Rhye's Catapult

[Eddiit]

I played a few hours more on the England game. The new war system works well, and I don't find the wars last too long either.
I have noticed one problem though - England has little chance to build the English national wonders. England should have 4-6 cities on the British Isles, and later on some colonies (which I have found hard to profitably settle and manage in good time), and yet the Globe Theatre and the Oxford University each require 8 of a building (Theater and University respectively, of course). This means if you don't really focus on doing so, there's little chance you can get the wonders you historically should have in the right time.
Now, it may be my own problem and not the mod's, but I do get the feeling that as England I have very much to achieve and not quite enough time to achieve it. It took me quite a while to stabilize my economy without leaving the British Isles, while catching up on tech (and then maintaining a world lead), and I only found the time and resources to start colonizing and building up an army now, around the 1600's I believe. Also, France ended up my close friend (even though I still want their land) and it will take a while before I can betray them.
Perhaps England needs to start with a couple of offensive units loaded in som Galleys (in addition to the empty Galleys already supplied)? England and France should basically be at war non-stop, starting somewhere in the middle ages, until the industrial era.
As to why I didn't colonize earlier, I have no idea if something should change, but I get the feeling I was just too caught up in building up good cities with a lot of culture and science.
Have the other testers been seeing a good, strong, colonial England?

I disagree about the wonders. Who cares if england gets its traditional wonders. Remember, this isnt a historical simulation. All the talk about making wonders easier IMHOP is a very bad idea. Wonders appear fine as is.

About France and ENgland beeing in a constant state of war I disagree again. England should have a claim over normandy and thats it. That should lead to quite a few wars as ENgland tries to take Normandy and France tries to take it back.

I do agree that theres no time to colonize but until we can have more civs around at any given moment lengthening time periods is a bad idea. Once Warlords introduces more civs then we can lengthen all eras. Especially the age of colonisation.

Any hints at all about congress Rhye?

 

[OzzyKP]

The Egyptians also need a boost. That and I think the slavery civic option needs to be changed. SLavery is just so lousy as an option.

I think a good UP for them instead of the civic bonus would be a wonder building bonus. Especially since wonders seem to so rarely be built in this game for some reason. Give Egypt a +50% bonus for building wonders, and maybe something else.

 

[Arkaeyn]

We should bear in mind that the civ's "powers" are not in a vacuum, they exist in conjunction with the geography and UUs. so Egypt's power might appear to be weak on paper, however, in-game Egypt is still powerful. So why help them?

 

[Eddiit]

I think a good UP for them instead of the civic bonus would be a wonder building bonus. Especially since wonders seem to so rarely be built in this game for some reason. Give Egypt a +50% bonus for building wonders, and maybe something else.

Yeah I had mentioned earlier that they should get a 25% bonus though I havent found that wonders arent being built. They just get built at ahistorical times which is a-okay with me.

 

[Eddiit]

We should bear in mind that the civ's "powers" are not in a vacuum, they exist in conjunction with the geography and UUs. so Egypt's power might appear to be weak on paper, however, in-game Egypt is still powerful. So why help them?

Egypt is only powerful because they have first crack at africa. Once warlords is released and one or more african civs come into play we'll see a much weaker egypt.

 

[dh_epic]

By congresses, do you mean post-war meetings between multiple nations? E.G.: the congress of Vienna?

 

[SilverKnight]

I've noticed that China has very odd "optimal" city locations, ones that seem to avoid the sea resources. First I'll check to see that I have Fishing, before it is a problem.

Yes, even with Fishing, China's city spots are in the same place each time: two to the west of Beijing (where I refuse to build, useless), and one in ALL of southeastern China. For the first time, I mostly ignored the recommendations and built two cities on China's east coast, plus Hanoi, and another one inland south-southwest of Beijing. The coastal cities are of decent size and produce a lot in and , so I don't see why China would want to ignore the coast.

Managed to keep a nice chariot army on hand and could replenish it when needed against the barbs; I felt in control the whole time. Small army throughout, just enough to defend with, yet I had economic troubles the entire game. In fact, my research was pushed to 0% AND I was still running -5 gpt with 0 gold! Had to disband a few units, but was still running under! Had the Pyramids (and The Oracle, I'd tried for both fairly late in the hopes that someone would beat me to it and I'd get some cash, no luck) and Representation, so research was decent, but I was ALWAYS -gpt! Got so bored with it I quit.

Buddhism had popped up in Beijing and was spread to all of my cities (half missionaries, half natural), and Persia ended up founding Confucianism (spread to one of my cities).

Wars included (don't remember all, or instigator):
Greece/Rome
Greece/Persia (Persia captured Byzantion, don't remember if name changed)

Also, Japan apparently declared war on me, yet I never saw a diplomacy window. Only noticed when their galley started destroying my fishing nets.

Conclusion: China's UP is useless if I can't afford even a SMALL army, let alone a large one! I've had bigger maintenance costs with smaller cities, and I even used the cheapest civics I could, so I don't know what went wrong. I was far behind in tech later on, yet 2nd in score, which seems right. China has been historically powerful, militarily and otherwise, even if not on the cutting edge.

Have the other testers been seeing a good, strong, colonial England?

Hmm... Think I'll give England a shot and go for it myself.

SilverKnight

 

[cece84]

hey rhye!

if you need only a programmer i studied it for years... (i0m doing computer science engineering).

i know very well java, have a good level on c, c++, assembler. i can also do something in basic (not difficult lang) and unix shell scripting.

the problem is that i never programmed in phyton (i gave him a look and don't seem too difficult, i must try...).. but the true problem is that i never modded CIV 4 or CIV 3 so i don't know the main libraries and interfaces that game uses... (but i would be happy to give a hand!)

 

[Arkaeyn]

Yes, even with Fishing, China's city spots are in the same place each time: two to the west of Beijing (where I refuse to build, useless), and one in ALL of southeastern China. For the first time, I mostly ignored the recommendations and built two cities on China's east coast, plus Hanoi, and another one inland south-southwest of Beijing. The coastal cities are of decent size and produce a lot in and , so I don't see why China would want to ignore the coast.

Managed to keep a nice chariot army on hand and could replenish it when needed against the barbs; I felt in control the whole time. Small army throughout, just enough to defend with, yet I had economic troubles the entire game. In fact, my research was pushed to 0% AND I was still running -5 gpt with 0 gold! Had to disband a few units, but was still running under! Had the Pyramids (and The Oracle, I'd tried for both fairly late in the hopes that someone would beat me to it and I'd get some cash, no luck) and Representation, so research was decent, but I was ALWAYS -gpt! Got so bored with it I quit.

Buddhism had popped up in Beijing and was spread to all of my cities (half missionaries, half natural), and Persia ended up founding Confucianism (spread to one of my cities).

Wars included (don't remember all, or instigator):
Greece/Rome
Greece/Persia (Persia captured Byzantion, don't remember if name changed)

Also, Japan apparently declared war on me, yet I never saw a diplomacy window. Only noticed when their galley started destroying my fishing nets.

Conclusion: China's UP is useless if I can't afford even a SMALL army, let alone a large one! I've had bigger maintenance costs with smaller cities, and I even used the cheapest civics I could, so I don't know what went wrong. I was far behind in tech later on, yet 2nd in score, which seems right. China has been historically powerful, militarily and otherwise, even if not on the cutting edge.

Hmm... Think I'll give England a shot and go for it myself.

SilverKnight

My best game with China I expanded a lot slower, and got religion at the start instead of archery. My city plots were:

Move Beijing a square to the right, so it's on the coast. Makes sense.

Hangzhou, one square inland, north of the stone. Usually I build this one on the coast, but the game recommended it be inland, and I went with the game.

Macau, to the right of the southern river. This one I got early to get at the bronze.

Luoyang, in the center of China, on the forested hills (which apparently give a slight bonus to cities). Luoyang can be a superpowered city, I've noticed.

Dalian, one square to the left of the river west of Korea. It never got me far, because the Japanese and the Mongols came after it. I also captured Seoul, but Japanese culture prevented it from being very useful.

The money issue is HUGE. You basically have to play China to save money. Your first worker should get resources, and your second one build towns. Get the techs you need at the start, then go for Code of Laws. I never come anywhere near founding a religion, which would help a lot.

I also tend to use a more defensive military. I put two axemen on the border with Tibet so the swordsmen get slaughtered. I surround Beijing with Spearmen. Two on the hill with the iron, one on the hill between Beijing and Karakorum, one on Beijing's horses, and one on the forested hill to the northeast of Beijing. Then a minimum of units in the other cities (which turned into a bad idea when the Spanish came knocking).

Also, the Mongol flipzone including Beijing is genius-level deviltry, Rhye.


Until the Mongols came along, I was running a good second or third behind the dominant Persians. I built my military a little too much, with Caste System and Vassalage and that ruined my banks. Still, it was a good run.

Historically, China should be at the front of the tech race, actually, until about 1400. Though exactly why they fell behind in real history is something of a mystery, I can understand why this mod would have them behind.

 

[Rhye]

Also, the Mongol flipzone including Beijing is genius-level deviltry, Rhye.

It's a genius-level deviltry because it doesn't flip, being the capital, but other cities in that row do.

 

[Rhye]

By congresses, do you mean post-war meetings between multiple nations? E.G.: the congress of Vienna?

Yes, that's the meaning. Every civ asks for a city, and the other civs invited to the congress vote yes or no.
The problem comes when the human player has to choose

[continues]

hey rhye!

if you need only a programmer i studied it for years... (i0m doing computer science engineering).

i know very well java, have a good level on c, c++, assembler. i can also do something in basic (not difficult lang) and unix shell scripting.

the problem is that i never programmed in phyton (i gave him a look and don't seem too difficult, i must try...).. but the true problem is that i never modded CIV 4 or CIV 3 so i don't know the main libraries and interfaces that game uses... (but i would be happy to give a hand!)

....
A nice interface would be better, but I don't know the graphic libraries enough.
So, for now I'll just make it a popup.
If someone wants to improve it later...

 

[Eddiit]

Yes, that's the meaning. Every civ asks for a city, and the other civs invited to the congress vote yes or no.
The problem comes when the human player has to choose

[continues]



....
A nice interface would be better, but I don't know the graphic libraries enough.
So, for now I'll just make it a popup.
If someone wants to improve it later...

So instead of flipping cities will be voted on? COuld you elaborate?

 

[Lachlan]

Cool ! Not automatic flip ^^

Chic ! I see myself to ask a town whermy pop is more than 50 % ...

I'm Rome and a foreign city has 50 % Romans 33 % Greeks and 17 % German ...

I get the city That's it ?

 

[Rhye]

no, it's not correct.

Flip will still happen.

But since a certain year in the renaissance congresses will be done periodically to exchange cities with other civs approval.
Some wrong decisions may lead to wars with the new AI wars system

 

[Barak]

I have never tried playing as England. I have however won games as France and Spain where I was limited by geography. Europe is crowded as we know, which forces the civs to colonize the new world and Africa. This is already a known entity.

Among the British Isles, there is room to build 4-5 cities, they would just be very close together. Considering that I won a cultural victory as France with only 4 cities in the traditional French home territory, I would think that doing so as England should be possible. Granted I moved Paris one square west and placed a new city on the Mediterranean coast in the 16th century (on the aluminum square).

In regards to China, I have NEVER played a game straight through with them. In fact, I find each of the original 3 civs are too handicapped. Twice I started as China, played till about 400AD, only to find my treasury empty, my lands undeveloped, and the barbarians numerous (granted this was from several versions ago).

Sounds like my next game will be start as China then switch to England

 

[Barak]

no, it's not correct.

Flip will still happen.

But since a certain year in the renaissance congresses will be done periodically to exchange cities with other civs approval.
Some wrong decisions may lead to wars with the new AI wars system

This sounds like a very cool idea

 

[NateDawgNY]

Love the new war system Rhye! I'm currently playing as Egypt and so far have seen four wars:
Rome/Greece, Greece/Persia, Egypt/Persia (started that one), and Arabia/Egypt.

This mod just keeps getting better and better!

 

[Methos]

I have never tried playing as England.
<snip>
Among the British Isles, there is room to build 4-5 cities, they would just be very close together.

I've played England a couple of times [several versions ago] and both times I was the first to settle Australia. Neither game I played out until the end and knew it, so I stayed with just the English lands, Australia, and the New World. I was hoping [in the last English attempt] to recreate the American Revolution and settle in New England and wait for the Americans to arrive. Unfortunately I never finished that game.

I believe I had four cities on England and two on the island next to it [Isle of Man?]. This has worked well for me.

Haven't tried 0.84 yet. Looking forward to it.

 

[V. Soma]

Rhye, could you spare some words on how the new war-starting system is working? You see, I am behind with how things develop here...
(hopefully will get back to civving next week or so)

 

[HÄI]

I believe I had four cities on England and two on the island next to it [Isle of Man?].

Uh... Ireland?