[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[ferretbacon]

What civs were changed?
Egypt
Sumeria
America
Brazil
more? ...

Indirect change for:
France

Brazil
Gains Copacabana UD that replaces the Water Park. This is in addition to the Street Carnival.

Spain
Treasure Fleets: The Mission improvement now adds +2 Loyalty per turn to a city if built adjacent to the City Center of a city not on your original capital's continent.

Sumeria
Adventures With Enkidu: Added "Alliances gain Alliance Points for being at war with a common foe."

Egypt
Mediterranean's Bride: Added "Trading with Allies earns twice as many bonus Alliance Points."

America
Founding Fathers is totally revamped. Now it reads "All Diplomatic policy slots in the current government are converted to Wildcard slots."

 

[God of Kings]

Sumeria
Adventures With Enkidu: Added "Alliances gain Alliance Points for being at war with a common foe."

Now it's more useful in multiplayer.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Well, it's finally Tuesday (at least for us, earlypeans). Just seven more hours and we'll finally get our... hints to deduce the next civ (I hope it'll be the Mapuches/Incas/Blurry-leader-with-headbang-or-something, because Zulu and Scotland would be really to easy to guess...)

 

[Morningcalm]

I sincerely hope Greece got more abilities too--arguably one of the most boring civs in Civ VI currently. And weak, especially in light of Poland and America getting their own versions of wildcard slots. And in light of Tamar's envoy bonus.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I sincerely hope Greece got more abilities too--arguably one of the most boring civs in Civ VI currently. And weak, especially in light of Poland and America getting their own versions of wildcard slots. And in light of Tamar's envoy bonus.

Having UD is quite strong itself. However, I agree Greece needs something.

 

[leandrombraz]

I sincerely hope Greece got more abilities too--arguably one of the most boring civs in Civ VI currently. And weak, especially in light of Poland and America getting their own versions of wildcard slots. And in light of Tamar's envoy bonus.

I think Greece's ability is better than America because it's an extra slot, while America don't get any extra, only converted. Most governments have only 1 diplomatic slot, the exception is Autocracy that have 0 and Democracy that have 2. It's an advantage to have a more flexible slot for when you need it but if you run 1 diplomatic card like Charismatic leader, which I usually do, most of the time you won't be getting anything from America's ability, unless you get another slot somehow (Democracy, wonder). Poland is better because it convert the worse type of slot for the best and its ability do more than just convert the slot (Encampment's culture bomb) but still, it's no extra slot. Greece ability still quite unique compared to other Civs that get wild slots.

I enjoyed playing as Greece because of the UD. UDs are powerful by nature because of the reduced cost, mostly if you plan to spam the district in every city and the requirement/adjacency changed the way I settle and develop the cities, which imo make it fun, I like abilities that force me to play in a different way. I got a map that didn't have a lot of hills so it was quite a challenge to find spots with a hill adjacent to the city center. It give less envoys than Georgia but it doesn't lock you into one strategy (get a religion, spread it to reach CS) and the UD is better overhaul than the faith bonus for protectorate war, which is a bit trick to trigger.

 

[K4wa]

Guys, are there any Georgia preview Let's Plays? I couldn't find any, everyone is obsessed over the Cree.

 

[Guandao]

Guys, are there any Georgia preview Let's Plays? I couldn't find any, everyone is obsessed over the Cree.

Quill18 is playing as Georgia right now in his livestream on Twitch.

 

[ferretbacon]

Guys, are there any Georgia preview Let's Plays? I couldn't find any, everyone is obsessed over the Cree.

Quill18 is livesteaming Georgia right this moment.

'd

 

[liv]

He was quite careless there and he had no idea how the system worked. If he hadn't razed that city, he wouldn't lose the first he conquered to loyalty, at least not into he got to the dark age, which he would need to be mindful about. The loyalty system add an extra challenge to warmongering, you will definitely need to proceed with care, blind conquering like that will end badly, mostly when a dark age hit.

In Quill's mongol play through it happened as well. He lost the city he captured very quickly
I think the loyalty flipping will hamper expanding through war quite a bit. On higher difficulties it will be hard to be first to a lot of things so your era score will be low and you may end up in a dark age very quickly.

 

[Morningcalm]

I think Greece's ability is better than America because it's an extra slot, while America don't get any extra, only converted. Most governments have only 1 diplomatic slot, the exception is Autocracy that have 0 and Democracy that have 2. It's an advantage to have a more flexible slot for when you need it but if you run 1 diplomatic card like Charismatic leader, which I usually do, most of the time you won't be getting anything from America's ability, unless you get another slot somehow (Democracy, wonder). Poland is better because it convert the worse type of slot for the best and its ability do more than just convert the slot (Encampment's culture bomb) but still, it's no extra slot. Greece ability still quite unique compared to other Civs that get wild slots.

I enjoyed playing as Greece because of the UD. UDs are powerful by nature because of the reduced cost, mostly if you plan to spam the district in every city and the requirement/adjacency changed the way I settle and develop the cities, which imo make it fun, I like abilities that force me to play in a different way. I got a map that didn't have a lot of hills so it was quite a challenge to find spots with a hill adjacent to the city center. It give less envoys than Georgia but it doesn't lock you into one strategy (get a religion, spread it to reach CS) and the UD is better overhaul than the faith bonus for protectorate war, which is a bit trick to trigger.

The cultural UD is arguably the least useful of all, so I don't consider it very powerful, especially since it *has* to be built on hills (it would be better if it got bonus adjacency from hills but wasn't required).

The hoplite isn't flexible or interesting.

The unique wildcard slot is the only other bonus Greece gets, and that's primarily why it's disappointing. Many other civs, like the Khmer, Poland or Japan, have a cocktail of bonuses to Greece's one. Also America and Poland's wildcard bonuses weaken the power of Greece's just by virtue of existing--it's hardly unique to have a wildcard slot if others have one too (albeit converted from others). I disagree that America and Poland wildcard bonuses are necessarily weaker--they open more options than Greece's single wildcard, even if Greece will always be +1 policy card ahead.

The acropolis envoy bonuses are relatively meaningless since you only get one for each completed acropolis and also they can be undone by spies easily.

I maintain that Greece is inflexible and weak, possessed of fewer bonuses than other civs. Pericles' leader bonus is particularly weak early game even though he was an ancient era leader IRL.

Well due for Rise and Fall changes, especially in light of other civs getting new bonuses.

 

[Kimiimaro]

I almost forgot - sixteen days, guys.

 

[liv]

Watched a lifestream in French (Bill Silverlight) and in his first try as the Cree he lost one of his cities due to loyalty just because it was settled more than 9 squares away and Gilgamesh planted a city between his new city and the capital.
(He then declared war on Gilgamesh and then after a few turns quit and restarted LOL)

 

[DeutschDachs]

Watched a lifestream in French (Bill Silverlight) and in his first try as the Cree he lost one of his cities due to loyalty just because it was settled more than 9 squares away and Gilgamesh planted a city between his new city and the capital.
(He then declared war on Gilgamesh and then after a few turns quit and restarted LOL)

How long did it take from the time he founded it to the time it rebelled?

 

[Lord Lakely]

Greece are an excellent Civ to buff once the World Congress/Diplo victory is added to the game. And I don't think they're weak either. Hill starting bias is pretty great, as is getting culture from kills.

 

[Morningcalm]

Greece are an excellent Civ to buff once the World Congress/Diplo victory is added to the game. And I don't think they're weak either. Hill starting bias is pretty great, as is getting culture from kills.

The hill starting bias isn't a civ or leader ability. Greece doesn't get culture from kills, Gorgo does.

I do agree Greece could use some diplomatic bonuses (well, at least Pericles due to the Delian League, but Gorgo travelled with her husband as an emissary of sorts to other areas of Greece too so I guess both could get a diplomatic bonus of some sort).

I just want to point out how strange it isn't that Greece doesn't get tourism bonuses given their huge contribution to famous art, wonders and sculpture (in the classical era and via influence in Rome's heyday and the Italian Renaissance).

 

[liv]

it was a fair bit later - probably over 30 turns. He was playing on quick. I will go back and check later

How long did it take from the time he founded it to the time it rebelled?

 

[UWHabs]

The hill starting bias isn't a civ or leader ability. Greece doesn't get culture from kills, Gorgo does.

I do agree Greece could use some diplomatic bonuses (well, at least Pericles due to the Delian League, but Gorgo travelled with her husband as an emissary of sorts to other areas of Greece too so I guess both could get a diplomatic bonus of some sort).

I just want to point out how strange it isn't that Greece doesn't get tourism bonuses given their huge contribution to famous art, wonders and sculpture (in the classical era and via influence in Rome's heyday and the Italian Renaissance).

If anyone should have a bonus for building ancient and classical wonders, feels like it should be Greece.

 

[pgm123]

If anyone should have a bonus for building ancient and classical wonders, feels like it should be Greece.

My feeling is that this has more to do with the specific wonders chosen for the game. If Great Canal was a wonder and Oracle wasn't, it would fit Qin better.

 

[Morningcalm]

Agreed. But while China has many cultural wonders, they are hardly known for them in comparison to Egypt or Greece. Even in the recent board game based on Civ VI, Egypt is given the "Monument Builders" ability (not Iteru from Civ VI or Bride of the Mediterranean).