RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

[Valkrionn]

It might be possible to do something with a spell that requires the Held promotion that transforms the Phylactery Guard after they are placed. I'll see what I can do.

Keeping this in mind, if you change the Mana Guardians to using a leach instead of the Held promotion, please add a new promotion, Mana Guardian. It doesn't have to do anything, just mark the unit as being one.

Planning on it.

I'd prefer to move the leash system into XML, but until I do that I'll stick a dummy promo on them. I'm thinking a leash of 1 tile would work best.

 

[Schwarzbart]

It might be possible to do something with a spell that requires the Held promotion that transforms the Phylactery Guard after they are placed. I'll see what I can do.

Keeping this in mind, if you change the Mana Guardians to using a leach instead of the Held promotion, please add a new promotion, Mana Guardian. It doesn't have to do anything, just mark the unit as being one.

That would be Amazing if you as the orginal Autor of this Module would port ist to RiFE

 

[Cyrusfan]

Jheral, the way I suggest allowing special towns that give xp boosts pretty much means that you have training facilities of some kind already built so that's really just to save some time on training. Also, if it's not possible to have improvements upgrade to different things, my idea could also be implemented directly through the event system (you'd see a lot fewer special towns that way, probably). None of that's anything I have my heart set on, I just think giving bonuses to all surrounding improvements of a given type is going to be overpowered.

 

[Vorpal+5]

I would like to know if this is possible to have a terrain which can be entered both by a land and naval unit? This would be very handy to have continents linked together while allowing ships to move everywhere (I'm thinking of the AI mainly here, anything which can help it is good)

 

[Jheral]

Jheral, the way I suggest allowing special towns that give xp boosts pretty much means that you have training facilities of some kind already built so that's really just to save some time on training.

Ah, right. Yeah, that doesn't sound that bad, I guess. I was mainly thinking about the effects of stacking those bonuses (the effects it could have on the Sidar, in particular), but I guess with limited numbers of these upgraded towns, it wouldn't really be a problem.

I just think giving bonuses to all surrounding improvements of a given type is going to be overpowered.

Yeah, I suppose so, it most likely would be OP. I just liked the idea; it would make them useful (even powerful), and distinct from other improvements, while at the same time encourage you to use the others, as well.

 

[smithroadtrip]

Cyrusfan, I see your point about needing to re-balance certain things if towns can't be adjacent. I completely agree. For one thing, they should probably generate much more gold. An extra +2, or perhaps outright doubling the +4 to a +8 would be in order. However, I definitely think if this system were implemented, that towns should require some amount of space in between them. Let me explain my reasoning.

What is a city in civ 4? A large collection of people who work the nearby area (the fat cross), and who exert their influence over an ever larger area (all the cultural area surrounding the city).

What is an improvement? Some sort of man-made (sometimes not man-made in the form of unique features) feature which improves the output of the land. Farms allow the land to produce more food, mines allow the land to produce more metals and stone which can be used for building things.

Towns though, stand out as seeming different. Unlike other improvements, like a city, a town also represents a large collection of people. Not as many people as a city, but many nevertheless. A town, which takes many turns to reach, probably has almost the population of a size 1 city.

Yet in civ 4, as in RifE, towns are just money making improvements. I could surround all 20 workable squares of a city with towns in this game. Yet, you would never see so many cities so close to each other, not even size one cities.

This idea would help more accurately represent how towns and cities work. Cities represent the center of government for a certain area. Not everyone lives in the city, but it is the center of government that controls how the surrounding lands are used. Towns, with this system, would act more like smaller population centers rather then just places where money is minted.

A farming town, which improves surrounding farms, represents a town where there is much knowledge on how to farm. Where farmers can come together and share ideas about weather, and crops, and animals ect. The effect is very local. Only the surrounding farms are effected.

Not all towns would act like this though. Take the university town for example. It represents a town where knowledge is highly valued. Perhaps it is the site where a famous university is located. As such, the bonus is not so local. An increase in the research of the nearest city. It could also have a significantly smaller research increase in the entire country in which it is located. This would be because the population on average is capable of learning more, and learning faster, when there are many universities in the country.

Similar lines of thought could be used to explain many different types of towns.



Jheral, your post has several things which have given me food for thought. I would rather what the town evolves into be semi-random. Perhaps use the great person system. Except different things would give your towns specialty town points (STP)

Say, a ST took 200 STP to evolve. The Amurites gain 5 wizard town points per turn just for being the Amurites. The town is also next to 2 farms and 1 mine, giving them 2 farming town STP and 1 mining town STP per turn. After 25 turns, the town evolves into a specialty town. It has a 5/8 chance of becoming a wizard town, a 2/8 chance in becoming a farming town, and a 1/8 chance in becoming a mining town.

The player would be able to somewhat control what the town becomes, while the town still evolves randomly. I think doing this has a few advantages over choosing what the town becomes via ability or spell.

Number 1, as nutranurse mentions, we want the AI to be able to use this system. If a town becomes a farming town primarily because there are farms around it, the AI will get the extra food even if it wasn't trying to get a farming town. The same goes for the other town types.

Number 2, it prevents certain types of bonuses, such as xp gain, from being stacked and becoming overpowered. Players would definitely build 4 wizard towns around 1 city, and have that city produce the entirety of the country's arcane force. An xp bonus, or any other type of bonus, can much more easily become overpowered if it is stacked then by itself.



Cyrusfan, to your most recent post where you say and I quote

I just think giving bonuses to all surrounding improvements of a given type is going to be overpowered.

I have several comments.

Number 1, if we give the bonuses to everyone, and if we make the other types of bonuses like the wizard town strong enough, then I don't think it would be overpowered.

The university town could have a bonus of +1000% beaker generation in the nearest city. To all who have a basic understanding of the mechanics of civ 4, this is better then +1 food to all surrounding farms. Likewise, if the bonus was +1% beaker generation in the nearest city, it would be obvious that it is worse then +1 food to all surrounding farms.

The trick here is to find the middle ground where the bonuses are about equal. Where you have to ask yourself which type of specialty town you would rather get.


To anyone who actually read all this wall of text, I congratulate you. Feel proud knowing you have at least 10,000 hp, since that's what I crit for.

 

[Jheral]

What is a city in civ 4? A large collection of people who work the nearby area (the fat cross), and who exert their influence over an ever larger area (all the cultural area surrounding the city).

...

Towns though, stand out as seeming different. Unlike other improvements, like a city, a town also represents a large collection of people. Not as many people as a city, but many nevertheless. A town, which takes many turns to reach, probably has almost the population of a size 1 city.

...

This idea would help more accurately represent how towns and cities work. Cities represent the center of government for a certain area. Not everyone lives in the city, but it is the center of government that controls how the surrounding lands are used. Towns, with this system, would act more like smaller population centers rather then just places where money is minted.

I like your thinking, and I agree; it makes much more sense than them just giving (the bonus I saw as a bit of the same kind of thinking; more people giving a larger workforce, allowing you to build more, but this works out even better). I don't think the bonus from the town itself should go much higher than it is, though.

Jheral, your post has several things which have given me food for thought. I would rather what the town evolves into be semi-random. Perhaps use the great person system. Except different things would give your towns specialty town points (STP)

I suppose there is logic in that, yes; that sort of natural growth of the town would make more sense. I guess I just instinctively recoil from randomness, control freak that I am.

By the way, a bit of a random thought: if these are going to be mini-cities; should they all, perhaps, generate culture/territory control (on their own, that is; not in the cities they are attached to)?

 

[smithroadtrip]

By the way, a bit of a random thought: if these are going to be mini-cities; should they all, perhaps, generate culture/territory control (on their own, that is; not in the cities they are attached to)?

Sure, that sounds cool. Over time, they could spread your culture over the surrounding 8 squares, and maybe even the fat cross. Anything more then that though probably gets to big for a town which is at most the size of a size 1 city.

 

[Valkrionn]

To be perfectly honest, I dislike the idea. It's too complex, and for (in my opinion) little gain.

I like some of the improvement ideas, but would instead use them as unique improvements for certain civilizations.... University Town for the Dural, for example.

As for town culture... Technically, they already have it. They just don't apply it to a plot. If you set an improvement to produce culture, but with a range of -1, then on mouse over it will read "Bannor Town", for example. Currently, Enclaves produce one ring of culture, as do (I think) Bedouin Villages.

 

[smithroadtrip]

Yeah, I kind of figured the answer would be no. If you do end up implementing any of these ideas partially though, such as university town, it will be nice to have helped contribute.

 

[odalrick]

What if any plot adjacent to a Town got +1? It would get rid of the different, random effect micromanagement hell and retain the role of Towns as improvements.

 

[ExMachina]

Ok, here's my take on this "specialized town" idea:

• I agree the BtS implementation of cottage improvements doesn't make a lot of sense flavor-wise (people in houses = commerce?).
• Some of these ideas for improvement bonuses culture:, , XP, points) look interesting, though they might be hell to code for.

However, I can imagine this idea being a nightmare to play with for several reasons:

• It's extremely complicated. Especially the bit about having to earn points to upgrade a town a certain way.
• The randomness factor of which type of town pops up basically fulfills the same function as the resource popping mechanic. Having certain resources/towns pop up can make you change your plans for how you want to specialize a city (I once had a production city that popped several commerce resources within its BFC, so I converted it to a commerce city). And this can be fun. Except this particular case would involve a lot of new code for the modders to create, and a lot of new game mechanics for players to figure out.

As I see it, developing a city's tiles with improvements works like this:

1. You look at the available terrain and resources to decide what type of city would work best in this spot (and while considering the particular needs of your empire).
2. You build improvements to harvest resources, and you may build some food improvements to make sure you can sustain enough of a population to work all the tiles (farms if there's fresh water, pastures if you want a little production, wineries if you want a little commerce). You then build improvements that support the specialty you've chosen for the city:
   • For a GP farm city, you build lots of farms (and windmills/pastures/wineries where you can't build farms).
   • For a production city, you build lots of mines and workshops (probably along with pastures and farms to offset the food penalty, and maybe some quarries).
   • For a commerce city, you build whatever gives you lots of commerce.

RifE's multitude of buildable improvements allow more flexibility in city specialization (especially with the addition of + improvements that don't require irrigation, and + improvements that don't cause your city to starve), but they don't really change this model.

Cottages with hammers only make non-resource plantations and quarries look like crap. Cottages with hammers that then upgrade into randomly specialized towns would make plantations/quarries look like crap AND make city specialization more random and confusing. I don't see how this would have a positive effect on gameplay.

I suspect any attempt to make the town improvements more "town-like" would collide head-on with the process of city development I outlined above. As much as the flavor irritates me, cottage improvements in BtS serve a vital function: they limit commerce early on while expanding it as the game progresses. This allows late-game cities to generate enough commerce to pay the increasing maintenance and tech costs, while at the same time keeping early-game tech progression from getting out of hand. The demand for commerce works differently from the demand for food or production, so commerce improvements work differently from food/production improvements.

This is why RifE is moving to combine plantations/wineries into a single +1 +1 improvement, and the cottage line will go back to being the primary commerce improvement.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well said.

 

[smithroadtrip]

Yes, I'll concede you this point as well. Those are some very good reasons against this system.

 

[Kraydak]

To be perfectly honest, I dislike the idea. It's too complex, and for (in my opinion) little gain.

I like some of the improvement ideas, but would instead use them as unique improvements for certain civilizations.... University Town for the Dural, for example.

As for town culture... Technically, they already have it. They just don't apply it to a plot. If you set an improvement to produce culture, but with a range of -1, then on mouse over it will read "Bannor Town", for example. Currently, Enclaves produce one ring of culture, as do (I think) Bedouin Villages.

At a minimum, I think the town growth timescale will need to be adjusted, and adjusted somewhat dynamically: 40 odd turns early game is a very different thing than 40 turns late game. I would suggest something like all (cottages, dwarven mines, pirate bays, forts etc...) growing improvements getting:
+20% growth rate/adjacent friendly improvement. This means that the fort out in the middle of nowhere will grow very slowly, but the fort surrounded by a friendly work force will grow rapidly.
+10% growth rate/nearby city population. Bigger cities should develop faster.
Maybe some buildings would have an effect as well. The numbers might need to be significantly bigger, mind.

I still think that even then there isn't really room for both towns and mills if the towns are just commerce improvements. I would like (conceptually at least) towns discovering "artificial" resources, based on available resources/city buildings/techs. A town next to a friendly pasture w/animal husbandry could then discover "fine cheese", +1 food w/town.

Adding a full set of happiness/health resources might be overkill given how many are already in game, but as just production bonuses it shouldn't pose any problems. On the other hand, as just production bonuses the mill/town difference becomes minimized, while as the sole route to a range of bonuses, towns gain their own incentive.

If you give cottage/hamlet/village/towns a .25/.5/.75/1*normal base chance of discovering a resource, checking for each adjacent friendly improvement then they will discover resources reasonably rapidly. Towns could even go through multiple bonus resources as one goes up through the tech tree, allowing them to keep any arbitrary productivity pace. So a farm could let a cottage discover "beer, +1 food" at agriculture which would upgrade to "beer and spirits, +1 food/+1 commerce" at alchemy.

 

[scutarii]

I CAN handle animals and barbs, but AI can't: it is not fun to play when 3 civs are dead by turn75 - normal speed, tectonics, small map 9 civs. All they were victims of barbs, of course. all those " more barb/animal" options disabled.Immortal diff.

 

[nutranurse]

An earlier post mentions that in the upcoming patch there'll be a time limit placed on some of the main perpetrators of early civ death. Also, play custom games and turn off animal invasion. It's on by default I believe.

 

[Wodan]

Cottage/Town improvements are not just "people in houses". A town in a mini city, complete with shops, farmer's markets, vendors, and craftsmen.

The situation where a "suburb" is simply a bunch of houses occurs in real life, so I can see how people might associate that to RifE, but even there we have at least some businesses, grocery stores and such. But the only reason the businesses are limited in real life is that we have mass and long distance transportation (cars, buses, light rail). In RifE such do not exist, so the more appropriate analogue is a small rural town (not a suburb) or go back in time 200 years. In 1700, both independent town as well as suburbs (what there were) truly had just about everything you could find in a city.

So I guess I'm saying the Town=commerce model doesn't bother me all that much.

 

[ExMachina]

At a minimum, I think the town growth timescale will need to be adjusted, and adjusted somewhat dynamically: 40 odd turns early game is a very different thing than 40 turns late game. I would suggest something like all (cottages, dwarven mines, pirate bays, forts etc...) growing improvements getting:
+20% growth rate/adjacent friendly improvement. This means that the fort out in the middle of nowhere will grow very slowly, but the fort surrounded by a friendly work force will grow rapidly.
+10% growth rate/nearby city population. Bigger cities should develop faster.
Maybe some buildings would have an effect as well. The numbers might need to be significantly bigger, mind.

That's not the implementation I would go with, but I agree on there being boosts to the cottage/etc. upgrade times as the game goes along. I was thinking on bonuses to upgrade speed being attached to certain technologies. I think there will probably be a civic that speeds up the upgrades, at the very least.

Cottage/Town improvements are not just "people in houses". A town in a mini city, complete with shops, farmer's markets, vendors, and craftsmen.

The situation where a "suburb" is simply a bunch of houses occurs in real life, so I can see how people might associate that to RifE, but even there we have at least some businesses, grocery stores and such. But the only reason the businesses are limited in real life is that we have mass and long distance transportation (cars, buses, light rail). In RifE such do not exist, so the more appropriate analogue is a small rural town (not a suburb) or go back in time 200 years. In 1700, both independent town as well as suburbs (what there were) truly had just about everything you could find in a city.

So I guess I'm saying the Town=commerce model doesn't bother me all that much.

That's a good point.

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, given some of Grey Fox's work with the Field Marshals, expect a few traits to boost specific improvement growth rates.

So Merchant could (won't, as it would be pointless; Only leaders with Merchant can build them anyway) make Bedouin improvements grow faster.