RFC:I Civics

kairob · Sep 9, 2009

So people like Liberty, Equality and Wealth so far? Also the reason I like Expansion as one is that some countries have considered it their duty to control as much land as possible. As Cecil Rhodes said "To think of these stars that you see overhead at night, these vast worlds which we can never reach. I would annex the planets if I could; I often think of that. It makes me sad to see them so clear and yet so far."

Maybe it could be swapped for power? What I am looking for here is a nationhood replacement to allow conscription.

So how do people feel about; Order, Wealth, Power, Liberty, Equality.
Order would represent countries that did not want to change or move with the time and could give cultural, a free spy and/or stability bonuses at the cost of reduced research.

Wealth would represent the accumilation of wealth like in the Spanish Empire or modern day America. Could give extra gold from markets, banks, grocers and supermarkets and possibly a production/happiness boost with factories.

Power would be the attainment of political, economic or military power and has been the aim of many countries, most notably the British Empire, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. This could allow drafting and give extra espionage.

Liberty represents freedom of the individual and represents France during the revolution and most of the western world today. It should probably give similar/equal benefits as free speach used to.

Equality represents Socialist and Communist and as such its benefits would need to be useful both in communist states and in European capitalist states. I was thinking something connected to specialists here in conjunction with 100% culture, because if both Liberty and Equality have +100% culture then they would be competing against each other on the merit of +2 commerce/town or extras from specialists which I think would be close...

Panopticon · Sep 9, 2009

kairob said:
So people like Liberty, Equality and Wealth so far? Also the reason I like Expansion as one is that some countries have considered it their duty to control as much land as possible. As Cecil Rhodes said "To think of these stars that you see overhead at night, these vast worlds which we can never reach. I would annex the planets if I could; I often think of that. It makes me sad to see them so clear and yet so far."

Maybe it could be swapped for power? What I am looking for here is a nationhood replacement to allow conscription.

So how do people feel about; Order, Wealth, Power, Liberty, Equality.
Order would represent countries that did not want to change or move with the time and could give cultural, a free spy and/or stability bonuses at the cost of reduced research.

Wealth would represent the accumilation of wealth like in the Spanish Empire or modern day America. Could give extra gold from markets, banks, grocers and supermarkets and possibly a production/happiness boost with factories.

Power would be the attainment of political, economic or military power and has been the aim of many countries, most notably the British Empire, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. This could allow drafting and give extra espionage.

Liberty represents freedom of the individual and represents France during the revolution and most of the western world today. It should probably give similar/equal benefits as free speach used to.

Equality represents Socialist and Communist and as such its benefits would need to be useful both in communist states and in European capitalist states. I was thinking something connected to specialists here in conjunction with 100% culture, because if both Liberty and Equality have +100% culture then they would be competing against each other on the merit of +2 commerce/town or extras from specialists which I think would be close...

I think this is good. We can refine the benefits once the mod is up and running. The main issue is in distinguishing Wealth from Liberty. They sound like they give substantially similar bonuses at the moment. Order should indeed give a stability bonus. I think either Power or Glory is a good description of what you are describing in the third civic, and it should be unmodified Nationalism. Having Equality strengthen a Specialist/Great People strategy in the late game is a good idea.

kairob · Sep 9, 2009

So far we have spare civics in the following categories; Government, Labour, Religion and Expansion.

For government I will use Theocracy if (and only if) no good alternative presents itself as I would prefer not to have it what with religious influence on politics being much reduced in this period.

Following the discussion about Labour civics and Emancipation maybe it could be split into 'Labour Market' and a second alternative (possibly Unions) but I am not too convinced on this.

We are also one Economic system short and I thought Corporatism might work (note this does not necessarily refer to Corporate Businesses). It has been used many times and is often overlooked but I think could fit quite nicely as historically it has been used by many different societies (monarchies, democracies, fascist and communist states, etc...).

Mekajiki · Sep 9, 2009

The national values we have ended up being very very similar to the values civics of The History of the Three Kingdoms Mod. I think we should look on that for ideas for some of the effects of these civics.

Cethegus · Sep 9, 2009

If there is an unused Expansion slot, how about using Federalism there? I always felt its lacking unfulfilling in regular RFC. And couldn't Labor civics be renamed Society civics while we're at it? They're one a nd the same, after all.

Panopticon · Sep 9, 2009

kairob said:
We are also one Economic system short and I thought Corporatism might work (note this does not necessarily refer to Corporate Businesses). It has been used many times and is often overlooked but I think could fit quite nicely as historically it has been used by many different societies (monarchies, democracies, fascist and communist states, etc...).

Corporatism is an interesting choice and it should allow active government interventions in the economy, like how State Property should. But I'm not sure what you mean by one system short, so maybe you could post a list of the civics you will provisionally include in the mod.

Cethegus · Sep 9, 2009

Mercantilism, Free Market, State Property and Welfare State will probably be in the final set of civics. If Environmentalism is to be placed elsewhere, Corporativism will be a good choice as the final entry.

kairob · Sep 9, 2009

Code:

[B]Government		National Values		Social Structure	Economic		Religous		Expansion[/B]
[I]Theocracy[/I]		Order			Serfdom			[I]Corporatism	[/I]	Organised Religion	Subjugation	
Hereditary Rule		Wealth			Slavery			Mercantilism		Theocracy		Viceroyality
Representation		Liberty			Caste System		Free Market					Resettlement
Police State		Power			[I]Labour Market[/I]		State Property		Atheism			[I]Federalism[/I]
Universal Suffrage	Equality		[I]Unions[/I]			Mixed Economy		Secularism		Commonwealth

Most of the gaps I was talking about have just closed up but here is the list as it stands now and I have put some in italics civics that I am not sure of and would be open to suggestions for replacements.

fireclaw722 · Sep 9, 2009

I think each type of government sould have two civics,

Examples

Democracy
-Democratic for small civs
-Republic for big civs

Monarchy
-Absolute monarchy for early
-Constitutional monarchy for later monarchies w/o the instability of changing to democracy or for knowing democracy.

Communism
-Socialism and Communism and maybe even a ecomomic civic that gives a little boost to stability, a commerce or something while running them combined.

Welcome to any comments, but I thing that this might be helpful with government civics.

Edit: Got another idea from Steb(the post below) that Commuism should have a religious civic of that adds one :mad:

and the person doesn't get a state religion, It should as well give a small(not large enough to make some civs completely communist but enough to make the already Communist civs adopt all three. Socialism should get less of a bonus to those than truly Communism

Steb · Sep 9, 2009

Let's do a chart à la political compass for religious civics.

Spoiler :

(I assume atheism is the forced irreligion of some states like North Korea and especially communist ones. Right?)

Observations, anyone? There's nothing in the top-left corner. However, it is possible for countries to have a state religion without being extremist, and being tolerant to other faiths. Historically, many nations have accepted other religions without separating the church and the state, and some modern countries still have a state religion without being secular (England, Norway, Greece, Argentina, some Arab states and many more).

Civ/RFC had Pacifism, Panopticon suggested Pluralism; I propose either that last one, or Tolerance. Effects: no instability from non-state religions, more happiness/culture/GPP? The issue would be to make sure it isn't exactly the same as Secularism.

kairob · Sep 10, 2009

I think each type of government sould have two civics,

Examples

Democracy
-Democratic for small civs
-Republic for big civs

Monarchy
-Absolute monarchy for early
-Constitutional monarchy for later monarchies w/o the instability of changing to democracy or for knowing democracy.

Communism
-Socialism and Communism and maybe even a ecomomic civic that gives a little boost to stability, a commerce or something while running them combined.

Welcome to any comments, but I thing that this might be helpful with government civics.

We would need to many government civics for this to work. 2 democracy ones, 2 communist, 2 monarchies, 2 fascist, etc... The differences between different states are better shown through combinations of civics than of hundreds of government choices. Think of the government section as a more of a 'how do we choose the next leader' category.

However adding a constitutional monarchy might work.

@ Steb - Tolerance/Pluralism is an interesting choice and as I see no other candidates I reckon we should go for it.

kairob · Sep 10, 2009

Ok here is another idea. Instead of Labour Market and Unions replacing Emancipation how about keeping Emancipation and adding Indoctrination. It made little sense as a Labour civic but it might make more sense as a Social structure. We could have a propaganda tech unlocking it and it would represent a state where people were told what to think by state controlled media like PRC, USSR and the Third Reich. Should give a Stability Bonus and reduce War Weariness and possibly increase espionage.

Cethegus · Sep 10, 2009

kairob said:
Ok here is another idea. Instead of Labour Market and Unions replacing Emancipation how about keeping Emancipation and adding Indoctrination. It made little sense as a Labour civic but it might make more sense as a Social structure. We could have a propaganda tech unlocking it and it would represent a state where people were told what to think by state controlled media like PRC, USSR and the Third Reich. Should give a Stability Bonus and reduce War Weariness and possibly increase espionage.

A combination between Caste System and Emancipation? Oh how I've longed for one.

I don't think it's such a bad idea. I know I'm in favor of adding it in Civ, but the question is what would the effects be without it being a mixture of old civics. +10% :hammers:

in all cities bonus (one option) would be just a pale copy of Caste System's +1 :hammers:

for Workshops bonus, as would Unlimited Spy portion be as well. What if it would provide +10% espionage defense in all cities? Sure, the game code would have to be tweaked to include that but it's going to be fiddled with anyway.

kairob · Sep 10, 2009

How about +1 stability per city and unlimited spies?

Cethegus · Sep 10, 2009

Sure, but wouldn't the stability part go along better with Federalism? Unlimited Spies I agree with wholeheartedly.

Cethegus · Sep 11, 2009

Speaking of Propaganda, I found just the button for it. The righternmost one on the lower row.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4090

fireclaw722 · Sep 13, 2009

kairob said:
We would need to many government civics for this to work. 2 democracy ones, 2 communist, 2 monarchies, 2 fascist, etc... The differences between different states are better shown through combinations of civics than of hundreds of government choices. Think of the government section as a more of a 'how do we choose the next leader' category.

However adding a constitutional monarchy might work.

What I figured was that there needed to be at least 2 monarchial(for lack of a better word) and 2 communist civics.

Monarchy because of some of the monarchis still today.

Communism because Socialist and communism are close but not the same and I also think that a government and an ecinomic/social civic would be great for communism because of the communist reforms.

BurnEmDown · Sep 14, 2009

Most monarchs today are only there for iconic purposes and don't have any real influence on the country (at least politically-wise).
I think you are forgetting the abundance of democratic nations in the world today, perhaps 1 Monarch, 1 Dictatorship, 2 Democratic government civic is better (and there's still room for 1 more).
First of all communism and socialism aren't government civic, they are economic civic. A communist country (for example USSR) has Dictatorship as it's government and Socialism as it's economic civic, while another nation could be Democratic Socialist (there are a few countries like that in the world).

kairob · Sep 14, 2009

Burn has explained it fine but to repeat and rephrase what he put. Monarchies of today have little to do with government so we don't need a government civic for them. The government civic is about who is in charge and monarchs of today are not in charge but are just powerless figureheads.

Communism is an economic system and you can have lots of different communist governments but having state Property with Police State (USSR) or State Property with Representation or Universal Suffrage (Democratic Socialism).

fireclaw722 · Sep 14, 2009

That would be right though I'd still like that extra monarchy civic giving:

+1 happiness for stationed units(Like in HR)
no negitive stability points for knowing Democracy
+5% cultural bonus in top 5(or six) cities
better for larger empires(on stability)
Rush with gold
+10%(or should it be 5%) science in top 5 cities(Like in Rep.)
It should also give a negitive stability for running the Whipper(for lack for a better word) civic and running the Socialist/Communist civic
-1 or 2 angry from city for pop.
-or-
pop. still works if more angry than happy

Though this makes it very powerful, it combines US, Rep., and HR to create a more(for lack of a better usage of words) realistic experiance.

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