Rhye's Catapult

[Barak]

Running the new version now. Egypt founded judaism in 1040BC. China is expanding south first (more realistic).

I like that Mesopotamia gets 6 cities, but it seems to be hemming in Egypt's expansion. Only Thebes has been founded, yet they have 2 settlers sitting in the capital. Greece is begining to expand into Asia Minor.

 

[Rhye]

Oh, and I saw a Chinese warrior getting into Europe by BC 2000, and thus meeting Greece

where did it pass?

 

[Rhye]

Rhye, I love the way you "direct" the 2nd and 3rd city of Rome
The 4th city was in all 3 tests Antium, in the Pireneus of Spain.
Is that OK with you?

I just set an area. AI choses its place within it. I haven't decided that it should be in the Pirenei

 

[Rhye]

How about giving a galley to Liz at start?
So that she could settle Ireland fast...

she should already have it

 

[Rhye]

Game.AIPlay <number of turns> should make the AI play against itself for the set number of turns, with no human intervention needed (it spawns you a lion on the ice). Alternative there is a very small SDK hack you can do to produce the same results (I had a bit of trouble with the console...)

EDIT: I can't seem to get Game.AIPlay to work on my machine however...

can you tell me the SDK hack?

 

[Rhye]

Now the map has all: France, Spain - where they should be
But now London is in far north, thus only 2 cities for England.

I'm interested in this game. Please check their techs periodically, and try to help them if they need so that we'll see if they trigger the broader coordinates. But save the game before doing it. I'm also interested in the global balancement without interference

 

[The Great Apple]

can you tell me the SDK hack?

Fistly, I'm sure this is not the best way of doing this, as it should be called at the start of every turn, instead of on every update, but I couldn't find a function to hand that got called at the start of every turn, so I tagged it in this one... shouldn't really have any bad effects. It also isn't configurable in any way. You could make it so, but I just recompile if I want to change it.

In CvGame.ccp, function CvGame::update()
I have this code at the end of the function

if (getGameTurn() % 25 == 0)
{
	setAIAutoPlay(0);
}
else
{
	setAIAutoPlay(1);
}

This will set the AI playing in 25 turn stints. Obviously change the 25 to get longer/shorter periods. If you just want it to go through the entire game you can just get rid of the if/else statement and just leave setAIAutoPlay(1).

NOTE: This does have the disadvange that it leaves whatever Civ you were out of the game. If you have room, you could create a special one specifically for testing I supose...

EDIT: I also have a python logger that keeps track of turn numbers on the interface, and outputs turn by turn data on all the civs in a custom log file.

EDIT2: I've also been trying (not very hard, admittedly) to find a way of getting it to reset the game after each test run, but no luck so far. You might be able to call the regenerate map function when the game ends, although I haven't had the time to test it.

 

[V. Soma]

Below I give data of the demographics and science of the 3 test games as AVERAGE.
Date is AD 1000 in all three (v026)

First, about the meaning of the numbers (see chart) in short:

Cities: Well, yes the number of cities
TilesTotal: Total number of tiles worked (size of cities added+number of cities)
Sci comm.: commerce spent on science (F2)
Sci %: The % of commerce spent on science (F2)
Sci 100%: This would be the commerce spent on science at 100% - it shows the science potential
Sci/tile: This shows the would be average full science for a worked tile

Now come the F9 demographic values:
Goods: the total production produced in a turn (hammers)
Goods/tile: the average production value for one worked tile
Crop: total amount of food pruduced each turn on worked tiles
Crop/tile: the avergae value of food pruduced each turn on one worked tile
Approval: happy pop / (happy + unhappy pop) * 100
HAPPY: integer value of (Approval-50)/5 to express quality of Approval: 0 or minus means no growth potential in total
Life: healthy pop / (healthy + unhealthy pop) * 100
HEALTH: integer value of (Life-50)/5 to express quality of Life: 0 or minus means no growth potential in total

If either HAPPY or HEALTH is 0 or negative - then the civ in total is not growing,
especially if Crop/pop is also below 2

Reports on civs:

China:
The strongest civ. Almost double of potential science than the average! Production is also thriving.
But China needs city buildings to keep up its growing, or settlers to expand.

India:
Also a big guy, but especially in science. Economy is not strong, and the civ is fully grown as of now.
It needs inner quality development and expansion.

Egypt:
However old this civ is, it is nowhere as big as the Asian powers.
Science and production are below average!
And however much food is growing, health is poor and this further hinders Egypt.
(I suggest giving back the short-distance cities and allowing more cites along the Nile)

Japan:
If we see the per tiles values, we see that Tokugawa is the ideal average man (statistically).
Well, so, everything is OK for Japan&#8230; and it is an achievement, since it is a rather old civ.

Mongolia:
Well, live here is pretty harsh and undeveloped: see goods and science.
There is growing potential, though, and if better land can be found or created within the borders,
Then catching up is not imposibble.

Greece:
Alex has a lot of cities and a big population, but closer look at his nation does
not say he should be that optimistic: science is low, health is stagnating.
He has the strong present in the area, but what about the future?
Military might be a solution, and Alex likes that&#8230;

Rome:
It seems Rome is the European counterpart of Japan.
What was said in case of Japan is true for Caesar&#8217;s nation, too: a good average situation,
Reached in a ca. 1500 years. The only and significant difference is in population:
Rome has only nearly half of that of Japan! Still, prospects are good for this civ.

Persia:
We can compare it to Rome, as they have the same number of cities and tiles:
What we find is that Cyrus is exceptionally poor! Only half size in science?
Uhh, that doesn&#8217;t sound good, and though other factors are OK, still, Persia is not glorious&#8230;

Arabia:
A rich country with a weak industry. Food is also something of a question.
One chance for Saladin is to be peaceful and getting a living based on the sea&#8230;
There is a chance that this civ can make it&#8230;

Germany:
Surprisingly strong. Just see how much population this civ has! And only in 1000 years!
As we can see it by the happy indicator, this swift growth made it to the top now,
but it does not matter, Germany has the industry to develop cities. Science is lacking though...
Question: how will the other young Europeans catch up to this? Will they have the time to do this at all?

The new Europeans: France, Spain, England, Russia

At this point, not much can be said about them.
They all have big growing potential and lands probably yet unworked. Lots of potentials, possibly.
But not much land is given to France, Spain&#8230;
&#8230;will they be able to compete with Germany, Russia (Cathy has land), Greece and Rome?

well, that's it

 

[V. Soma]

I'm interested in this game. Please check their techs periodically, and try to help them if they need so that we'll see if they trigger the broader coordinates. But save the game before doing it. I'm also interested in the global balancement without interference

I have the AD 1000 save.

I will play it till 1500, make a save, and then give them Astrology all...
Is that OK?

 

[Rhye]

Fistly, I'm sure this is not the best way of doing this, as it should be called at the start of every turn, instead of on every update, but I couldn't find a function to hand that got called at the start of every turn, so I tagged it in this one... shouldn't really have any bad effects. It also isn't configurable in any way. You could make it so, but I just recompile if I want to change it.

In CvGame.ccp, function CvGame::update()
I have this code at the end of the function

if (getGameTurn() % 25 == 0)
{
	setAIAutoPlay(0);
}
else
{
	setAIAutoPlay(1);
}

This will set the AI playing in 25 turn stints. Obviously change the 25 to get longer/shorter periods. If you just want it to go through the entire game you can just get rid of the if/else statement and just leave setAIAutoPlay(1).

NOTE: This does have the disadvange that it leaves whatever Civ you were out of the game. If you have room, you could create a special one specifically for testing I supose...

EDIT: I also have a python logger that keeps track of turn numbers on the interface, and outputs turn by turn data on all the civs in a custom log file.

EDIT2: I've also been trying (not very hard, admittedly) to find a way of getting it to reset the game after each test run, but no luck so far. You might be able to call the regenerate map function when the game ends, although I haven't had the time to test it.

thank you! This could be a way to do what Lachlan said (advanced starts). Worth a try, no?

 

[Rhye]

I have the AD 1000 save.

I will play it till 1500, make a save, and then give them Astrology all...
Is that OK?

yes, ok. Thank you for the table too.
It will be hard to balance things. Very hard.

 

[V. Soma]

Well, Apple, that sounds... Great!

 

[V. Soma]

yes, ok. Thank you for the table too.
It will be hard to balance things. Very hard.

I hope the table gives some info... table and reports are finished now - for AD 1000, that is

I will carry on the save you mentioned and will do another table at AD 1500 for that.

 

[V. Soma]

Rhye, here is that test-3-game pushed forward to 1500:

See table and civ-list files attached.

In short:

in the 50 turns btw 1000-1500,
civs that grew:

Russia and Persia significanty by settlers,
China by getting Seoul and settling,
Japan by one city on the continent.

NO NEW CITY for
England, France, Spain, Greece and India, Egypt.

Checking the graph differences are marked:

BIG ONES:
China, India, Japan,
Greece, Germany

LOSERS:
Egypt, Mongolia

The state of the Europeans:

Germany is overwhelming.
England and Spain is kind of OK, but they would need new land...
France is hindered, no matter how big Paris is...
Russia has hope as Cathy has land to grow on.

Arabia is OK, middle ground.

Mali is new civ now, as Aztec, too.

EDIT:
I would like to mention that Germany has the Great Library and
Greece has both the Colossus and Lighthouse wonders

-

Now I save this file and give all civs Astronomy...

 

[V. Soma]

Colonization in test 3 of 026 (Baron level, btw)
Astronomy and Optics are given to every civ in 1500:

1650:

India has colony in South Africa

Arabia has colony in Madagascar

1675:

Japan has city in the Gobi desert, Middle-Asia

1700.

Spain is first to have a colony in South America!

1760.

Japan has city founded in Australia

Arabia settles eastern shore of Africa

1810

Greece has a city on Java, I guess (definitely a big island in Indonesia)

Japanese has a city in the very north end of Siberia, at the ice block

1830

World is strange:

Egypt has city on the East Cost, North-America
Mongolia attacked Egypt, Thebe is captured...


1838:

new homelands?

India has now 3 cities in South Africa,
Japan has 2 in Australia...

1850:

Rome has a city in Argentina

1864

Arabia has city in Scandinavia

China has city in South America (inside)

France has city in North America (New England)

India settled New Zealand

No USA again???

test ended in 1880

 

[V. Soma]

I end test 3 in 1880, 150 turns before end.

Here's is the table and civ/tech list of 1880 (attached)

It is striking to see how a giant China is...

Germany and Japan seems to be in the next tier...
Maybe India is here, being better than the rest...

Russia and Mongolia are growing in strength,
England has a fantastic science tied to a weak industry - with 2 cities!
Greece did not make it big, but strong middle,
not much better than Persia.

France and Spain has the overall size similar to that of Mali.
Yet I say that they do no bad at all with their 3 and 4 cities.

Egypt is lost, Aztecs are poor.

-

Rhye, can you give me what is the handicap for what civ?
And that what multiplier it means in beaker, hammer?
Then I could have more comparable data...

 

[Vishaing]

I think we might be able to help England out by making a small change to the map. Mainly by moving England and Ireland up and to the left 1 tile, this will prevent France's culture from extending to England, I think, as I'm pretty sure the only reason it does so is because the tiles are currently withn the two tile city radius of the city they found in North france. This should let England get the three cities they need on the main island and, more importantly, get London where they need it.

Also, I think the reason that it seems England doesn't seem to have any galleys is because when they are 'born' they imediately set their galleys to explore and then settle their land. What this does is, since it takes a few turns to settle the whole island their Galleys can get a good deal away from the island and the computer then ignores them thinking they're 'too far away to bring back' I noticed on a game where England started in Ireland that they built a brand new galley to bring their settlers to the main island. They also built two cities right next to each other and since Ireland has little food resources their cities didn't grow very large, so production itself took forever.

A Map change in general that might help out the Europeans is providing more fish type food resources, and food in general. I remember in Rhye's of Civ there were two fish resources for Ireland cities, and these might help if England still manages to get pushed to Ireland. This could also help, 'encourage' the AIs to settle in certain places, much like what was done with civ 3 Rhye's.

 

[V. Soma]

Is Egypt set on Emperor (if I play on Baron)? I can't see her, only her...

EDIT:

As far as I see from the openeing turns,
poor Egypt has the same turns for Hunting with same cost,
so she is Emperor by my guess... That definitely hurts her a lot...

 

[V. Soma]

Do I understand it right that
China as "emperor" needs 130% spent on science to equal the "baron" Russia's 100%?

So China's spending of say 260 is equal to Russia's 200 and "vassal" France's 180?

 

[V. Soma]

Well, I tried to check things in the game and followed China making an archer:

1. turn: 19 hammers
2. turn: 6 hammers
and archer is completed

Civpedia says that archer costs exactly 25 hammers

Isn't this 25 the 100%???
Shouldn't this archer cost China more, say 25 * 1,3 = 33?

EDIT:
I find the same in case of India: Asoka gets archer for 25 hammers...
(and he is very good at moving his tiles )

EDIT 2:
I thought maybe Germany will have it different, but no, he makes a settler for 100 (base value)


Rhye, are you sure the handicaps are working properly?