Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Modpacks' started by Rhye, Feb 5, 2004.
Something of that sort?
I've sent to Blasphemous, Aeon, Asclepius and Jaguar the first tweak to the biq, with no civilopedia and no unit animation (I'll add them while you examine the biq).
For now you can see the new UUs, the new unit upgrade paths, the new unit stats, the new added units for every civ (for now Dhow, Urban Militia, Galleass, Partisan, Lancer, Biplane).
If I can I'll post tomorrow for everybody the screenshots of all the 31 UUs (still not definitive).
Religions, techs and flavour units will come later, this is only the first step.
Please notice that many units will be moved to other added techs. In particular units that come with Feudalism and Military Tradition will be split.
One thing that caught my attention is the Pikeman stats of 3/3/1... From a realistic standpoint the attack should not improve in the upgrade from Spear to Pike... Pikemen are way more bulky than spearmen (judging by the animation at least) and their weapon was designed purely for defense (against knights, in particular - a job it was especially effective at).
I see the naval units' stats have been tweaked (either that or I've completely forgotten the stats that I've been playing with over the last couple days)... I would expect the Transport to be able to defend itself against wooden ships seeing as it seems to have a mounted machinegun that can put a real hurting on an unprotected sailing crew.
I still think that Legionaries should be extra-expensive and extra-powerful (4/2/1 +1HP @50s) making them appear in small numbers to great effect.
Immortals could be regular spearmen only with +1 HP since originally it was a single unit that never seemed to die (for a few years, that is.) But the current way is fine as well. I won't complain, after I saw how awesome it was to have these guys for so cheap in my current game...
Why exactly are Men-at-Arms now called Urban Militia?
Do I assume correctly that the idea of Horse Archers is that they are slightly early knights that don't need Iron?
The new UUs are for the most part absolutely amazing.
Why does the longship have a worker strength and no transport capacity? O_o
Alright, I'm looking through the biq now.
Firstly, the Longship has movement of 1. Am I missing something here?
Secondly, with regards to Junk and Galley: They seem to be more or less identical, except the Junk costs less, and they upgrade a little differently. Also, they're both available to all civs. Shouldn't Galleys be for Europe and the Mediterranean, and Junks for the Far East?
Blasphemous is right on with these comments.
I agree that 2/3/1 is a little better for Pikemen than 3/3/1. Making units stronger at one thing than another encourages combined arms. However, 2/3/1 makes them more similar to Crossbowmen, so it's a tough call to make. Perhaps 2/3/1 and a little cheaper...
Urban Militia is not a good name. It sounds too modern.
I love the new UUs. They are truly unique, instead of just adding bonus stats. The nuclear UUs, the Grand Armee, and everything.
Again, I think you need to look at the longship. It seems like you were making its stats, got distracted, and never finished with them.
I hurried some of the stats, and that's the case of the longship.
Basically it should be a stronger galley (2 defense) as it has to face bad seas. And it is not wheeled.
In fact now the ocean is impassable by wheeled unit (galley, dromon, trireme, bireme, curragh).
The new added sea units are the junk and the galleass, for one reason:
after browsing A LOT of pages on the web, I realized that there's a huge distinction between oar vessels and sailing-only vessels.
And there's no reason for having a mediterranean galley for all the civs. I've chosen the junk as the generic ancient sailing ship, which has one bonus (is not wheeled, so it can touch the ocean) and one malus (doesn't ignore coast movement cost (now raised to 2, which instead is ignored by manouvrable oar-vessels)).
The galleass is the upgrade of the galleys, as it has a row of oars.
About the urban militia -> the name isn't modern, as I took it from Medieval total war. It's the generic medieval infantry, cheap, non-armoured. It won't have the original med.infantry animation, that instead represents the man-at-arms (basically a dismounted knight). This unit is very important in the line that goes from a 3/1/1 swordsman with no iron to partisan, guerrilla, etc.
About the pikeman -> that was a very difficult stats to choose. Forget their previous role in Civ3: now the archers are defensive. Pikemen were excellent attackers versus infantry, and excellent defenders versus cavalry. And they are armoured. A 3/3/1+iron allows them not to interfere with crossbowmen (1/3/1) or urban militia (3/2/1) role. And offers nice upgrades (4/3/1 tercio, 3/4/1 samurai).
About the legionary -> now they cost +10 gold, while the rest of the swordsmen are 3/1/1, so they have a +2 defense! Better a 4/2/1? Surely not a 4/3/1 (too unbalancing)
About the horse archers -> as I've added the lancer, I've got 2 "napoleonic" cavalry units, and so a new medieval unit was needed. At first I thought of adding a "light knight" that upgrades to the lancer (light cavalry).
Instead I decided to make horse archers upgrade to cavalry (ranged cavalry) and the other chain is horseman-knight-lancer (melee units)
I think that 4/2/1 is better for them (they were never meant to hold ground, they conquered and other parts of the roman army held what they conquered for the most part.) Also please consider giving them +1HP and making them cost another 10 extra shields, to represent they were elite soldiers, ahrd to train, hard to kill.
by the way, immortals weren't called that way because they were strong, but because they were 10'000. For each casuality there was another unit. This is why they are cheap.
blasphemous, is Merkava correct? Or is it Mervaka 4?
RE Immortals: I didn't say they were strong, they just never seemed to die because, as you said, their ranks were replenished down to the soldier before every battle. And they were, by the way, hand-picked elite soldiers, not just any other bunch of fighting men.
RE Merkava: I'm pretty sure it's Merkava mk. 4. I can look into it tomorrow if you want.
Legions WERE meant to hold ground (legion towns? Caesar in Gaul? primary roadbuilders and fortification builders for rome?) , and Rhye keep the Pike stats as is. Think swiss pikes everyone! And that was the standard goal of all Pikes! Think Phalanx! Macedonian Phalanxes in Alex's Persian Campaigns fought against...
A) Large numbers of horsies?
B) Large numbers of soldiers, mostly infantry (IE: PERSIAN ARMY)
C) A small blue bunny?
(Hint hint, go with C!) ;p
I will admit to not knowing much about the Immortals, but I can say that they were a unit designed with the standard goal of creating a group of men who were so tightly bound that they would not flee due to their love for one another (Theban Companions style).
Also, Rhye, I did NOT get the BIQ. I AM SLAVERING!!!
I've been busy the past few days, so I haven't be able to get back to you. As you've elaborated on some of the changes you're making, I noticed we are both pretty much heading in the same direction. I could send or post(I'm not sure if or how to do this) what I've done, but mostly so far I've only added about 70 units (almost all flavor)(w/ civ entrees, research for the most part) and altered the ruleset and your map(using maptweaker as you suggested, its worked out great). I'm afriad looked at right now in the editor, it won't make much sense; I've started with the minute and will work my way up to the big picture. I'll hopefully be done in a week, but if you really want to look at it now, or take some of the unit files/pedia/civ entries, and can sent part or the whole. I really have no probablem if you want to canabalize it. We are both making some similar ajustments.
ha, i added the same unit, right down to the name taken from Total War. You're using Kinboat's Medieval Resistor, right? with the pitchfork? It fills a good role as cheap, resource-free infantry.
Rhye, I was wondering could you release an updated version of 2.62 with the terrain fixed in North America and wine you were talking about, also with the new barbairians placed without barbarian huts? Or are you only doing this for the Xpack?
or just erase America as a civ and add native tribes as civs.
Not for the Xpack, it will be the 2.63, together with the new Elephant Archer animation (currently in progress by DomPedroII). I'm waiting for it, because otherwise I'd have to release another patch when it comes out.
I don't want to copy anything, as I've quite clear ideas on what to do. I said that because in case I have some troubles it could be helpful
No I'm not using it, that seems a ploughman in jeans. I'll use flavour culture-specific cheap non-armoured medieval infantry
Didn't you? Is the mail correct?
Right a bit of research has revealed two ships used by indian pirates. One was a small oared and sailed vessel called a gallivat but the second (probably better) is a large sailed vessel called a ghrab (or grab).
The small vessels are gallivats and the large sailed ones on the left and centre right are Ghrabs. The one with the large flag at mast head, in the centre, being an English vessel.
Above is another image of a ghrab.
Above is another gallivat.
These ships were powerfully armed and were the only none-european navies to ever defeat the colonial powers. They crushed a Dutch expeditionary fleet in 1742. The Ghrab was such a good vessel that it actually influenced european ship building for decades to come.
BTW in a recent game of RoC (latest patch) the aztecs built the pyramids, is this meant to happen? Have you considered including some meso-american wonders (like the chechen Itza) and maybe Cacau (cocoa) as a resource - necessary to build them.
I don't know what second UU you have selected for England but have you considered Welsh longbowmen (they were the finest archers of the medieval period and what defeated the french in the 100 years war).
-> Thank you very much. The most similar unit animation available in this forum to the gallivat is the dhow. Instead, the grab has no similar animation, except for the corvette (but it's only the privateer without the logo).
The best animation will decide which unit to use.
-> England 2nd UU is the longbowman. (replaces the crossbowman)
-> Yes, Aztecs can build pyramids because they have access to incense. In the pack one or two meso-american wonders will surely be added.
for you Rhye, dont bother with that one. Go with firstname.lastname@example.org
Hahahahhaha Hotmail hid it in junk ;p
It was right between an enlargement ad and a *naughty picture* ad, so I skipped over it by accident ;p
Will check out Immediately!!!
Errrr... I seem to be missing the Art Folder... rather a bugger really... ;p
Or did I screw something up?
I did not send any animation or civilopedia (read the mail!), only the stats.
Scratch what I said about the Roman Legions... I kinda realized it was probably wrong as I was writing it (mainly because I remembered Caesar in Gaul)... As usual it was probably a scrap of misinformation left in my head after reading something about it somewhere here in the forums... Bleh.
I say, make them 3/3/1 +1HP. Make the cost 20 more than that of a Swordsman. They will be worth their price.
But then again, of course, Rome has no chance to rise to its imperial glory because it's yet-unborn successor is blocking its path to the north and to the east. *Insert lesser reasons to remove Byzantines from the game.*
i need some test on the war wagon (can it transport units?), the kamikaze (destroyed after attacking?), the grande armée (does the leader create it? or the standard amy?; can it contain 5 units?)
Here's my Europe map. Russia and the Ukraine isn't finished (I dont have a map on European Russia) and only Britain, Greece, Anatolia, Israel and Egypt has resources. If anyone wants to help with the map feel free to add to it (If anyone can finish Russia that would help a lot).
Separate names with a comma.