Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded

[Rhye]

I know they were stong, etc.
But I can't make some UU much more powerful than others.

Let's see, again. What do you think of this:

3/3/1 standard pikeman
3/4/1 tercio
4/3/1 samurai (+1 hp, +10 gold)
4/4/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)

 

[Blasphemous]

Fine with me, but I don't know what the Tercio really is so afaik it may be totally inappropriate for them.
Also I think accuracy is more important than diversity and if two UUs are very similar than so be it... And anyway, nobody complains about (standard game) Hoplites being 1.3.1 and Numidian Mecenaries being 2.3.1 +10 cost... What's the difference between that and the Tercio 4.3.1 - Samurai 4.3.1 +1HP +10 cost thing?

 

[Khift]

Look, Samurais are some of the most awesome warriors of history. Seems to me they deserve the extra HP bonus to represent how elite they are, and the extra cost to represent the fact they were not ever present in the millions. I don't exactly know what the Tercio is so I can't say anything about its stats.

I really really really (really) don't want to get into another Samurai vs. Knight debate (Every time it pops up it gets extremely bloody), but the Samurai isn't as much as it was chalked up to be. They were great, yes. They were chivalrous and such, but they couldn't do feats like in the movies, and their swords weren't able to cut through a metal pipe or anything like that.


I've got another solution to the Samurai problem, Rhye: Why aren't they replacing knights or horse archers? In truth they were horse archers, and they had a code of chivalry much like that of European knights. And Japan still did use pikemen. The way I see it, having them replace pikemen produces alot of problems - too little room to vary your pikemen UUs. I propose the following for the samurai:

Foot unit, replaces knight, requires iron
5.3.1 70 Shields

OR

Horse unit, replaces horse archer, requires horses and iron
(Whatever horse archer stats are +1 attack)

 

[Rhye]

There are nice mounted samurai animations in the PTW extra folders. But are we sure that samurais were all on horse?

 

[Rhye]

I'll try to send you v0.3 today.

Here's the complete list of the wonders with benefits
In brackets the number of civs with that trait.

Greek (3):
- Temple of Artemis -> standard
- Statue of Zeus ->doubles strength vs barbarians

Egyptian (1):
- The Great Pyramid -> standard

Zoroastrian (1):
- Mausoleom of Mausollos -> standard

Pagan (11):
- Moai Statues(easter island) -> +1 ship mov, must be coastal
- Baal's sacrificial altar -> doubles sacrifice
- Epic of Gilgamesh -> doubles research output

Confucian (2):
- Terracotta Army -> produces a Qin Spearman each 5 turns

Shintoist (1):
- Izumo Shrine -> same as mausoleum

Hinduist (1):
- Sacred river (Ganges) -> same as colossus, must be near a river

Jewish (1):
- Temple Mount (Jerusalem) -> same as bach, great culture (8)

Mesoamerican (3):
- Temple of the Sun -> same as Baal's
- Temple of Kukulkan (Chicken Itza) -> same as Artemis

Nordic (7):
- Ubsola (Asa temple at Uppsala) -> same as sun Tzu
- Stonehenge -> same as Oracle

---------------------now the middle ages--------------

Christian (18):
- Knights Templar -> standard
- St Peter's Basilica (Rome) -> standard (it's the Sistine Chapel renamed)
- Papal States -> huge cultural boost (10) and nothing else, requires palace

Muslim (8):
- Holy War -> standard
- Black Stone (Mecca) -> same as Temple Mount

Buddhist (4):
- Potala Palace (Tibet) -> same as Temple Mount


-------------------now all the other wonders------------

Slave Trade -> produces an African slave each 10 turns. Requires tobacco (now an American-only luxury). Slaves have 34% efficency

Statue of Liberty -> same as Great Library. Available with democracy. Requires mustangs (american horses)

Olympic Games -> same as colossus. Available with Radio

Trading Company -> puts an harbor in each city (Adam's Smith's was renamed)

Eiffel Tower -> old Adam Smith's trading c. effect

Great Wall -> a wall in every city on continent. It no longer doubles stregth vs. barbarians.

Great lighthouse -> Now +2 ship movement (considered the movement cost)

Cure for Cancer -> city growth causes +2 citizens (old Longevity)


Coprnicus obs, Longevity, Bach's cathedral were deleted.

The rest of the wonders (Oracle, etc.) remains unchanged

 

[Three_Crowns]

There are nice mounted samurai animations in the PTW extra folders. But are we sure that samurais were all on horse?

Yes. In one time period they were mounted.

 

[Asclepius]

The Mausoleum of Mausollos is more commonly known as the Mausoleum of Helicarnassus.

 

[Aeon221]

Wonder list looks GREAT! Maybe make Shakespeare's Theatre Christian? Most of his plays have a high degree of Christian thought and tradition in them, and would not have been produced in, say, Japan, where they had the Noh Theatre, which is very different!

RE: Samurai

They were classically rather excellent warriors, but indeed at their earliest they were most certainly archers. Mounts were also something they did use, but the samurai
traditionally fought on foot.

The early Samurai engaged in ritualized archery duels, much like those of the Chinese warriors of the period. The Samurai developed a code of conduct and dependency on the sword that was very similar to those of the European Knight. As to their swords slicing through metal pipes and whatnot... folded steel is very sharp, and very strong. Maybe, maybe not.

I like the stats Rhye gave them; I think it makes them into a decent attacker, with a couple of bonuses to make up for their 1 pt move. It will give Japan the ability to invade China, but not make the invasion an easy victory.

RE: Tercio

These units were sword wielding groups of Spanish infantry, Renaissance era, whose training and equipment was purposely based on that of the Roman Legion. They were extremely effective on the attack, and managed to defeat the Swiss on several occasions. They were born of the conflict with Grenada, as were most Spanish military formations.

This is not shown in their stats; to be honest, I do not understand why they do not have the same stats as the Samurai. They are both going to be performing the same duties at opposite ends of the globe.

That is all pretty summarized, but you can get a general idea of where I am coming from on this one. ;p

YAY SAT DAY! :{

 

[Blasphemous]

Back to multiple quotes! =P

Christian (18):
- Knights Templar -> standard
- St Peter's Basilica (Rome) -> standard (it's the Sistine Chapel renamed)
- Papal States -> huge cultural boost (10) and nothing else, requires palace

With more nations than any other (more than most others put together really) Christianity needs at least 4 or 5 wonders... If there aren't any good ones to add simply move over to there non-religious wonders that were built by Chrisitan nations, as this will fill the gap of wonders for Christianity and also improve historical accuracy.

Slave Trade -> produces an African slave each 10 turns. Requires tobacco (now an American-only luxury). Slaves have 34% efficency

Errr... American-only? Do you mean only the Americans get it or it's only in America? And why does either option make sense? o_O

Statue of Liberty -> same as Great Library. Available with democracy. Requires mustangs (american horses)

Excellent! This will finally allow America to become world leaders once discovered by enough nations!

Trading Company -> puts an harbor in each city (Adam's Smith's was renamed)

Also excellent, this will allow nice colonial empires.

The rest of the wonders (Oracle, etc.) remains unchanged

The Oracle should be a Greek religious wonder but there are not enough nations in that religion to have three wonders... Dunno what should be done about it.

 

[Rhye]

With more nations than any other (more than most others put together really) Christianity needs at least 4 or 5 wonders... If there aren't any good ones to add simply move over to there non-religious wonders that were built by Chrisitan nations, as this will fill the gap of wonders for Christianity and also improve historical accuracy.

The problem is that I can't move Shakespeare's teathre or anything else to the Christian tech, because it is just after Theology, and it allows early medieval wonders.
If I add another one, it needs to be in that period of time. But I wouldn't know what to put in...

Errr... American-only? Do you mean only the Americans get it or it's only in America? And why does either option make sense? o_O

America as a continent.
Unitl now tobacco was only in America until navigation. Then it spreads to all the world.
To have Slave Trade built on an American continent, it needs an American strategic or luxury resource.
That can only be tobacco: slaves were sent to work in tobacco and cotton fields.
So Tobacco is now a luxury, and the 2nd kind of tobacco is deleted (otherwise it would create the tobacco-to-tobacco trade)

The Oracle should be a Greek religious wonder but there are not enough nations in that religion to have three wonders... Dunno what should be done about it.

That's the problem. They will remain in that way.

 

[Blasphemous]

Christianity MUST have more wonders, doesn't matter what wonders they are there just have to be more of them. Aren't there some other famous cathedrals, churches, or monestaries that can be used?

But the americas were not the only places to have a slave trade... Would make more sense for it to require an Indiginous Tribe start resource available in Africa.

 

[Khift]

America was by no means the only destination of the slave trade.

I don't think that the Statue of Zeus should have that ability - it just isn't useful enough in this map, seeing as there probably won't be many barbarians left by the time it is built. I vote to remove the Statue of Zeus and put the Oracle in it's place.

Stonehenge isn't a very good wonder; it was built around 3000 BC by a small tribe of people that crossed the channel from Normandy and never had any significance outside of England during the time period it was built, and later it grew into only an intriguing ruin.

I say that the Kabbah (Black Stone of Mecca) should be like the Colossus and Sacred Ganges; the Islamic requirement that every muslim must visit the city of Mecca generated boatloads of trade.

Possible Christian wonders:
- Holy Roman Empire (Get the Pope to name your country the Holy Roman Empire, no clue for effect)
- Justinian's Code (Basis of all Western law, maybe add Courthouses to every city)
- City of God (Book written by St. Augustine, pushed that every city needs a piece of the divine (A church) to guide them, effect should be obvious)

Could you rename the Knights Templar to the Crusades? It seems that the game had a mix up of cause and effect; the Crusades led to Crusaders establishing the Crusader Kingdoms in the holy lands, and then the Knights Templar was established to protect the Crusader Kingdoms.

I also would like to push for the distinction between early monarchies, which were little more than despotisms with religious approval, and the later feudal monarchies. The difference between the monarchy of Babylon and the monarchy of England is astounding.

Additionally, if you feel that the Christian countries still need more of a boost due to their sheer number, you could add the Romanesque churches as a step between temples and cathedrals. It would help every Christian country, and would certainly be realistic. I'd have them be like the temple, just available later.

Samurai fought in two real conflicts: the first Mongol invasion (Which did hit land) and that huge civil war. Both were largely defensive battles - one was an invasion, the other was a stalemate until arquebusiers came along. Therefore, it might make sense for the Samurai to be a primarily defensive unit. Maybe. It's really a design decision, though.

Finally, when do you plan on making these wonders obsolete? Some, like the Statue of Liberty, really need to go obsolete after a while. (Which reminds me, if the Statue of Liberty requires Mustangs, then will you move the Mustang resource back from Military Tradition a little bit? Democracy comes before Mil. Trad. if my memory serves me right.)

 

[Rhye]

->The 4th christian wonder could be the Saint Sophia.

->The Kabbah has the same benefits as Buddhist and Jewish correspondant wonder.

-> Main slave trade was from western Africa to North America. You'll soon find lots of African workers there

->Democracy comes later than Mil. Tradition in the new tree

->There will be some tweaks to the governments. Later.

 

[Owain]

Trading Company -> puts an harbor in each city (Adam's Smith's was renamed)

I thought this wasn't possible since it tries to put harbors in landlocked cities and crashes the game.

X-Pack looks to be HUGE. Looking good Rhye.

 

[Khift]

-> Main slave trade was from western Africa to North America. You'll soon find lots of African workers there

False, unfortunately. The main slave trade was from Africa to South America, where about 6 million africans went. The Caribbean was next, with about 1.5 million africans sent there, and North America is hardly on the list with about .5 million.

 

[Khift]

->The Kabbah has the same benefits as Buddhist and Jewish correspondant wonder.

That's all nice and stuff, but there is a difference between the Temple Mount / Potala Palace and the Kabbah - every muslim was required to visit the Kabbah at least once during their lifetime. This turned Mecca into one hell of a trade city - all those pilgrims brought their money with them as well.

 

[Rhye]

I thought this wasn't possible since it tries to put harbors in landlocked cities and crashes the game.

No problem for that, the company will put a Trading post in each city instead of an harbour.
But there's one problem: the harbor symbol is shown upon the city....
...anybody can suggest a solution?

 

[Blasphemous]

No problem for that, the company will put a Trading post in each city instead of an harbour.
But there's one problem: the harbor symbol is shown upon the city....
...anybody can suggest a solution?

What's a trading post? o_O

 

[Rhye]

What's a trading post? o_O

Is it a wrong term?

In any case it doesn't matter.
Try testing with the new version I'm sending you now - the "allow water trade" ability generates the harbour symbol. I really don't know what to do about it.

 

[Rhye]

False, unfortunately. The main slave trade was from Africa to South America, where about 6 million africans went. The Caribbean was next, with about 1.5 million africans sent there, and North America is hardly on the list with about .5 million.

OK. In any case the wonder will be built by the strongest American nation