This seems the proper setting for real guerrilla. But what about infantry? I fear that these settings would cause nobody to build infantry anymore, even if they've rubber
Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded
- Thread starter Rhye
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This seems the proper setting for real guerrilla. But what about infantry? I fear that these settings would cause nobody to build infantry anymore, even if they've rubber
Do not be concerned, Rhye.
My Infantry have an attack of 9 (so they are a 9/10), and a BRF of 4.0.1 with Collateral Damage. The attack is so high because fortified units have a 50% defense bonus, as do rivers. Earlier foot units generally have an equal attack and defense, so they can participate in warfare.
My, uh, alterations are numerous, and have evolved from 2-1/2 years of Civ3'ing, not to mention the previous 30 years playing other computer and board war games/simulations. My mod's are continually evolving, and current "testing" concerns AI Army use and fooling with the archer line. I have abandoned the "attack unit" upgrade progression as in the game and gone more towards a historical feel.
Attached is a Word file documenting what I have done to your great mod.
I can't download your file. It's an "attachment" instead of showing the name of the file
Rhye, perhaps it is because I created the document on a Mac (my Wintel is just for playing Civ).
Download again, changing the "attachment" filename to "jbs2 rhyes of civ doc.zip" or anything you wish as long as it ends in ".zip".
EDIT: or just change the downloaded file's filename as above.
Download again, changing the "attachment" filename to "jbs2 rhyes of civ doc.zip" or anything you wish as long as it ends in ".zip".
EDIT: or just change the downloaded file's filename as above.
My compliments! That doc contains lot of changes based on your games. And some of these are very interesting.
I've some questions and some comments:
-> If a caravel contains a wheeled unit, can it cross the ocean?
-> You didn't mention dromon: do you set it wheeled, too? (probably yes)
-> The wheeled thing for oceans is a really good idea. If it works I'll add it
It will require some changes to the map, but I think that this will definitely destroy all the chances of "lucky" galleys
-> Clear wetlands ability makes AI waste workers. I think it's enough hampered.
-> Medieval units should require iron (except for mercenaries)
-> Disabiliting airlift for tanks is realistic. I think I'll add it
-> Same for adding airlift and removing pillage to scouts and explorers: I'll add this
-> I don't agree with giving 2 food to bananas
-> I agree with removing rubber for modern paratroopers
-> How do volcanos work with such a small period? Isn't annoying in the beginning?
-> Disappearance ratios may alter history. What if Rome had no legions? I think that's a good feature for random maps only. But I see that you apply it only to luxury resources.
-> I've never tried to build the spaceship; was it too easy? (considering that you've raised cost of some components)
-> Modern armor cost = 160. Why?
-> I'd like to hear other people's opinions on guerrilla. I'm not sure about it.
-> It seems that there's a mistake in my settings. Cavalry and cossacks need saltpeter and riflemen don't. I must choose if giving to all or removing to all
-> Ignore desert movement cost must be added, as desert cost was raised
-> standard civ traits were decided in order to fill all the combinations instead of giving priorities to history. I corrected their mistakes with a look at the gameplay (see Iroquois problem). It's strange that you put the originals back
There are still lots of changes to discuss, but testing here is more important than discussing. Anyway, there's something good for a 2.15 and for adding your name to the list!
By the way, please vote the poll if you haven't!
I've some questions and some comments:
-> If a caravel contains a wheeled unit, can it cross the ocean?
-> You didn't mention dromon: do you set it wheeled, too? (probably yes)
-> The wheeled thing for oceans is a really good idea. If it works I'll add it
It will require some changes to the map, but I think that this will definitely destroy all the chances of "lucky" galleys-> Clear wetlands ability makes AI waste workers. I think it's enough hampered.
-> Medieval units should require iron (except for mercenaries)
-> Disabiliting airlift for tanks is realistic. I think I'll add it
-> Same for adding airlift and removing pillage to scouts and explorers: I'll add this
-> I don't agree with giving 2 food to bananas
-> I agree with removing rubber for modern paratroopers
-> How do volcanos work with such a small period? Isn't annoying in the beginning?
-> Disappearance ratios may alter history. What if Rome had no legions? I think that's a good feature for random maps only. But I see that you apply it only to luxury resources.
-> I've never tried to build the spaceship; was it too easy? (considering that you've raised cost of some components)
-> Modern armor cost = 160. Why?
-> I'd like to hear other people's opinions on guerrilla. I'm not sure about it.
-> It seems that there's a mistake in my settings. Cavalry and cossacks need saltpeter and riflemen don't. I must choose if giving to all or removing to all
-> Ignore desert movement cost must be added, as desert cost was raised
-> standard civ traits were decided in order to fill all the combinations instead of giving priorities to history. I corrected their mistakes with a look at the gameplay (see Iroquois problem). It's strange that you put the originals back
There are still lots of changes to discuss, but testing here is more important than discussing. Anyway, there's something good for a 2.15 and for adding your name to the list!
By the way, please vote the poll if you haven't!
Mad Robin McMad
Chieftain
I've really enjoyed playing your mod. Due to the general rubbishness of my computer I could never play any large maps until now.
On the problem of "lucky galleys", I've played a few games where I set the ocean and sea squares to have a movement cost, much like you did with the bering strait.
I set the move cost to 3 and then altered the later sea units so they ignored it, I never saw any galleys where they weren't supposed to get to. I realise that when a civ discovers navigation or magnetism those ships are still going to be hampered crossing the sea or ocean but then I figure a galley wouldn't go that fast in high seas anyway.
I too got the massive stacks of Barbarian units sitting on their "huts", especially in South America, a few of these stacks had over 50 units in them and basically stopped the Incas from going anywhere, It took me a few turns with modern armor to get rid of them all and the game did seem to speed up a little after I got rid of them.
On the problem of "lucky galleys", I've played a few games where I set the ocean and sea squares to have a movement cost, much like you did with the bering strait.
I set the move cost to 3 and then altered the later sea units so they ignored it, I never saw any galleys where they weren't supposed to get to. I realise that when a civ discovers navigation or magnetism those ships are still going to be hampered crossing the sea or ocean but then I figure a galley wouldn't go that fast in high seas anyway.
I too got the massive stacks of Barbarian units sitting on their "huts", especially in South America, a few of these stacks had over 50 units in them and basically stopped the Incas from going anywhere, It took me a few turns with modern armor to get rid of them all and the game did seem to speed up a little after I got rid of them.
I really can't understand:
roaming: 8 units produced per camp each massive uprising
restless: 16
raging: 24
with "sedentary" there should be no uprising! Why does it happen? And how many units are being produced per camp?
roaming: 8 units produced per camp each massive uprising
restless: 16
raging: 24
with "sedentary" there should be no uprising! Why does it happen? And how many units are being produced per camp?
Mad Robin McMad
Chieftain
The barbarian camps o' doom that I saw, were the 3 that you've put on the map to begin with, which are a few squares up and to the left of the Inca start, so they had been there all game.
I first saw the camps in the early 1700's and there were only around 14 or 16 barbarians, when I later decided to attack the Inca in the 1970's there were about 50 on the 2 camps that are next to each other and 30 or so on the one in the jungle.
I never got any messages from the military advisor saying there'd been an uprising, despite building a city in 1760 on the rubber resource roughly in the area where Panama is in real life (square x29 y91 according to the editor), which is pretty close to them, though I suppose the Inca had a closer city.
I'm probably completely wrong but maybe camps (possibly only those placed using the editor, i.e in the game from the start) generate individual units every now and then with out it being called an uprising?
Then again having just looked at a saved game, maybe it's ignoring the sedentary setting, because a camp has just recently appeared in the Sahara, it defintly wasn't there before, because it was right next to a road that I'd bombed maybe 20 or so turns earlier. As I understand it no camps should appear at all on sedentary.
I first saw the camps in the early 1700's and there were only around 14 or 16 barbarians, when I later decided to attack the Inca in the 1970's there were about 50 on the 2 camps that are next to each other and 30 or so on the one in the jungle.
I never got any messages from the military advisor saying there'd been an uprising, despite building a city in 1760 on the rubber resource roughly in the area where Panama is in real life (square x29 y91 according to the editor), which is pretty close to them, though I suppose the Inca had a closer city.
I'm probably completely wrong but maybe camps (possibly only those placed using the editor, i.e in the game from the start) generate individual units every now and then with out it being called an uprising?
Then again having just looked at a saved game, maybe it's ignoring the sedentary setting, because a camp has just recently appeared in the Sahara, it defintly wasn't there before, because it was right next to a road that I'd bombed maybe 20 or so turns earlier. As I understand it no camps should appear at all on sedentary.
A camp appeared in the Sahara?? 
Can you post the savegame please? It's very important!
By the way, if there are swordsmen around, they're probably created with uprisings. Otherwise, warriors are created without.
Can you post the savegame please? It's very important!By the way, if there are swordsmen around, they're probably created with uprisings. Otherwise, warriors are created without.
-> If a caravel contains a wheeled unit, can it cross the ocean?
Yes, a non-wheeled transport can carry a wheeled unit in an impassable-to-wheeled ocean.
-> You didn't mention dromon: do you set it wheeled, too? (probably yes)
I probably did NOT -- thanks for bringing it to my attention!
-> The wheeled thing for oceans is a really good idea. If it works I'll add it
It will require some changes to the map, but I think that this will definitely destroy all the chances of "lucky" galleysIt works quite well.
-> Clear wetlands ability makes AI waste workers. I think it's enough hampered.
Last time I tried it, I had forgotten to reset the Clear Wetlands so I was not able to get any experience with it, so I do not know (yet). At any rate, it is mainly for MY usage.
-> Medieval units should require iron (except for mercenaries)
My philosophy on that is similar to your modern-units-don't-need-rubber argument. Metals are available everywhere that the (more advanced, middle-age) technology is available.
-> Disabiliting airlift for tanks is realistic. I think I'll add it
While current airlift transports can carry WWII tanks they cannot carry contemporary main battle tanks in quantity. Even so, it take s LOT of airlift capacity to transport such heavy stuff.
-> Same for adding airlift and removing pillage to scouts and explorers: I'll add this
Some players are going to SCREAM with the removal of their favorite explorer-pillaging tactics.
-> I don't agree with giving 2 food to bananas
T'was based on frustration in my first Rhy'es game (as Rome) settling to get spice in the Carribean.
-> I agree with removing rubber for modern paratroopers
-> How do volcanos work with such a small period? Isn't annoying in the beginning?
6000 years only assures that they will erupt at least once during the Whole Game. I am sure that Mt. Vesuvius erupting was quite annoying to the Sicilians any time it blew. And what of those TWO luxuries next to it that might get lost.
-> Disappearance ratios may alter history. What if Rome had no legions? I think that's a good feature for random maps only. But I see that you apply it only to luxury resources.
You missed it (just before the Lux chart)!
I also set the strat resources disappearances to C3C stock. Compared to standard epic games, you have provided a great excess of resources. BTW, luxury resources do NOT relocate (didn't in PTW, anyway) -- once they "disappear" they do not REappear!! Forces more entertainment expenditures.Also, in italics at the beginning of the document: "All generic units have been made available in addition to Unique Units. Scouts available to all civs."
The Scouts are a new thing, I got many techs before I finally triggered barbs (Rome, mil/comm). Rome without Iron would have been the same as anyone without Swords.
-> I've never tried to build the spaceship; was it too easy? (considering that you've raised cost of some components)
And delayed the actual ship (exterior casing) to Integrated Defense! Yes, the SS comes too early for one who wants extensive modern-era play. Stock it is for those who want an easy win (unless they are playing Emporer+, no offense intended)!
-> Modern armor cost = 160. Why?
Those puppies are expensive in production, maintenance, training, and fuel! Also, they are a very strong offensive unit (note tanks increased to 120 shields). I have raised the cost of many modern units.
-> I'd like to hear other people's opinions on guerrilla. I'm not sure about it.
The -1HP for guerrillas is new for me.
-> It seems that there's a mistake in my settings. Cavalry and cossacks need saltpeter and riflemen don't. I must choose if giving to all or removing to all
Primarily, all it takes to make explosives is some basic fertilizer compounds (bat guano, anyone?)
-> Ignore desert movement cost must be added, as desert cost was raised
I presume you are referring to the keshik and shifta.
-> standard civ traits were decided in order to fill all the combinations instead of giving priorities to history. I corrected their mistakes with a look at the gameplay (see Iroquois problem). It's strange that you put the originals back
The Iroquois problem!! You have virtually castrated them (but not as much as the Babylonians and Sumerians, in my small experience).
In the interest of trying to make the AI stronger, I have applied some aspects of the Apolyton University mod (at poly, of course). With few exceptions, every civ has Workers, Air, Production and Trade as "build often." Geography restricts the Asian and American civs badly enough; your "build never's" were way TOO historically oriented, and seemed to me to be quite biased without benefit of having been there in their time periods. Sure, I do not remember having been there/then either, but some of them had bustling encomonies.
->There are still lots of changes to discuss, but testing here is more important than discussing. Anyway, there's something good for a 2.15 and for adding your name to the list!
Please, test away! I just started a new game and my last Rhye's took only 120 hours!
-> By the way, please vote the poll if you haven't!
You know, that top one, that has gotten most of the tallies ... one is mine.
In that plateau/mtn complex in the mid-western Sahara, I have seen a barb camp come into being. Your standard sedentary barbs, I am sure (in R2.1).Originally posted by Rhye
A camp appeared in the Sahara??
It is probably a simple issue of "sedentary" definition having changed without it being documented.
Mad Robin McMad
Chieftain
Ignore this post, my wretched modem disconnected whilst trying to up load the file.
And then I realised later I could have attactched it again, oh well.
And then I realised later I could have attactched it again, oh well.
Mad Robin McMad
Chieftain
Heres the save game it's ~1.65 Mb in total, (so I've had to split in 2) and I used to winace to compress it, so if it downloads as attatchment, it'll need a .ace extension. It's this size 'cos I added two extra units, so I've included 'em, anyway I've pretty much documented any changes in the readme.txt.
Hope this helps.
The barbarian camp is in pretty much the same place Jaybe mentions, the western mountains in the mid Sahara, next to the english mech infantry, you can't miss it.
Here's part 1
Hope this helps.
The barbarian camp is in pretty much the same place Jaybe mentions, the western mountains in the mid Sahara, next to the english mech infantry, you can't miss it.
Here's part 1
Mad Robin McMad
Chieftain
Here's part 2
You can also check out the remenants of a barbarian stack o' doom in the northern part south america
Oh, and I'll admit to cheating slightly in that playing as the romans I moved the volcano near their starting point (Vesuvius I presume) down a square so my capital wouldn't get all toasted.
You can also check out the remenants of a barbarian stack o' doom in the northern part south america
Oh, and I'll admit to cheating slightly in that playing as the romans I moved the volcano near their starting point (Vesuvius I presume) down a square so my capital wouldn't get all toasted.
Eddiit
King of Nothing
The sumerians have been pretty hampered but it is historically correct. They never actually left sumeria.
I personally like how historically accurate the game is though I do beleieve if the Incas and sich had survived to modern day they would have a navy and airforce so Im not really sure where I stand on all that.
Im all for units costing resources. As you said there is an abindance of strategic resources so trading for them really shouldnt be a problem.
I personally like how historically accurate the game is though I do beleieve if the Incas and sich had survived to modern day they would have a navy and airforce so Im not really sure where I stand on all that.
Im all for units costing resources. As you said there is an abindance of strategic resources so trading for them really shouldnt be a problem.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
Noticed something really strange.
Despite frequent opportunities, the computer never discovered the lower American civs. I know this for sure because I had embassies with all of them and I checked. Mostly because I continued my practice of betrayal and wondered why no one cared.
Is this an implementation thing, or just a freaky thingy. And I know that they should have been able to find them, because I saw them sail really nearby, but for some reason there was no communication between them. This despite the many other realworld maps where they have found one another in that same situation.
Also, VERY easy to dominate the world as America. Horses are unneccessary (got them from Mongolia for Iron once I started to feel the need for Cavalry). Brits were extremely powerful, but Spanish did well for themselves also.
France got tooled. Plain and simple. It was dePresSing.
Noticed that MANY civs are prevented from reaching the modern age, and was disturbed by this.
Biggest problem was that Japan does not reach it (or perhaps it does, but not in a timely manner).
This may be a stupid question, but do the flavor clips on tech affect humans?
Iroquois are castrated. No other word for what you have done to them. I think even a human player on chieftan would find them a difficult play.
Why do the Azores have a forest on them? They were a famous portugese city, and besides, without one there it is terribly easy to just build an airfield on it and wipe out the Iberians (and the Brits) from something that they simply cannot deal with.
Germans tried to start a WW, but found themselves butchered.
I implemented the Monroe Doctrine and learned them Europeans good. Currently the strongest nations are: USA, Spain, Arabia, and Brits (not for long, as they are turns away from becoming Airstrip 1 ;p)
******
Changes you should make (IMHO):
Guerrillas need to be taken out of the normal offensive unit upgrade path and changed into non-wheeled weak units with 8(4).8.2 no required resources, and given to the crippled civs. This will balance things later on and give them the ability to strike back against the colonial powers.
To replace them, that new gun infantry unit you added should be changed to the same stats as a Guerrilla and placed in its (the Guerrilla's) old spot. Where it is it is basically less than relevant, as you pass it in like a second. I did not even bother to upgrade through it.
Less civs (period). Do not move them around and create freaky non-realistic situations. Just chop em. Everyone knows that Sumeria is not really worth including, and that the Byzantines are a ridiculous addition with the Ottomans, Romans, AND Greeks all there. The game becomes crowded with these whiny ****** civs with no strength.
Rome needs to be uncrippled. Italy was a (relatively) major power in the modern era, and crippling them is simply weird. (Or maybe they just are not moving very quickly in research... but then again, they are not even ahead of Ethiopia, and the Dutch and Portugese are doing wayyy better).
Research costs need to be tweaked (not sure about for other civs, but I know that I can make the 8 turn minimum for science at a 20% budget with America).
******
Despite frequent opportunities, the computer never discovered the lower American civs. I know this for sure because I had embassies with all of them and I checked. Mostly because I continued my practice of betrayal and wondered why no one cared.
Is this an implementation thing, or just a freaky thingy. And I know that they should have been able to find them, because I saw them sail really nearby, but for some reason there was no communication between them. This despite the many other realworld maps where they have found one another in that same situation.
Also, VERY easy to dominate the world as America. Horses are unneccessary (got them from Mongolia for Iron once I started to feel the need for Cavalry). Brits were extremely powerful, but Spanish did well for themselves also.
France got tooled. Plain and simple. It was dePresSing.
Noticed that MANY civs are prevented from reaching the modern age, and was disturbed by this.
Biggest problem was that Japan does not reach it (or perhaps it does, but not in a timely manner).
This may be a stupid question, but do the flavor clips on tech affect humans?
Iroquois are castrated. No other word for what you have done to them. I think even a human player on chieftan would find them a difficult play.
Why do the Azores have a forest on them? They were a famous portugese city, and besides, without one there it is terribly easy to just build an airfield on it and wipe out the Iberians (and the Brits) from something that they simply cannot deal with.
Germans tried to start a WW, but found themselves butchered.
I implemented the Monroe Doctrine and learned them Europeans good. Currently the strongest nations are: USA, Spain, Arabia, and Brits (not for long, as they are turns away from becoming Airstrip 1 ;p)
******
Changes you should make (IMHO):
Guerrillas need to be taken out of the normal offensive unit upgrade path and changed into non-wheeled weak units with 8(4).8.2 no required resources, and given to the crippled civs. This will balance things later on and give them the ability to strike back against the colonial powers.
To replace them, that new gun infantry unit you added should be changed to the same stats as a Guerrilla and placed in its (the Guerrilla's) old spot. Where it is it is basically less than relevant, as you pass it in like a second. I did not even bother to upgrade through it.
Less civs (period). Do not move them around and create freaky non-realistic situations. Just chop em. Everyone knows that Sumeria is not really worth including, and that the Byzantines are a ridiculous addition with the Ottomans, Romans, AND Greeks all there. The game becomes crowded with these whiny ****** civs with no strength.
Rome needs to be uncrippled. Italy was a (relatively) major power in the modern era, and crippling them is simply weird. (Or maybe they just are not moving very quickly in research... but then again, they are not even ahead of Ethiopia, and the Dutch and Portugese are doing wayyy better).
Research costs need to be tweaked (not sure about for other civs, but I know that I can make the 8 turn minimum for science at a 20% budget with America).
******
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
Oh, and I forgot to mention that I had at least three barbarian uprisings, and saw several camps spawn. I am not sure if I reset the barb settings, but they sure as hell did not act sedentary with me.
I think you should seriously reconsider taking away the combat bonus against barbs, as they are really just annoyingly strong without it.
I think you should seriously reconsider taking away the combat bonus against barbs, as they are really just annoyingly strong without it.
Eddiit
King of Nothing
Well on that note I like having all civs represented. In most games Ive played the weaker civs do eventually fall (sumeria,babylon) but they did fall in real life so it fits.
Rome hasnt been too crippled in games Ive played ....theyre usually ery powerful early on and slowly wane as modern age approaches.
And about the Byzantines... I love playing as them and quickly wiping out the ottomans....fun stuff.
Rome hasnt been too crippled in games Ive played ....theyre usually ery powerful early on and slowly wane as modern age approaches.
And about the Byzantines... I love playing as them and quickly wiping out the ottomans....fun stuff.
Aeon, regarding your Rome comment: how about Carthage?! They have no terrain on which to build a decent commercial empire, and their challenge to Rome is what started Rome on the way to Imperium.
I have no problem with the barb uprisings as they are, but I have always played with zero combat advantage against them. In the later game they still do not move much unless you tease them with a nearby, vulnerable target (road, worker or comparable-strength unit), and most of their camps are in inaccessible areas anyway. ... non-civ indigenous populations who want to be LEFT ALONE!
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