Rhye's Catapult

[Eddiit]

Just played a game as Rome and I think the city and unit flipping sytem may need some work.

I decided this game that I wanted to hold onto Spain no matter what happened. I went ahead with the game and built an army of Praetorians to take on the Spaniards when they arrived.

Things went well at first and I managed to take Madrid. Not long after my Praetorians started flipping. One after another. This continued for about 7 turns and included most if not all of the reinforcements I sent in. By the time the flipping was done Spain had more Praetorians than I did.

I find this to be a problem. The flipping needs to happen once and once only. Praetorians shouldnt be flipping considering theyre loyal Roman soldiers. As a minor annoyance I lost about 4 workers to flipping as well.

Is there something that can be done about that Rhye? Great update by the way! Game keeps getting better.

 

[Eddiit]

this is already being done. As it wasn't working yet, I didn't include it in this version.

Thats great to hear. I think that will wind up adding more depth to the mod overall.

 

[Rhye]

Just played a game as Rome and I think the city and unit flipping sytem may need some work.

I decided this game that I wanted to hold onto Spain no matter what happened. I went ahead with the game and built an army of Praetorians to take on the Spaniards when they arrived.

Things went well at first and I managed to take Madrid. Not long after my Praetorians started flipping. One after another. This continued for about 7 turns and included most if not all of the reinforcements I sent in. By the time the flipping was done Spain had more Praetorians than I did.

I find this to be a problem. The flipping needs to happen once and once only. Praetorians shouldnt be flipping considering theyre loyal Roman soldiers. As a minor annoyance I lost about 4 workers to flipping as well.

Is there something that can be done about that Rhye? Great update by the way! Game keeps getting better.

No, this is absolutely necessary.

It used to be just once, as you say.
But some of you already found how to exploit that: keep a stack of units out of the range of the flips to avoid losing them, and attack later.

 

[Blasphemous]

The solution for flipping should be clear - units in range are much likelier to flip, but all of your units may just flip, making refusing to leave a city much more dangerous as the Praetorian guarding Roma may just be a Spanish loyalist and suddenly you have an internal threat as well as external ones (flipped units inside your territory should stay where they were except if they were in a city, in which case they would be placed right outside that city). The more units you have, the more will flip, no matter where they are. This is rather historical, I would think. It would definately increase the chance for a Fall of Rome.

Some thoughts about making the AI more aggressive...

The type of wars Civ has are rather atypical historically. The AI usually only attacks when it has a significant power edge over a rival and conquers to cripple or eliminate it. Certainly that happened a lot in history, but there were also far more small skirmishes and smaller, shorter wars. Not everything was WW2 or Napoleon.

Some suggestions (if its at all possible):

Make the AI more aggressive overall.

Remove or lessen the 10 turn embargo on negotiating with an enemy after war is declared. Maybe make it 5 turns.

Currently I think the AI is more likely to go to war with weaker neighbors. Maybe boost dramatically the likelihood of going to war with a nation of comparable strength.

If we want to get really complicated, tweak the AI to be more likely to capture cities, and more likely to declare peace when/if a city is captured. Hopefully to created more tactical wars where small bits of territory are taken and then consolidated instead of every war being a war of elimination.

I imagine editing the AI is much harder than other aspects of the mod, maybe it can't be done. Maybe it wouldn't be wise to do. Just some thoughts.

I find with Civ we have to remind ourselves again and again what kind of scale we're playing on. A skirmish is simply nonexistant on this scale. The game should only reflect major conflicts. That said, your suggestions are good - major conflicts aren't necessarily World War I/II every single time. A major conflict can be a tactical conquest of one are (=city) and that should be reflected in-game.

 

[OzzyKP]

what will this cause?

My hope was it would allow shorter wars. So no one is necessarily locked into a war for 10 turns. This would of course need to be done in conjunction with other factors encouraging the AI to actually want to end the war.

 

[Rhye]

The solution for flipping should be clear - units in range are much likelier to flip, but all of your units may just flip, making refusing to leave a city much more dangerous as the Praetorian guarding Roma may just be a Spanish loyalist and suddenly you have an internal threat as well as external ones (flipped units inside your territory should stay where they were except if they were in a city, in which case they would be placed right outside that city). The more units you have, the more will flip, no matter where they are. This is rather historical, I would think. It would definately increase the chance for a Fall of Rome.

Units flip when they're moved withing the flip region. If you keep your stack at homem, it won't flip.

 

[Blasphemous]

Units flip when they're moved withing the flip region. If you keep your stack at homem, it won't flip.

Well, that's still a bit unfair and a bit unrealistic. It would make more sense for everything to happen in a "short" period of time (a good few years actually, one turn) - Spaniards start to talk of revolt, quickly those on the outskirts of the empire begin to organize in settling bands and militia, and their kin in Roman service hear of what's going on, some of them organizing revolts and leading a small slice of the Roman legions to help their bretheren reclaim their homeland. The model currently in use would in real life be something along the lines of: Spaniards in the peripheral area of Iberia organize in settling bands and militia and convince incoming Roman forces to join them in their bid for nationhood. Plausible, but not as realistic as the "all at once and everywhere" model.

I played a little test game on the new version, playing as China and intending to switch to England. I noticed I never got a popup for Greece (the rest were fine so far). The barbarian uprising around the beginning of the ADs is just devastating if you aren't prepared for it. It took me somewhat by surprise and I doubt I can win this war (I saved and quit with no intention of continuing that game). But I guess it's my fault for not preparing myself.

EDIT: Oh, and I noticed a couple of odd things in the way the UP descriptions are written. I can't recall exactly. Send me the texts and I'll polish them up a little.

 

[Rhye]

here's the list

EGY	Pharaoh		Hereditary Rule and Slavery enabled since the beginning
IND	Spirituality	No anarchy
CHI	Myriads		1.5X Melee and Gunpowder units train speed
GRE	Philosophy	+200% Great People birth rate until the end of the Middle Ages
ROM	Infrastructure	Roads allow 4X movement within borders
PER	Satrapy		No Maintenance Costs from Distance to Palace
JAP	Honor		All military land units have a bonus in city defending
SPA	Discovery	Naval units are 2 movement points faster
ARA	Faith		State religion spreads with temples and cathedrals to conquered cities
FRA	Entente		Non-European civilizations have a friendlier attitude
ENG	Royal Navy	2X Naval units train speed
GER	Blitzkrieg	Gunpowder units can use enemy roads
RUS	Winter		Enemy units get damage every turn in Russia
MAL	Wealth		+1 trade in plots with 1 trade
INC	Terraces	Mountains produce 2 food
MON	Horde		Pillaging costs no movement points
AZT	Sacrifice	Military units can enslave defeated enemy units
AME	American Dream	Population migrates from other civilizations

 

[Rhye]

about the new civs popups, as i've written in the changelog, you won't get civ popups for civs too close (French won't get any German popup for instance)

 

[Blasphemous]

Then how come I got Japan's popup when I could actually see their starting units directly near my Eastern border, but I didn't get Greece's popup, whom I met a long time later?

 

[Blasphemous]

Edited UP descriptions [notes in square brackets]

I wrote them in a rather "full" format rather than with minimal sentances, I think we have the space for this and it looks better. It's still not necessary.

EGY Pharaoh Hereditary Rule and Slavery are available to Egypt at start
IND Spirituality India experiences no anarchy in revolutions
CHI Myriads Chinese cities train Melee and Gunpowder units at 1.5x
GRE Philosophy Greek cities receive +200% Great People birth rate until the end of the Middle Ages
ROM Infrastructure Roman units receive fourfold movement on roads within Roman territory
PER Satrapy Persia has no Maintenance Costs for Distance from Palace
JAP Honor All Japanese military land units receive the City Garrison I promotion [correct?]
SPA Discovery All Spanish naval units receive +2 movement points
ARA Faith Arabia's state religion spreads with temples and cathedrals to conquered cities [I'm not sure about this, how exactly does it work?]
FRA Entente Non-European civilizations are friendlier towards France
ENG Royal Navy English cities train naval units at double speed
GER Blitzkrieg All German Gunpowder units receive the Commando promotion [I still think this is a bad choice]
RUS Winter Enemy units in Russian territory take damage every turn
MAL Wealth +1 trade in plots with 1 trade worked by Mali cities
INC Terraces Mountains produce 2 food for Incan cities
MON Horde Pillaging costs no movement points to Mongol units
AZT Sacrifice Aztec military units may enslave defeated enemy units
AME American Dream Population migrates from other civilizations to American cities

 

[Barak]

A bug with arabia. When I conquer cities instead of a temple and cathedral, I get a bank and a supermarket! In just the furst few turns of teh game as well!

One reason for this MAY be the fact that i have not yet chosen a religion. I chose my civics first, which took 2 turns, and I noticed that Jerusalem and Sanaa each got a bank and supermarket.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I'm having a bit of trouble here. I kind of, uh, suck. I always feel like I'm behind. If I don't make a bunch of settlers, I fall way behind in cities. If I don't make a bunch of workers, my cities become unhappy and unhealthy. If I make cities I run out of money, unless I have the workers building cottages. And all the while I need to have enough military units to fight off the constant barbie attacks.

Anyone got a strategy guide, or willing to help me with one? I like to start with China, so that might be the best.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I've found a couple of bugs, I think.

A tiny one is that when you switch Civs, the game no longer prompts you at the end of a turn. you can get it back by clicking on the option in the menu off, then on again, but it's a bit annoying.

More importantly, immigration for the Americans seems to be very buggy. When it hit 1640, I got a lot of popup messages each turn saying:

"immigration at 16"
"insertion at X" repeated several times.



At any rate, here's the history of my game up to 1645. I decided to play as the Egyptians, on Viceroy, so I wouldn't suck.

The Greeks started off hot, razing Hattusas and Ninevah, and capturing Babel and Ur. The Indians founded their two religions. The Persians went to the coast, around the Greeks, and captured Tyre and Jerusalem. Around 0 AD, the Barbarians destroyed China (!!). Around 350, the barbarians swept south from Central Asia and took out the eastern Persian cities, and the Indians. By 600, they'd captured Carthage off of me as Egypt, and completely destroyed Persia and Greece - the middle east was barren. By 700, the Arabs had appeared, and been driven back to half of the Arabian peninsula by the barbarians, while Rome had been destroyed as well.

In 1100, I left Egypt the most powerful state, and decided to join the Malinese.The next few hundred years progressed with little surprise. The French moved into Italy, the Russians seemed to lag behind. The Mongols founded a few cities, but the Barbarians, given that they owned China, kept capturing Mongol cities.

In 1580, the first civ-civ war occurred, when Isabella declared war on my Malinese to capture our North African cities.

European colonization was actually going somewhat correctly. The English had founded Boston and Praetoria, and the Spanish, Havana, all in the right place. As Mali, I was gearing up to colonize Argentina. A weird bug in the Replay seems to have Portland being founded three turns in a row, though it was nowhere on the map. Asia, meanwhile, was a no man's land. The barbarians had an empire from Delhi to Pagan, Hanoi, and Angkor, southern China, and Seoul.

So yeah - right now, on Viceroy level, this mod is primarily about playing against barbarians.

 

[Blasphemous]

I'm having a bit of trouble here. I kind of, uh, suck. I always feel like I'm behind. If I don't make a bunch of settlers, I fall way behind in cities. If I don't make a bunch of workers, my cities become unhappy and unhealthy. If I make cities I run out of money, unless I have the workers building cottages. And all the while I need to have enough military units to fight off the constant barbie attacks.

Anyone got a strategy guide, or willing to help me with one? I like to start with China, so that might be the best.

China isn't necessarily one of the easier civs to play (after a certain point).
I'd suggest the following, which I haven't tried yet but will soon:
Start by spreading out a little. Make it your first priority to spread until you have about four cities (place them all very well, and remember the game's recommendations are usually good) and make sure they all have some infrastructure and culture. Also make sure each city has one defender or two. Once you have four or five cities start to work on culture, military, and trade. Get at least two archers in each city, walls as soon as you can, and some offensive units scattered between your cities for counterattacks. Oh and make sure to research Calendar early on, you need it badly for many of the resources in your area. Make contact with other civs (have a scout set to explore and sign Open Borders with India and then Persia and Greece and you can get contact very far to the west rather early on) and then trade as much as you can with them to stay ahead. When the barbarians start coming divert as many resources as possible to defending your cities and counterattacking to keep your cities in your control. Make sure you have barracks in all of your cities at this point and have cities under attack produce defenders while the other cities produce counterattackers. Use promotions smartly to give your defenders good city defense and give your conterattackers bonuses against the kind of enemy you're fighting. Specialize: have some of your counterattackers good against mounted barbarians and some good against melee barbs. Speaking of melee units, try and take advantage of China's Unique Power - they build melee and gunpowder units at 1.5x speed. Get the technology to allow you to take advantage of this with spears and swords early on.
All that just off the top of my head as conclusions of my failed attempt at China from yesterday. Good luck!

 

[Arkaeyn]

I decided to run a test where I started a game as the Americans, then watched the replay, once at the low difficulty level, once at the high difficulty level.

At Viceroy level, it took about 10 minutes to run to 1600. I discovered why when I looked at the map - barbarians had overrun the entirety of Eurasia and Africa, except one Japanese city in North Korea. Only America, Inca, Aztecs, England, and Japan had survived.

At Emperor level, it took about an hour. Every single civilization survived, and the earlier the civ's start date, the better shape they were in. Virtually the entire world was colonized, from Spanish Argentina, to Russian Cuba, Japanese Australia, English South Africa, Egyptian Madagascar, and Chinese Indonesia.

Slight differences there.

 

[Rhye]

Very interesting comments here.
Nobody had tried the differences between the levels, now I know there's something to adjust.
I think that the most important factor is the difference of unit cost between the levels. With settlers costing more to the AI, there are less cities and the odds of collapsing after barbs are greater


About the American UU, I forgot the debug popups on. But it should work correctly: if you're America you will see your cities with a part of foreign population

 

[HypnosTene]

I've found a couple of bugs, I think.
A tiny one is that when you switch Civs, the game no longer prompts you at the end of a turn. you can get it back by clicking on the option in the menu off, then on again, but it's a bit annoying.

I played a test game yesterday, and in addition to this bug, I noticed that the 'quick moves' setting doesn't carry on when you switch.

As for the game contents, I played on Monarch, first as Greece, then switched to Japan. I quit around 1600 ad. Some reflections:

1. Initial setting adjustments. I've found it strange that the Hettites, which were one of the dominating powers around the time Greece starts (which, accidentally, is much to early btw), are only represented by one city with a single warrior, while, at the same time, Jerulasem, which was never in its history a major power in the region (most of the time the entive Levant area was pretty much a battefield between Egypt, and, depending on the period, the Hettites or Assyria). I'd like to see that changed, ideally Jerusalem replaced by another Phoenician city (incomparably greater importance)

2. The second point is related, I guess. Both Greece and Persia ended up with Judaism as their state religion, which carried all the way to 1600 ad. I'd suggest a tweaking of religion spread rates, particulaly increasing that of christiany. Alternatively, create another religion - orthodox christianity perhaps - instead of judaism (which, in reality, wasn't/isn't one to spread outside of the jewish societies).

3. Good news: all civs survived. But I'd name some problems. The Romans, even before the barbs arrived, only founded one city outside of italy. There was never a fall of Rome, they just stayed on the peninsula, eventually loosing one city to the French (which apparently changed its name to Aix-en-Provence.. wouldn't Marseilles be the most obvious choice on that square -> Aix-e-P is a small city, while Marseilles is the 2nd largest in France, also much mroe important historically, dating back to Greek colonisation). Greece continued to me a major power (and no thanks to my start with them, it was quite horrible). Russia remained weak (and founded St.Petersburg somewhere in the region of Saransk). India became a superpower, along with China

4. I am mostly a marathon player, and the speed was way too fast for me. It was like 'only 15 turns to tech? yay, I must be doing great' all the time. I'd love to be able to play the game on slower speed and actually be able to feel the ages passing by, instead of suddenly noticing 'oh! it's 250ad' (the date christianity was founded in my game, something I found rather funny).

EDIT: oh yes, I forgot about the most important thing, the reason which made me quit the game. It's slow as hell. Turn delay after 1000 AD became too much of a bother

 

[HÄI]

I noticed something which I'm not sure if it's a standard Civ feature or one of this mod: barbarians defend tribal villages. The ones where you get techs and money &c. when entering. It was a bit funny, because the village was right next to my border, and they had a 8-unit army fortified on it, an army which could've easily conquered my border city. They stood still there for over a thousand years, until my cultural borders extended to the village, after which they attacked. The behavior was very illogical, as they could've defended the village with just one axeman and razed my city with all the others.

 

[The Great Apple]

I noticed something which I'm not sure if it's a standard Civ feature or one of this mod: barbarians defend tribal villages.

AFAIK that's standard Civ.