[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Sagax]

I don't think it would and never implied it neither. I was asking why Firaxis has not implemented more than one unique version of each district. A unique district is better than a unique tile improvement gameplay wise and yet a lot of the civs have been getting unique tile improvements because again Firaxis has for some strange reason decided against implementing more than one unique version of a district.

In bold - why? I see no clear correlation between unique district and "better gameplay". Does Street Carnival improve Brazil's gameplay? Hardly, at least in my book.

I think I should clarify my point: I'm not against them adding more unique districts - all power to Firaxis if they can pull this off. I just think this will not by itself solve the issues that make you guys wish for more unique districts.

 

[God of Kings]

They have also added unique units that replace the same units, for example Rome, Macedon and Kongo have replacements for the swordsman. They are all different from each other and are relevant for each civilization. It would be very interesting to see different versions of the same district and it has been lacking so far especially insofar that the games primary idea was unstacking the cities and providing districts instead of building everything in the city center.

Same.

For example, let me use Canada and the Ottomans again. The Canadian unique commercial hub could do a culture bomb, while the Ottoman unique commercial hub could include an amenity boost.

 

[Wingednosering]

We don't have enough data to say for sure that there is only one unique version of each district. It certainly seems that way, but as has been stated, the UBs used to seem unique as well. Most of the vanilla civ's UIs are atrocious. UIs are best when (as Sagax said) they go on top of a tile that is usually useless. The Kampung and Polders are always going to be useful for this very reason. Any chance the Incan terrace farms could somehow go on mountain tiles? That would be interesting.

The vanilla tile improvements attempted to give us unique yields (only UIs provide gold, faith, culture or science, for instance) but that doesn't remove your reliance on food and production, which they are actively preventing you from getting. The stepwell is probably the worst tile improvement since it's basically just a farm, but screws up your farm triangulation, making all nearby farms worse.

Next worst is probably the Sphinx. It's a stupid idea to begin with, but Egypt already has a boost to Wonder and District production on floodplains AND with their start bias, floodplains are probably their best tiles for food. Basically their bonuses just mean there are never enough floodplain tiles to go around.

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I think the unique commercial hub is pretty obviously a Bazaar (people have been calling that for ages), but it could be either the Ottomans or Mali. If the Ottomans get it, then it decreases the chances of the Mali ever coming to Civ VI imo.

The unique Encampment I assume is going to the Zulu, just like everybody else. I don't see a unique Aerodome coming into play, but I've been wrong before.

 

[God of Kings]

With the release of Chandragupta, it would be a perfect opportunity to buff the Stepwell.

 

[DWilson]

The UIs can actually be quite useful in my experience, but they generally end up being replaced later on. For example, the step well is actually pretty good early on, but should be dumped late game. So they have an added opportunity cost of extra builders.

 

[God of Kings]

It would be neat to improve the timeline.

Here's one story written by @Aussie_Lurker: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-rise-of-poland.624849/

That story is very well written and could be used as a basis for an improved timeline.

 

[Prima Italia]

In bold - why? I see no clear correlation between unique district and "better gameplay". Does Street Carnival improve Brazil's gameplay? Hardly, at least in my book.

I think I should clarify my point: I'm not against them adding more unique districts - all power to Firaxis if they can pull this off. I just think this will not by itself solve the issues that make you guys wish for more unique districts.

The key to the game is to maximize your yields especially, production, gold and science. To generate the yields districts are employed. This was a major departure from previous titles whereby every building was in the city center. Planning your city to maximize the yields is one of the core tenets of gameplay in Civ 6 because they dictate the yields and can provide even more based on adjacency. Having an advantage in this area is worth much more than any other. Districts also have to be built first so they provide the longest and often biggest bonuses. When civs have a bonuses which synergies with these mechanics they have objective advantages. For example:

Germany is not one of, if not the best, civ in the game because of the U-boat or the Leader ability. It is because of the Hansa and the fact that Germany can build another district above what the population cap allows.

Japan is one of the best civs in the game because they get more district ajacency bonuses. The Divine Wind Leader ability, Samurai, and Electronics Factory are just icing on top and extra. It is mostly about the ability synergies with the mechanics of playing the game properly.

 

[God of Kings]

The key to the game is to maximize your yields especially, production, gold and science. To generate the yields districts are employed. This was a major departure from previous titles whereby every building was in the city center. Planning your city to maximize the yields is one of the core tenets of gameplay in Civ 6 because they dictate the yields and can provide even more based on adjacency. Having an advantage in this area is worth much more than any other. Districts also have to be built first so they provide the longest and often biggest bonuses. When civs have a bonuses which synergies with these mechanics they have objective advantages. For example:

Germany is not one of, if not the best, civ in the game because of the U-boat or the Leader ability. It is because of the Hansa and the fact that Germany can build another district above what the population cap allows.

Japan is one of the best civs in the game because they get more district ajacency bonuses. The Divine Wind Leader ability, Samurai, and Electronics Factory are just icing on top and extra. It is mostly about the ability synergies with the mechanics of playing the game properly.

A civ is as strong as all of its uniques.

A civ with a single OP unique and the rest being completely lacklustre is in all a weak, but situational, civ at best.

 

[Lord Xavius]

So if Georgia is in Rise and Fall, what would its unique infrastructure be?

 

[Sagax]

The key to the game is to maximize your yields especially, production, gold and science. To generate the yields districts are employed. This was a major departure from previous titles whereby every building was in the city center. Planning your city to maximize the yields is one of the core tenets of gameplay in Civ 6 because they dictate the yields and can provide even more based on adjacency. Having an advantage in this area is worth much more than any other. Districts also have to be built first so they provide the longest and often biggest bonuses. When civs have a bonuses which synergies with these mechanics they have objective advantages.

And yet we barely build Industrial districts nowadays, unless it's Germany - the hammers you invest into the district simply don't pay off. Mines and chopping all the way. Australia and Indonesia can definitely live without the industrial districts, that's how strong their improvements are. And they are prime examples how you can achieve the same yield/gameplay results without having unique districts (Australia may be even way too good with it, given their LUA and CUA).

Germany is not one of, if not the best, civ in the game because of the U-boat or the Leader ability. It is because of the Hansa and the fact that Germany can build another district above what the population cap allows.

Japan is one of the best civs in the game because they get more district ajacency bonuses. The Divine Wind Leader ability, Samurai, and Electronics Factory are just icing on top and extra. It is mostly about the ability synergies with the mechanics of playing the game properly.

Germany lost quite some power ever since they nerfed the stacking effect of Industrial zones. Are we sure about Japan......? Last time I checked, the more hardcore players rank Japan below average.

God of Kings makes a good point above - unique districts don't carry the games by themselves, and we certainly shouldn't further increase the disparity between district and improvement power levels.

 

[Prima Italia]

A civ is as strong as all of its uniques.

A civ with a single OP unique and the rest being completely lacklustre is in all a weak, but situational, civ at best.

To an extent. It depends on where the bonuses are distributed with core systems or not. Having strong bonuses across the board like Macedon is optimal but some civs can rely on just one strong aspect. For example if Germany lost the U-boat it would make hardly any difference to play or its strength as a civ. Germany would still be one of the best civs in the game. If Germany had the Free Imperial Cities bonus removed then it would make a far bigger impact since that is a core system.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So if Georgia is in Rise and Fall, what would its unique infrastructure be?

Svan Towers unique improvement. Gives Faith in dark ages and culture in golden ages.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

We don't have enough data to say for sure that there is only one unique version of each district. It certainly seems that way, but as has been stated, the UBs used to seem unique as well. Most of the vanilla civ's UIs are atrocious. UIs are best when (as Sagax said) they go on top of a tile that is usually useless. The Kampung and Polders are always going to be useful for this very reason. Any chance the Incan terrace farms could somehow go on mountain tiles? That would be interesting.

The vanilla tile improvements attempted to give us unique yields (only UIs provide gold, faith, culture or science, for instance) but that doesn't remove your reliance on food and production, which they are actively preventing you from getting. The stepwell is probably the worst tile improvement since it's basically just a farm, but screws up your farm triangulation, making all nearby farms worse.

Next worst is probably the Sphinx. It's a stupid idea to begin with, but Egypt already has a boost to Wonder and District production on floodplains AND with their start bias, floodplains are probably their best tiles for food. Basically their bonuses just mean there are never enough floodplain tiles to go around.

==========================================================================

I think the unique commercial hub is pretty obviously a Bazaar (people have been calling that for ages), but it could be either the Ottomans or Mali. If the Ottomans get it, then it decreases the chances of the Mali ever coming to Civ VI imo.

The unique Encampment I assume is going to the Zulu, just like everybody else. I don't see a unique Aerodome coming into play, but I've been wrong before.

Mali has alot of options I think. If the Bazaar goes to the Ottomans, which makes the most sense, Mali could get an early bank replacement (treasury) or a shrine replacement (mud mosque). The mud mosque could even be an improvement that provides science as well as faith.

 

[agonistes]

I enjoy playing with unique improvements. I wish there were more of them. Granada's is the shiz bang.

 

[UWHabs]

Svan Towers unique improvement. Gives Faith in dark ages and culture in golden ages.

That would be a neat bonus.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Svan Towers unique improvement. Gives Faith in dark ages and culture in golden ages.

Additionally it would be nice for some bonuses for mountain adjacency for these UI's and/or for the Georgian UA something related to mountains.

 

[Duckfromstatefarm]

I am pretty sure the next first look is going to be the Cree and if it was to follow the path like Christmas, it's first look is going to also be on Wednesday. For the remaining 4, I'm going to take a guess it'll be the Incans since we need someone other than Brazil in South America. Georgia since Tamar may be the leader that can play the ages well.

The Third one if I wanted a Classical era civ I'm going for the Celts, Palmyra, Carthage, or Gaul. Celts my pick would be Boudicca and my guess on Boudicca's Leader ability is that she could put extra Loyalty pressure on Opposing civ cities causing them more likely to revolt or flip the city into her favor. As for Gaul I would say Vercingetorix would lead it and Gaul is going to appear in Civ for the first time if they do appear in Rise and Fall. Palmyra is another new civ in the series if it shows up, it's leader Zenobia will fit Rise and Fall. Carthage not too sure who the leader would be and not too sure if Dido could fit in Rise and fall's theme.

and the last leader, tough choice, I'd say it's most likely the Ottomans since they are heavily requested but I'm open to anything on the last civ.

 

[Zaarin]

Celts my pick would be Boudicca

We already know Boudicca is still a Great General, thank God.

 

[Duckfromstatefarm]

We already know Boudicca is still a Great General, thank God.

Well I guess not this expansion, maybe another expansion in the future, she does fit the mechanics of Rise and Fall though.

 

[Zaarin]

Well I guess not this expansion, maybe another expansion in the future, she does fit the mechanics of Rise and Fall though.

To date the Civ franchise's depictions of Boudicca make Catherine de Medici co-ruling Macedon with Gandhi look like an inspired civ design, so I for one am not sad to lose her.