3Miro
Deity
In RFC this was balanced by the stability hit from loosing a city. Stability in general needs reconsidering, however, at his point I don't think making the AI fully aware of stability is feasible (itis doable, just very complicated).
RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
In RFC this was balanced by the stability hit from loosing a city. Stability in general needs reconsidering, however, at his point I don't think making the AI fully aware of stability is feasible (itis doable, just very complicated).
Also, Defensive Pact so far works like Military Pact. When I attack someone, my bud Simeon always hops is.
Also I got the impression couple of times I was declared by vassals, which then dragged the master in the fray. In regular BtS vassals cannot declare war.
Also I got the impression couple of times I was declared by vassals, which then dragged the master in the fray. In regular BtS vassals cannot declare war.
3Miro
Deity
In RFC and RFCE vassals can declare war.
The "formula" for stability is in Assets\Python\Stability.py, that is the code for it, if you feel like going into it.
Thanx! I'll nag you more if getting lost
Finished UHV for Muscowy, the biggest issue is stability - Kievan Rus was regularly trying to spin off, and I couldn't lead even defensive wars without going down to unstable - I can't seem to find the civic "synergy" for over 10-turns warfare without going down the drain. Bulgars wiped out Byzantium in 744AD, only to fall into demise not full 2 centuries later. Barbarians razed Kiev twice. Germany managed to die 3 times, Austria - 2.
Also, Simeon, despite being Friendly (sufficient for him to accept, according to LeaderHeads.xml), during wartime refuses to become my vassal due to war, during peacetime - motivating he doesn't like me enough, which is never a correct answer. Please, recall this when you decide to reshuffle the AI behaviour.
Thanx, it was a very interesting game!
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Just finished an interesting game as England on Monarch. After getting the first UHV condition very easily, (It helped to have a defence alliance with France who protected Calais for me), I realised I wasn't going to out-tech everybody to the Industrial Revolution. So I decided to see how many colonies I could build. Looking at the tech tree I realised that once I got Arabic Knowledge I didn't have to go to Chemistry for better military. I went for the longbow UU instead. After that, it was just beelining thru Astronomy and Trading Companies. By the end in 1760 I built both trading companies and 10 colonies. A new record for me. Of course I could have built even more if the game ended in 1800 as it is supposed to do.
Some thoughts arise from this game though.
1. All you need for the 2nd. UHV is the trading companies and 1 colony. The former shouldn't count. It should be 3 colonies at least, I think.
2. Because I controlled Calais I had 3 Atlantic Access points. Too many really but not having one doesn't stop you building colonies anyway. You don't even need trading companies either AFAIK.
3. The AI is not interested in building trading companies or colonies. But they are very interested in Atlantic Access. If they can't get it by trade they'll try to destroy them in war. I had to keep a good supply of workboats and war galleons to prevent this.
4. Saving all your GPs for golden ages is a great way of speeding up colony production.
5. Other than the resource boost and the UHV there is absolutely nothing to gain from building colonies. Couldn't building one give you a good score boost (ie.50pts?) like building a wonder does? Some extra gold would be nice too. As you can see from the last screenshot the extra 500pts. would have been a game winner.
6. The Gold Coast and East Africa should be the earliest colonies you can build, if slaves are going to provide a production boost for other colonies. Brazil and East Indies can come later.
7. Louis XIV is a very good friend and ally who takes generousity to new heights.
(see screenshot below)
Some thoughts arise from this game though.
1. All you need for the 2nd. UHV is the trading companies and 1 colony. The former shouldn't count. It should be 3 colonies at least, I think.
2. Because I controlled Calais I had 3 Atlantic Access points. Too many really but not having one doesn't stop you building colonies anyway. You don't even need trading companies either AFAIK.
3. The AI is not interested in building trading companies or colonies. But they are very interested in Atlantic Access. If they can't get it by trade they'll try to destroy them in war. I had to keep a good supply of workboats and war galleons to prevent this.
4. Saving all your GPs for golden ages is a great way of speeding up colony production.
5. Other than the resource boost and the UHV there is absolutely nothing to gain from building colonies. Couldn't building one give you a good score boost (ie.50pts?) like building a wonder does? Some extra gold would be nice too. As you can see from the last screenshot the extra 500pts. would have been a game winner.
6. The Gold Coast and East Africa should be the earliest colonies you can build, if slaves are going to provide a production boost for other colonies. Brazil and East Indies can come later.
7. Louis XIV is a very good friend and ally who takes generousity to new heights.
(see screenshot below)
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
For the rest of you who haven't seen the art for my 10 colonies here it is. Very nice Sedna.
Have Played a few more Games now and found some stuff that could be worth noting-
1.In north eastern corner of Norway there are two Ivory resources (maybe to represent seal hunting?)
2.Saw was mentioned before but Cordoba seems way over powered militarily. Spain never got further south than Toledo in any game i played or just collapsed. Then Cordoba turtles and doesn't take any northern cities. Meanwhile historically, it was Al Andalus that collapsed. Maybe this could be created by lowering Andalusian stability. Portugal seems a little to powerful tech wise too.
3.Arabs seem tough to beat to take Jerusalem haven't seen or done it yet. I think this should be altered so Crusaders could succeed in a few games.
4.Turks seem a little under powered, haven't seen them take Constantinople yet, let alone take any Balkan city.
5.Austria seems to Turtle in its area to, Hungria collapsed and they let first barbs and then the genoans take those cities, plus shouldn't the Austrians get prague and have the upper hand on Hungary if they go to war? I don't know the history behind Austria's annexation of Hungary but i imagine they would have had the advantage.
6.Bulgaria and Kievan Rus seem to collapse a lot but i think that is accurate. Poland is also quite powerful, havent seen Germany or Russia beat them and if Moscow collapses Poland becomes enormous.
7. Moscow seems to fall apart a lot to but thats not as historical.
Thats what i found so far, hope its helpful. Great mod, haven't played a different civ mod since.
1.In north eastern corner of Norway there are two Ivory resources (maybe to represent seal hunting?)
2.Saw was mentioned before but Cordoba seems way over powered militarily. Spain never got further south than Toledo in any game i played or just collapsed. Then Cordoba turtles and doesn't take any northern cities. Meanwhile historically, it was Al Andalus that collapsed. Maybe this could be created by lowering Andalusian stability. Portugal seems a little to powerful tech wise too.
3.Arabs seem tough to beat to take Jerusalem haven't seen or done it yet. I think this should be altered so Crusaders could succeed in a few games.
4.Turks seem a little under powered, haven't seen them take Constantinople yet, let alone take any Balkan city.
5.Austria seems to Turtle in its area to, Hungria collapsed and they let first barbs and then the genoans take those cities, plus shouldn't the Austrians get prague and have the upper hand on Hungary if they go to war? I don't know the history behind Austria's annexation of Hungary but i imagine they would have had the advantage.
6.Bulgaria and Kievan Rus seem to collapse a lot but i think that is accurate. Poland is also quite powerful, havent seen Germany or Russia beat them and if Moscow collapses Poland becomes enormous.
7. Moscow seems to fall apart a lot to but thats not as historical.
Thats what i found so far, hope its helpful. Great mod, haven't played a different civ mod since.
Currently playing a game (as Portugal), where the French captured Jerusalem and held it long enough to sign peace with the Arabs. They've now held the city continuously from about 1250 until now (1514). In my experience the Crusaders (nearly always the French) capture Jerusalem multiple times but don't hold it very long most of the time. But, if a Crusade is timed just right and the Arabs are busy with the Seljuk invasions, the Crusaders can hold out for peace. Plus, the actual Crusader States didn't last long.
Kiev seems to have a problem of being either incredibly weak or incredibly powerful, which I don't think is intended. If they've advanced enough to mostly resist the Mongols, they tend to attack and overpower Moscow and be one of the most powerful civs. And that seems to be happening fairly frequently. If, on the other hand, they don't resist the Mongols well, most of their cities end up razed, and they collapse (which is historical, so it's not a big deal).
Also, the Ottomans nearly always convert to Orthodoxy instead of Islam. They should start with a few Islamic Missionaries to convert their capital and Byzantine cities which flip.
Finally, I think teh Polish UP is overpowered. Should Poland really be one of the tech leaders in every game? I understand Venice and Genoa, and England tends to be a tech powerhouse late game, the French and the Germans are if they succeed in uniting their territories, Portugal tends to be strong early but tail off as appropriate, but Poland was never a major leader in innovation. Yet they are always at or near the top of the tech race with complete consistency (more than can be said for anyone else, even Venice). I feel as if the Kievan UP may be more appropriate for Poland.
Kiev seems to have a problem of being either incredibly weak or incredibly powerful, which I don't think is intended. If they've advanced enough to mostly resist the Mongols, they tend to attack and overpower Moscow and be one of the most powerful civs. And that seems to be happening fairly frequently. If, on the other hand, they don't resist the Mongols well, most of their cities end up razed, and they collapse (which is historical, so it's not a big deal).
Also, the Ottomans nearly always convert to Orthodoxy instead of Islam. They should start with a few Islamic Missionaries to convert their capital and Byzantine cities which flip.
Finally, I think teh Polish UP is overpowered. Should Poland really be one of the tech leaders in every game? I understand Venice and Genoa, and England tends to be a tech powerhouse late game, the French and the Germans are if they succeed in uniting their territories, Portugal tends to be strong early but tail off as appropriate, but Poland was never a major leader in innovation. Yet they are always at or near the top of the tech race with complete consistency (more than can be said for anyone else, even Venice). I feel as if the Kievan UP may be more appropriate for Poland.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
First test result from the latest version. Thought I'd try Cordoba again as we've shifted the balance strongly to the Spanish. We certainly have done that alright! Getting the first UHV is still pretty easy. Got Cordoba to size 17 by 990AD. Meanwhile I've been at war with Spain almost continually, which is fairly historic.
My science output has been lousy though. Needing 120 turns to research the Soria UB at the start is ridiculous esp. as I get 4 buildings for free in Valencia on the flip. I think all cities should get at least a Madrassah and maybe a Barracks as well. Managed to build Cuenca and later Malaga and Almeria. Spent the rest of the time up to 1500 defending myself against the Spanish and the Portugese. Again. Very historic.
My slow tech rate compared to Spain, however, is not. What happened to the early science advantage for Cordoba? How can Spain be running longbowmen, pikes and bombards and nearly to colonies in the 1400s while Cordoba has just got Chivalry and is struggling to get Guilds? At very least, they should on a tech par in 1200AD with Spain beginning to get the upper hand after that.
I think we have gone too far in overcompensating Spain and crippling Cordoba. (see screenshot below). I don't mind the increased hostility. That's fine. But I have a couple of suggestions to rebalance Iberia.
1. Cordoba's starting cities to get a Soria or a Madrassah. And maybe a Barracks?
2. Cordoba to get an increased science rate for the first 100 turns only.
3. Maybe one or two Berber cavalry when Tangier flips for exploring and trying to take Marrakesh.
4. Spain to start with more defensive units to prevent being taken out too early. Still possible.
5. Cordoba's UHV to involve controlling over 50% of Iberia in 1500, not all of it.
My science output has been lousy though. Needing 120 turns to research the Soria UB at the start is ridiculous esp. as I get 4 buildings for free in Valencia on the flip. I think all cities should get at least a Madrassah and maybe a Barracks as well. Managed to build Cuenca and later Malaga and Almeria. Spent the rest of the time up to 1500 defending myself against the Spanish and the Portugese. Again. Very historic.
My slow tech rate compared to Spain, however, is not. What happened to the early science advantage for Cordoba? How can Spain be running longbowmen, pikes and bombards and nearly to colonies in the 1400s while Cordoba has just got Chivalry and is struggling to get Guilds? At very least, they should on a tech par in 1200AD with Spain beginning to get the upper hand after that.
I think we have gone too far in overcompensating Spain and crippling Cordoba. (see screenshot below). I don't mind the increased hostility. That's fine. But I have a couple of suggestions to rebalance Iberia.
1. Cordoba's starting cities to get a Soria or a Madrassah. And maybe a Barracks?
2. Cordoba to get an increased science rate for the first 100 turns only.
3. Maybe one or two Berber cavalry when Tangier flips for exploring and trying to take Marrakesh.
4. Spain to start with more defensive units to prevent being taken out too early. Still possible.
5. Cordoba's UHV to involve controlling over 50% of Iberia in 1500, not all of it.
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
This is a problem. The AI just isn't that competent at war, especially against the Cordoban UP (their troops heal faster so the normal AI attacks of a few units at a time is useless). In order to get the Spanish AI to actually take over some of Iberia, the Cordobans have to be pretty weak, and that makes it too easy for the human to get the Spanish UHVs.
We'd have to make a special case in the code to specifically increase the Cordoban tech rate at the start. I tried to make the early Muslim buildings give more of a boost than the early Christian ones, and then slow down the Muslim tech rate over all. Clearly that needs some adjusting.
Another possibility is to make Cordoba unstable. If they collapse most of the time as the AI, the Spanish will have a much easier time taking them over. After all, the caliphate collapsed into Taifas, and was only partially re-united later by the African rulers.
I've always been intrigued by the possibility of a UHV where the best strategy is to collapse. So if we moved the 1st UHV earlier or made it easier, then the human will over-expand to meet it and collapse. However, this is actually a good thing, because the lowered maintenance of just your capitol plus whatever you can re-conquer will allow you to to reach Scientific Method first (if you can fend off the Spanish/Portuguese).
Wessel V1
Emperor
If the Spanish UHV is too easy because Cordoba is much weaker, perhaps the UHV should include the conquest of the Netherlands. It wouldn't be very easy nor very hard, because it will require amphibious attacks, or a huge stack.
3Miro
Deity
It is possible to code different scientific modifiers that depend on the era. There are some modifiers in RFC (those are the same for all players, but we can change that). That would give us more "knobs" to turn to balance the game, however, it is kind of artificial.
Another solution would be to have some scientific building (Madrassah or something), that becomes available with the Arabic knowledge and is obsolete with Education. Arabs and Cordobans start with AK, so they can build the thing and get an early boost. By the time the Christians get to Arabic Knowledge, the Madrassah would be obsolete, thus the Europeans would not be able to build the thing and the Arabs' science would be effectively decreased.
Another solution would be to have some scientific building (Madrassah or something), that becomes available with the Arabic knowledge and is obsolete with Education. Arabs and Cordobans start with AK, so they can build the thing and get an early boost. By the time the Christians get to Arabic Knowledge, the Madrassah would be obsolete, thus the Europeans would not be able to build the thing and the Arabs' science would be effectively decreased.
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
I don't know to what extent is the Austrian UHV doable. I tried a game with them, and stopped it, due to...(what else) failure. The first condition is only doable when the barbs attack and take over Hungary, and in my game, after (how strange) collapsing Kiev, they took over Bulgaria. They also halved the Muscowans (and collapsed them). That's why the Polish always become so strong... 
Austrian UHV proposal (aka softening)
1) Control the Carpathian basin by conquest or vassalage at 1550
2) Have more territory than Germany at 1700 AD
3) Have 3 Def. Alliances at 1750 AD.
What do you think about that?
Austrian UHV proposal (aka softening)
1) Control the Carpathian basin by conquest or vassalage at 1550
2) Have more territory than Germany at 1700 AD
3) Have 3 Def. Alliances at 1750 AD.
What do you think about that?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I don't know to what extent is the Austrian UHV doable. I tried a game with them, and stopped it, due to...(what else) failure. The first condition is only doable when the barbs attack and take over Hungary, and in my game, after (how strange) collapsing Kiev, they took over Bulgaria. They also halved the Muscowans (and collapsed them). That's why the Polish always become so strong...
Austrian UHV proposal (aka softening)
1) Control the Carpathian basin by conquest or vassalage at 1550
2) Have more territory than Germany at 1700 AD
3) Have 3 Def. Alliances at 1750 AD.
What do you think about that?
Austria is a really tough one. I don't see how you can control the whole Carpathian basin when you're surrounded by Germans, Poles, Venetians, Bulgars and Hungarians. Sometimes even Byzantines. The only time I ever tried it, I got wiped out by the "Quadruple Alliance". It was like being a rat in a trap with no escape.
Mind you, seeing how the barbs wipe out some of the others on occasion, maybe I should have formed a strategic alliance with Genghis and the boys.
Played as Burgundy; epic instability after 5 cities. Whilst I don't mind succumbing to history, a few times playing them and blitzing three cities always lead to high instability (-20). It's somewhat anoying to have cities randomly go independant without some warning, or a pop up window ahead of time. And when its a snow ball effect to help worsen the stability - its just rude of them. 
Played as frankia; Burgundy naturally declares war early, in my first game I was able to counter their declaration with an all out bloodbath at Djion, capturing it and destroying their civ. With them out of the way, taking historical France is pretty easy, the player can found a city along the Rhine, and the germans will only declare war to get that river city (predictable and defensible). Major industrial output, yet always seam to lack technologically, ultimately Poland, and the Italian city states lead the tech race.
Spain gets selected for the crusades consistenty. Spain suffered only one collapse early in the game, but for hundreds of turns have kept at war with the Cordobans, yet they never seamed to take the Independant Barcelona. (probably too pre-ocuppied with Cordobans).
Are the crusades given only to AI, or based on diplomatic ties to the Pope?
Playing as the Arabians currently, a quick blitz of the nearest cities solidifies your position. Using the rinse and repeat approach with the Byzantine cities, the Arabian player can easily make their way to Constantinople. After many turns, I was able to control all of the Byzantine cities, but as I started spreading my territory along the N.African coast, the expansion stability declined sharply to 30/-20/-19. For whatever the three sets of numbers mean.
In this game, Spain keeps a good race against Cordoba, with neither collapsing. France never seams to wipe out Burgundy - And neither take Marsielle from the independants. Kiev, in all games has collapsed early.
--
I've declared war a few times on the independants, stealing a city or two - but I've only recently noticed that after many turns I don't go back to peace with them. ?. Also, the independants inherit far too many units from collapsed civs, with the above combined, they are anoying peasants.
It wouldn't be too bad to add pop up windows on new historical events to advise players new to the mod; Particularly are barbarian invasions. What I presume are the Seljuk horseman in Eastern Antiolia, it wouldn't be bad to make a window announcing several turns of eastern invaders, particularly becuase the Arabians cannot see past the map world.
Played as frankia; Burgundy naturally declares war early, in my first game I was able to counter their declaration with an all out bloodbath at Djion, capturing it and destroying their civ. With them out of the way, taking historical France is pretty easy, the player can found a city along the Rhine, and the germans will only declare war to get that river city (predictable and defensible). Major industrial output, yet always seam to lack technologically, ultimately Poland, and the Italian city states lead the tech race.
Spain gets selected for the crusades consistenty. Spain suffered only one collapse early in the game, but for hundreds of turns have kept at war with the Cordobans, yet they never seamed to take the Independant Barcelona. (probably too pre-ocuppied with Cordobans).
Are the crusades given only to AI, or based on diplomatic ties to the Pope?
Playing as the Arabians currently, a quick blitz of the nearest cities solidifies your position. Using the rinse and repeat approach with the Byzantine cities, the Arabian player can easily make their way to Constantinople. After many turns, I was able to control all of the Byzantine cities, but as I started spreading my territory along the N.African coast, the expansion stability declined sharply to 30/-20/-19. For whatever the three sets of numbers mean.
In this game, Spain keeps a good race against Cordoba, with neither collapsing. France never seams to wipe out Burgundy - And neither take Marsielle from the independants. Kiev, in all games has collapsed early.
--
I've declared war a few times on the independants, stealing a city or two - but I've only recently noticed that after many turns I don't go back to peace with them. ?. Also, the independants inherit far too many units from collapsed civs, with the above combined, they are anoying peasants.
It wouldn't be too bad to add pop up windows on new historical events to advise players new to the mod; Particularly are barbarian invasions. What I presume are the Seljuk horseman in Eastern Antiolia, it wouldn't be bad to make a window announcing several turns of eastern invaders, particularly becuase the Arabians cannot see past the map world.
Austria is a really tough one. I don't see how you can control the whole Carpathian basin when you're surrounded by Germans, Poles, Venetians, Bulgars and Hungarians. Sometimes even Byzantines. The only time I ever tried it, I got wiped out by the "Quadruple Alliance". It was like being a rat in a trap with no escape.
Mind you, seeing how the barbs wipe out some of the others on occasion, maybe I should have formed a strategic alliance with Genghis and the boys.
Isn't "Carpathian basin" actually really small? I seem to remember looking at the guide map and beign surprised at how easy it looked. You really only need to attack the Hungarians and sometimes the Venetians.
FuzzyRabbitLord
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2009
- Messages
- 29
Britain game: no real problems game went well after some development I took the tech lead and later the score lead, was completing my goals. Invaded France and took all of northern france, no problems, then game crashed (I believe this may be due to my computer though)
Some things I noticed where that Austria never made Vienna (this has happened in all the games Ive played), and the turks stayed in eastern turkey never taking out the byzantines, also Poland as many have been saying was an unlikely tech leader
France Game: Quickly expanded and vasselized burgundy, this was a problem because I could not complete my historic goal due to that I couldn't war them, to solve this I went into the editor and made them independent, but there should be a way to get out of that trap. I also conquered the holy lands from the crusade and collapsed Arabia, and made a small 8 city outpost of Jerusalom, al aquaba, ramalah, Sur, and 3 cities in the desert, also conquered northern spain (barcelona from independants and used culture to move in and build Barca) and vasselized spain and portugal as well as hungary, expanded into Netherlands and hambourg area, wich I later gave up to the dutch.
Problems: even at the height of my expansion I was still running 80% research (lots of money due to corporations mercenaries e.t.c.) and for some reason i was still taking an average of 20 something turns to research stuff, with all my cities maxed out and all the researching buildings built + monestary of cluny. I was being out teched when my everything in my empire was working for tech, and on top of that no-one not even my vassels would trade with me. I became slightly non-competitive in the tech race. It took me 56 turns for liberalism even with 90% tech funding and all possible tech buildings in all cities and an extremely strong economy. I think it should be a little less especially since many smaller civs were researching things 20 times faster and its not like my % was low.
Austria again did not make Vienna, Byzantium kept western turkey, poland was a tech leader, Protestantism has a minimal effect on the game, there needs to be some "great schismz' code implemented
Some things I noticed where that Austria never made Vienna (this has happened in all the games Ive played), and the turks stayed in eastern turkey never taking out the byzantines, also Poland as many have been saying was an unlikely tech leader
France Game: Quickly expanded and vasselized burgundy, this was a problem because I could not complete my historic goal due to that I couldn't war them, to solve this I went into the editor and made them independent, but there should be a way to get out of that trap. I also conquered the holy lands from the crusade and collapsed Arabia, and made a small 8 city outpost of Jerusalom, al aquaba, ramalah, Sur, and 3 cities in the desert, also conquered northern spain (barcelona from independants and used culture to move in and build Barca) and vasselized spain and portugal as well as hungary, expanded into Netherlands and hambourg area, wich I later gave up to the dutch.
Problems: even at the height of my expansion I was still running 80% research (lots of money due to corporations mercenaries e.t.c.) and for some reason i was still taking an average of 20 something turns to research stuff, with all my cities maxed out and all the researching buildings built + monestary of cluny. I was being out teched when my everything in my empire was working for tech, and on top of that no-one not even my vassels would trade with me. I became slightly non-competitive in the tech race. It took me 56 turns for liberalism even with 90% tech funding and all possible tech buildings in all cities and an extremely strong economy. I think it should be a little less especially since many smaller civs were researching things 20 times faster and its not like my % was low.
Austria again did not make Vienna, Byzantium kept western turkey, poland was a tech leader, Protestantism has a minimal effect on the game, there needs to be some "great schismz' code implemented
"Wien" is Vienna.
Just discovered while playing Venice that the accent grave doesn't seem to work. When editing the city name, it indicates that the accent should be there, but it doesn't render in-game. So cities like Corfù, Mistrà and others are missing their final letter and render as "Corf", "Mistr", etc. This may be something exclusive to PCs, since I know a lot of the development team are using Macs.
Just discovered while playing Venice that the accent grave doesn't seem to work. When editing the city name, it indicates that the accent should be there, but it doesn't render in-game. So cities like Corfù, Mistrà and others are missing their final letter and render as "Corf", "Mistr", etc. This may be something exclusive to PCs, since I know a lot of the development team are using Macs.
