Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded

[Rhye]

Hope I didnt piss anyone off, an Rhye I knew you were against taht idea, dont know why I bothered to bring it up again ;p

Don't worry I hope you understand my point of view

 

[Aeon221]

aeon221@hotmail.com or eeline@thehill.org

your choice, at least one is in my user profile.

Thanks Rhye!

 

[Aeon221]

My SN for AIM is *GASP* Aeon221 (WHAT a SURPISE!!!)

I have an ICQ number too but I need to ReDL it to use it... Ill get right on it ;p

243070645 for ICQ... and MSN IM doesnt work at my school, so no point in using that.

 

[Admiral Armada]

Does this mod only let you play on the wrold map, or can you also play on a random map?

 

[Rhye]

there's a separate biq for the random map. You can use it, but the mod loses many of its features.

 

[Khift]

"God fights on the side with the heaviest artillery."

You know, that has a certain... ring to it. Sounds like you could stuff it into a rock song or some such.

Let me say this: The Master of Orion series is of the devil, for it stole me from this! But, I'm back. I guess.




Rhye: Would you consider, for the XPack, expanding the repertoire of early naval units? Seeing as most civs are stuck with boring little 1/1/3 Galleys from mid Ancient to late Medieval ages, early naval warfare is about as entertaining as watching flies f***! As I've said before, only two new units (Trireme and Galleass) and a little rearrangement of mid to late naval stats to give some play room for the Trireme and Galleass. I recommend putting them at Map Making and Gunpowder.

I honestly feel that this would add alot to the game. It isn't a very difficult thing to do, yet it would add a good deal of depth to some otherwise lifeless pre-modern naval warfare.

 

[Khift]

About Poland and the UUs to use: Poland was a relatively large power in the pre-nationalism era, and had some good Cavalry. Of course, we all know that we need more horse UUs, but I feel it fits with Poland just as it does with most other East European countries. I direct you towards the Cossacks Conversion thread, (Which you seem to have already noticed, due to your choice of the Napolean king sprite,) where there is a very nice picture of a "Polish Winged Hussar" (Full thread). That could most certainly fit the bill for a Polish UU in the standard mod.

The pride and glory of the cavalry, its mailed first, was the Husaria, the winged cavalry. Operating in regiments of about 300, the front rank carried an astonishing lance of up to twenty feet in length (thus outreaching infantry pikes and allowing the Husaria to cut straight through an enemy square). They also carried a sabre or rapier with a six - foot blade (another weapon which was unique to the Poles!), as well as a pair of pistols, a short carbine, a bow and arrows and a variety of other weapons, the most lethal of which was the "czekan", a long steel hammer which could go through heads and helmets like butter!

The ultimate weapon of the Husaria was psychological. As well as wearing helmets, thick steel breastplates and shoulder and arm guards the Husaria also wore wings; great wooden arcs bristling with eagle feathers attached to the back of the saddle or the shoulders. Over their shoulders they wore the skin of a tiger or leopard as a cloak. Their harnesses, saddles and horse-cloths were embroidered and embellished with gold and gems and their long lances were painted with stripes like a stick of rock and decorated with a five-foot-long silk pennant which, along with the wings and jingling jewellery, made a frightful sound (described as "an evil hiss" by some) and sight during the charge. They even sometimes painted their horses red and white!

Another thing I found about Polish military was that their well trained and well armed musketmen had roughly 10 times the amount of firepower than average during their heyday.

The infantry was lightly dressed without helmets or armour and armed with musket, short sword and hatchet. Only one man in eight carried a pike. In the 1550's a Polish regiment of 200 men could fire 150 shots in five minutes (contemporary Spanish brigades of 10,000 men could only deliver 750 in the same time)! Polish infantry possessed ten times greater firepower on a man-to-man basis than standard European infantries.

Sounds like UU material to me! Musket replacement, two additional attack or defense (I don't know if you'll have Musketmen offensive or defensive...) combined with a 10 shield increase in cost sounds right to me. I'm sure you could find a good animation - the Unit forum seems full of different musket infantry units. If I find one, though, I'll let you know.

Where'd I get this? Off of Google, of course! A couple other sites seconded his claims, although I won't bog you down with quoting them.

Either way, it sounds to me like the Polish deserve a spot in this mod. They, currently, aren't represented by anyone, although the Byzantines could be represented by three different civs. (Rome + Greece = Byzantines in the Medieval age, since Byzantine culture was Greek to the point that even the official language was Greek, and the Ottomans could represent them afterwards.)

Forgive me for being such a nagger about this thing, but I am hardheaded, and don't give up easily.

 

[Blasphemous]

I agree with Khift, naval warfare should be expanded throughout the ages... It's a realy shame with all that sea that we don't get to enjoy it very much. If there were some early naval units that are made for combat only, perhaps we'd see something more interesting going on in the Mediterranean in the ancient age and across the globe later on in the age of sail...
EDIT: I also agree that the Byantines must go (if only for the fact they are already reperesented) and the Polish should replace them.

 

[Khift]

Two final things: I really really like this new barbarian system. Not only does it decrease loading times, it removes two great aggravations - barbarians spawning from "goody" huts, and the infinite supply of barbarian warriors that flow from their camps, while still giving them enough strength that you need to be wary of them. Bravo, Rhye!

Also, the Urals should not be much of a barrier. They never really were a barrier - the Appalachians are about as imposing as the Urals are. The biggest thing that kept the East and the West separated was just the vast amount of space between the Urals and China, and even that was breached by the Russians and the Mongols. Isolationist tendencies also helped keep them apart, too. For example: the tallest mountain in the Urals is Mt. Yanchenko at 1740 meters, while generally speaking a "large" mountain is about 6000 meters tall. When you put it in context, the Urals aren't really much more than some glorified hills!

 

[Aeon221]

TO be ABSOLUTELY honest, I am in total agreement with you Khift ;p

I have some in game reasons to be with you on this one:

Ottman-Byzantine-Greek crowding is simply horrendous!

Large wasted open area between Russia and Germany-Austria (little lebensraum, or however you spell it ;p) needs somebody to fill it.

Only 1/2 of my ethnicity is in this mod (Italian and German)! I am pushing for 3/4 with the Poles... and maybe later some way to include something Irish? ;p

BTW Khift, dont know if you noticed, but this battle was also fought like forty pages ago. Rhye won it too ;p

I would also vote keep the Greeks, boot the Byzantines (even though I did recreate the Roman Empire with them in one game haha)

AND just as a little bonus you could use that extra galley unit called the Dromon to add some spice to seafaring civs! Take away its transport powers, reduce it to defensive bombard only, and just give it to the seafarers AS IS!

ALSO, England is a pretty interesting late game play! I have colonies throughout the world (most siezed from other civs with my incredibly useful Man of War!) AND a few late wonders (dont bother much with the earlies as they go away too soon) with the amazing production power of the Iron Works, factory, coal plant setup.

Currently I am right on target for 1918 (current year) tech wise, and have managed to keep a clean reputation (apart from an unfortunate incident with a Roman MPP causing me to enter a WW and break a RoP with teh Germans).

I decided to not conquer any country definitively, following historical brisith policy as regards Europe, and am therefore not winning the game per se at this point... but considering how things are shaping up resourcewise, things will soon change as regards that.

Rhye, England is fine when played by a human in the Industrial and Modern ages, but is weak no matter who plays her in the Early and Medieval eras.

France needs some work; in the game I played, it stayed up tech wise, but was unable to reach much in the way of territorial growth (and what few colonies it had... munch munch).

Perhaps other people have different opinions about France? I would suggest a few early growth bonuses, just to help things along in that respect. Small things, like wheat or bonus grasslands, maybe a single cattle added. Just to kick up their production in the short run ;p

 

[Aeon221]

You leave those Urals alone! They were a massive barrier in another sense, namely that Europeans did not cross them in any numbers until the cossacks in the early/mid 1600s under Russian command.

However, I have seen Russia develop perfectly in all the games I have played with the new patch, so DONT CHANGE A THING!!! ;p

 

[Khift]

BTW Khift, dont know if you noticed, but this battle was also fought like forty pages ago. Rhye won it too ;p

Ohh I know - I was there! I just like being stubborn.

When I played England back in 2.50, it wasn't hard to keep up at all. In the ancient and early medieval eras I do admit to sweating some as my continental friends kept a small lead on me, but during the late medieval the tables turned and I took off. The only thing that kept me from a spaceship victory (Which I had hoped for from the start) was that aggravating 5 turn research minimum. I could research techs in five turns beginning in the early Industrial age! By the time I finally reached the modern age around 2010AD I could leave my research at 30% and still get the intended tech in five turns. Very aggravating, considering it almost cost me victory - I had to pull a diplomatic victory out of my butt to win there, seeing as at 2030 I had six or seven more techs to go before I could build all of the spaceship parts.

 

[Tyrion]

Back in 2.42 i thik when i won as Rome Russia got devoured by Germany. As Did France. Though the Entire World helped with that. No one liked Rome in the End because i Killed any Weak Neighbours but hey thats Rome.

 

[Rhye]

-> I want keep Poland for a future possible Civ-Pack.
I disagree with you and consider Byzantines much more important than Poland, and think that the space between Germany and Russia is not that big. They would be another Netherlands, made to be divoured by Germany and Russia (which in fact really happened!).
But I see you're 3 now requesting this. And I remember that the battle for Israel was a "Pirro victory" (I don't know if you know the meaning, it means a very bloody battle with many casualities) for me. It was a very small victory over Sumeria.
Iirc Jaguar you didn't want the civ-pack, right?
But it seems the only was for me to make everybody happy - a pack with 4-5 new civs that include Poland and Sumeria, as an optional biq (FOR THE BASIC MOD).
To be made after the Xpack. It's an easy work for me, very quick to do, but the Xpack has the priority.

-> I know that Urals are low mountains, but barbarian camps position may be very important to obstacle colonization. I've improved the positions a bit in the BIQ I've in my HD (which contains a bit more powerful England). But it's not enough to make a patch.

-> About the galleass and other naval units: I cannot answer at this time.
It would be my intention, but it collides the flavour units project. Well in truth, this projects is still incomplete, and I don't know if I'll put it in the pack.
I'll explain the problem better some other day, not now.
For sure, what I need now is accurate naval history information.
I'd be extremely grateful if some of you posted a timeline of different ships: invented by who - used by who - from #### to ####. I need as much info as you can give me, especially about non-european naval warfare.

 

[Aeon221]

I will get on it (AHHH I LEFT MY MAHAN AT HOME!!!) but you need to be more specific!

Everything IS everything, and there is a lot out there, from Quinquiremes to Early Submarines (gotta love the alliteration ;p) so once you specify, I will hunt specifics. I ***think*** I can find a basic naval time line tonite (playing an amazing WWII scenario, mega huge and slow ahh) .

 

[Aeon221]

I did not know exactly what to look for, but this is what I came up with. Its pretty comprehensive, should cover most areas, with a few sites intermixed which can link you to pretty much anything else you need. And of course, the infamous GlobalSecurity.org for the modern stuff has pretty much anything you want to know about the modern world's weapons systems.

I think the naval research is covered in general, in specific I am ready and willing, just dont know what to shoot for.

Have fun ;p


http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1820/WSP/ships.html#galley

Ancient ships (Galley to Galleass)

http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/gen1.htm

Ship Ratings (sail) and info on cannon/crew

http://www.snowcrest.net/jmike/ancientmil.html

ancient warfare (some links on ships, may check later)

http://home.europa.com/~bessel/Naval/Navlinks.html#A

more age of sail stuff, specific vessels

http://www.snowcrest.net/jmike/index.html

large general history area

http://www.snowcrest.net/jmike/war2.html

Comprehensive military history site

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm#swt

Comprehensive WWI site

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm#swt

Ships in WW2 All navies except soviet

http://globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/index.html

modern ships US

 

[Jaguar]

-> I want keep Poland for a future possible Civ-Pack.
I disagree with you and consider Byzantines much more important than Poland, and think that the space between Germany and Russia is not that big. They would be another Netherlands, made to be divoured by Germany and Russia (which in fact really happened!).
But I see you're 3 now requesting this. And I remember that the battle for Israel was a "Pirro victory" (I don't know if you know the meaning, it means a very bloody battle with many casualities) for me. It was a very small victory over Sumeria.
Iirc Jaguar you didn't want the civ-pack, right?

In English, the phrase is a "Pyrrhic Victory". It's named after the same general, but I suppose the name got changed a little in translation.

I don't think the civ-pack is a good use of your time. Certainly I would play with it if you made it, but I don't think the civ-pack would make anyone much happier. The main benefit of it is that it gives people more strategies to think about, and could keep people interested for a longer time. However, it would force you to balance two separate biqs.

I don't think that the Poles would be another Dutch. The Dutch only have two contiguous cities most games. They have Amsterdam, and a city in Denmark. Then they have a few useless cities in Russia or something. The Poles could likely get 3 or 4 cities together in Eastern Europe.

BTW, I'm in full agreement with the people who want more ships. I think that's a great idea.

 

[cemo1956]

I cast my vote for the Polish.If any votes should be issued.
However Iäm not sure they should replace the Byzantines...

The Polish played many key parts from 1000 AD and forward. Many flavour units has also been publsihed beside the Winged Husaria. Units before 1000 AD could be similar to germanic tribes and even Goths. Lots of units in that department as flavour. Many fine Knights from BeBro can be used before the Winged Hussars, that should pop up in the time of Gunpowder.

I too go for more ship units with those fine creations like the Galleass. The standard Civ3 has too little from that Galley up to Medieval sailing ships Caravel, Carrack and Galleons.
A super mod with soo much potentials still left in it.

Have a look at Poland
http://www.fact-index.com/h/hi/history_of_poland.html

 

[Rhye]

the fact that the pack is postponed to after the Xpack means that the basic biq is already definitive and needs no more patches. For this reason once I see that the civ-pack biq is balanced, it will require no updates.
I don't want to discuss Poland's importance, but I think that Byzantines are more important. Maybe it's just a matter of what you studied at school
The civ-pack is the best effert I can do to satisfy these requests.

 

[Rhye]

thanks, aeon.
To be more specific, I need you to write a line for each of the ships contained in civ3 and some other available by unit creators.

I can fill some lines by myself, but something's missing:

name - invented by who - used by who - from #### to ####

Curragh ?
Canoe - native americans only?
Sampan ?
Hokulea
(one oar) Galley - the greeks? - Mediterranean? - ? to 1500
Bireme - the Phoenicians - ? - 700BC to ?
Trireme - ? - Mediterranean? - 500 to ?
Junk - ? - Far east - ?
Kublai ?
Tongkang Singapore only? - ?
Dhow - ? - Arabia only or indian ocean countries too? - ?
Longship - Vikings? - Vikings - ?
Dromon - Greeks or Byzantines? - Byzantines? - ?
Cog - the Dutch - northern Europe - 1000AD to 1400
Hulk/Holk - the Dutch?
Galleass - ? - southern Europe only? - ?
Caravel - the Portuguese - Spanish and Port. only? - 1400 and 1500 (it's a smaller carrack)
Carrack - the Genovese - Spanish and Port. only? - 1400 and 1500
Turtle Ship - Koreans - Koreans - ?
Corvette ? - Europeans only? - ? - (it's a smaller frigate)
Frigate ? - Europeans only? - ? - (it's a smaller ship of the line)
Galleon ? - Southern Europeans only? - ? -
Treasure Ship ? - China only? - ?
Man-o-War ? - Europeans only? - ?
Ship of the Line - ? -
Ironclad ? - Europe and far east? - ?
....


please fill the rest of the "?"