaps some changes have been made. Barbs are tough but you can usually hire some mercs to deal with the horse archers while your Konniks destroy Byzantium. Even if Constantinople is guarded by Tagmata + Spearman + 2 archers you can take it, all you need is 4-5 trebs to bombard the defenses and then suicide against the defenders (or just suicide right away if you are short on time). I'd much prefer if AI Byzantium could actually fight back by hiring some mercs to supplement their army, instead of cowering in their cities waiting to die :crazyeye: However I understand that they are rather overextended and due to the strength of Arabs + barbs they are weak. Actually, in a game my dad was playing he actually saw AI Bulgaria take Constantinople !!!

As Bulgaria, I always found Varna and Tarnovo. Preslav is a good starting location but imo the city doesn't reach its full potential when it has no water access and the fish are right there. Whenever I play, I'm looking for city locations that can grow to size 15 or higher despite the heavy unhealthiness penalties in RFCE. This usually means founding cities that are either on the coast (but not trash production, have some hills or resources nearby) or have plenty of food due to rivers. I know that the trade route and cottage growth penalties for manorialism and serfdom are large, but the combo of the feudal civics is one of the most powerful, if not overpowered in the game assuming you are a civ with many rivers (France, Hungary, Bulgaria, Byzantium, Kiev, Muscovy, Poland, etc). Civs such as England don't have that luxury, with few rivers and much moorland, so the the switch to the "pre-industrial revolution/cottage economy" civics is imperative asap. Good job replicating real history with that--more "progressive" civs like England, the Italian powers, and Germany will embrace the Reformation and the Protestant ethic and drop the feudal system, while "old school" civs like France and Muscovy should keep the feudal civics until they can access the bottommost row ;)

By the way I still feel bad for poor Kiev :( Of all of the civs their AI/bonus as an AI player definitely needs the most help. Sometimes they don't even make the Mongol spawn :( Not saying that the Mongols shouldn't beat up on them, but imo it should not be an automatic death-knell for them. It's nice if they survive so that Muscovy's 1st UHV can be challenging.

I believe all those provinces you mentioned (plus Sicily and Malta, perhaps a couple more) are already contested in the SVN. I think they "degrade" later on, though.
Yes I'm still playing 1.1. Where can I get the SVN? Never mind I found it!

As always, quite impressed. Cheers man :)
 
By the way I still feel bad for poor Kiev :( Of all of the civs their AI/bonus as an AI player definitely needs the most help. Sometimes they don't even make the Mongol spawn :( Not saying that the Mongols shouldn't beat up on them, but imo it should not be an automatic death-knell for them. It's nice if they survive so that Muscovy's 1st UHV can be challenging.

Surely if they survive Muscovy's first UHV gets much easier? The goal is to have no barb cities in Russian regions, so if Kiev is there that's fewer cities which will be Mongol at the start.
 
Oh nvm then. For some reason I thought the first Moscow UHV was to control those regions, not to clear the barbs. In that case it's better for the Mongols to control that whole area :lol:

Also, I saw something interesting in another thread- perhaps once Kiev is destroyed by the Mongols it could respawn as the Duchy of Novgorod (in Novgorod of course) to challenge Lithuania and Muscovy?

I haven't seen many dynamic respawns since I've only played 2-3 games of 1.1 and none have gone past the 1500s. However, I figured you could do the same thing as Rhye did in regular RFC with "old/ancient" civs respawning as newer kingdoms/states in the late game. For example:

-Kiev could become Novgorod as stated above
-Cordoba already becomes the Hafsids to take up N Africa, that's really cool!
-Byzantium could respawn as Greek Rebels in the late game if Ottoman stability is bad, or they could respawn as the Kingdom of Two Sicilies (Neapolis/Naples and Palermo).
-Bulgaria normally has decent continuity but if eliminated could respawn as the Balkan States.
-Burgundy respawning late game as Switzerland.
 
Also, I saw something interesting in another thread- perhaps once Kiev is destroyed by the Mongols it could respawn as the Duchy of Novgorod (in Novgorod of course) to challenge Lithuania and Muscovy?

I haven't seen many dynamic respawns since I've only played 2-3 games of 1.1 and none have gone past the 1500s. However, I figured you could do the same thing as Rhye did in regular RFC with "old/ancient" civs respawning as newer kingdoms/states in the late game. For example:

-Kiev could become Novgorod as stated above
-Cordoba already becomes the Hafsids to take up N Africa, that's really cool!
-Byzantium could respawn as Greek Rebels in the late game if Ottoman stability is bad, or they could respawn as the Kingdom of Two Sicilies (Neapolis/Naples and Palermo).
-Bulgaria normally has decent continuity but if eliminated could respawn as the Balkan States.
-Burgundy respawning late game as Switzerland.

You will be very surprised then ;)
 
Actually, in a game my dad was playing he actually saw AI Bulgaria take Constantinople !!!

Wow, your dad also plays RFCE!? :king:

Yes I'm still playing 1.1. Where can I get the SVN? Never mind I found it!

As always, quite impressed. Cheers man :)

Glad you like it!
Up for 1.2, hopefully it will really be "soon" this time ;)
 
An interesting review, HockeySam! :)

Yea, IMHO giving a Great General (Belisarius or Narses) to Byzantium might express perfectly the unique "sophistication" of the mighty (Eastern) Roman Empire compared to the other nations/tribes... :thumbsup:

Yeah, I'm thinking about adding a starting set of units for Byzantium in Italy, lead by Belisarius.
We can also have Narses as a GG in Byzantium at start

I believe all those provinces you mentioned (plus Sicily and Malta, perhaps a couple more) are already contested in the SVN. I think they "degrade" later on, though.

Indeed
Dalmatia, Verona, Lombardy, Tuscany, Liguria, Corsica, Sardninia and (Latium) are Contested provinces for Byzantium, up until the Venetian spawn
While Apulia, Calabria, Sicily and Malta start as Potentially stable provinces, and change to Contested around the Genoan spawn
 
Yeah, I'm thinking about adding a starting set of units for Byzantium in Italy, lead by Belisarius.
We can also have Narses as a GG in Byzantium at start

while definitely nice and historical: what would be the point? Gameplay-wise?
Will (southern) Italy be added to the 2nd UHV for Byzantium?
They'd slow down the research and wouldn't contribute much since getting troops from these cities "home" to where the barbs are attacking takes quite some time&effort.
 
okay, wow, Bulgaria really depends on your luck.
On turn 5 2 barb horse archers appeared next to my city, killed 1 of the 2 archers, hurt the other one and on the next turn razed my city -> game over. And I thought 2 archers per city, this early in the game would be overkill -.-
but horse archers are the perfect anti-archer-unit at this stage in the game. and what do I start with? Archers, sourrounded by barbarian horse archers -.-

of course you can have great starts as well with Bulgaria, it's just that there some things that are simply beyond your controll at this point. mostly the byzantine plague, and the barbs.
if Constantinople is guarded by 1 tagmata + 2 archers + 1 spearmen you you won't conquer it, fine. restart or try anyway (and then restart), but the barbs?
As Bulgaria time is of the essence, but the barbs force you to be really timid...

edit: Hope your exam went well ;)

Actually with Bulgaria you shouldn't grab for too much initially.
You start with 5 Konniks, use them wisely.
First conquer only Adrianople, then focus some Konniks on some defense, they are more then good enough against Horse Archers.
Wait for some siege units for the Byz capital, and only go for Thessalonici in the meantime if you have enough Konniks to spare

The ideal tactic doesn't include sacking Constantinople in the first very few turns, and that's intentional (only if you got a very lucky role of course, with basically defenseless Byzantium)
Constantinople is important for the faith goal, but you don't have to start popping out those great prophets right after the start
The first few GPs will come very easily anyway, if you focus your resources well in Constantinople.

PS: Will try my strategy again, with the latest version, just to be sure I'M not talking crap :)
 
well, you need some cities and there is a timeframe that you'll have to keep ;)

but the problem I was talking about isn't conquering cities, it's that your starting units are deceptive. You start knowing "Byzantium is weak right now, lets take 1-2 of their cities" and have some offensive units that Byzantium usually can't counter. Go Team Bulgaria.
At the same time you have 4 archers + 2 settlers, so either you send 1-2 archers along with your keshiks (to defend your newly conquered cities) or you think "okay, I better guard the cities my 2 settlers found against Byzantium/Barbs with these archers".

But either choice is wrong, since the horse archers just kill your archers.
You'd have to keep your Keshiks as city defense (negating their great strength of 40% withdrawal chance) to defend against the barbs. Or you don't found any cities at all at the beginning, conquer 1-3 of Byzantiums cities and then use your settlers only once you have produced some more military units.
Remember: all it takes for you to lose is barbs conquering (and usually razing) one of your cities while you're rushing to build your empire before ~900ad.

Buying Mercs is a great idea, but not possible until ~ turn 10 since you need a) some mercs actually willing to be recruited and b) enough culture in that province (usually only the one where your capitol is and Constantinople can reach this)

Sure, if you're lucky the barbarian horse archers go and kill the Byzantine units making it easier for you, but that's rare and even more luck-dependancy on your game.

If the barbs are meant to harass you and keep "things interesting" (as we've often discussed before I'm not that much a fan of barbs as you, but...) why not increase barb activity maybe 50-100 years after your start? that way you actually have a chance to try building up some defence.
 
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