[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Zaarin]

To be fair the more you went east, the more war elephants kept popping up in the armies.

Curse those varu.

 

[God of Kings]

It would be interesting to place each of the new leaders we know so far into something like the D&D alignment chart.

I can see Shaka, Chandragupta, and Genghis Khan being evil, given that they're warmongers. Poundmaker may end up being Lawful Good, given how much he values lasting alliances.

 

[Leyrann]

It would be interesting to place each of the new leaders we know so far into something like the D&D alignment chart.

I can see Shaka, Chandragupta, and Genghis Khan being evil, given that they're warmongers. Poundmaker may end up being Lawful Good, given how much he values lasting alliances.

Where do we put Mvemba, Pedro and Qin Shi Huang?

 

[God of Kings]

Where do we put Mvemba, Pedro and Qin Shi Huang?

I meant for R&F leaders; vanilla leaders would have a different set.

 

[Kimiimaro]

@God of Kings, Wilhelmina clearly has to be somewhere in the Good part

 

[Siptah]

@God of Kings, Wilhelmina clearly has to be somewhere in the Good part

Lawful neutral. Or even Chaotic neutral.
Tamar is probably chaotic as well.

 

[King William I]

Lawful Good - Robert the Bruce
Neutral Good - Wilhelmina
Chaotic Good - Tamar
Lawful Neutral - Poundmaker
True Neutral - Seonduk
Chaotic Neutral -
Lawful Evil - Chandragupta
Neutral Evil - Genghis Khan
Chaotic Evil - Shaka

 

[Zaarin]

Nonsense. Wilhelmina is Lawful Adorable.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Considering he failed to conquer India because his troops refused to go any farther...

Ah, but that was a failure of Morale, not of Supply. According to D. W. Engel's Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army (1978, U. of California Press) he was supplying over 62,000 men in India without major problems in keeping them and their horses fed, and even supplying replacement armor and equipment. I suspect having 'liberated' several hundred tons of gold from the Persian Treasury helped: when you can pay in good hard coin a lot of local people will be more than happy to supply you...

 

[Krajzen]

Nonsense. Wilhelmina is Lawful Adorable.

You made a typo, should be Victoria

 

[Zaarin]

You made a typo, should be Victoria

No, she's definitely chaotic evil. And ugly. And has major clipping in her animations. The tantrum she throws when she denounces you is kind of cute, though.

 

[Victoria]

No, she's definitely chaotic evil

One suspect that behaviour is chaotic good, one clearly was not understand what she was feeling at the time is all. As for ugly, One is now denounced you you you fiend!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

No, she's definitely chaotic evil. And ugly. And has major clipping in her animations. The tantrum she throws when she denounces you is kind of cute, though.

She subtly says she will be the only major empire in the world eventually when you meet her. And I think her denouncement seems very chaotic.

 

[Krajzen]

My vision of alignment chart:

Lawful good - Jadwiga, Gandhi
Neutral good - Pedro, Perycles, Gilgamesh, Pondmaker,
Chaotic good - Teddy, Tamar, Tomyris

Lawful neutral - Qin, Salah ud Din, Victoria
True neutral - Mvemba, Tokimune
Chaotic neutral - Cleopatra

Lawful evil - Philip, Chandragupta, Gorgo, Genghis
Neutral evil - Catherine, Harald, Alexander
Chaotic evil - Shaka, Moctezuma

Explanations

Lawful good - Jadwiga, Gandhi*

Jadwiga is young girl saint, most innocent character in the game
Gandhi is obvious with his moral philosophy, and go away nuke meme, I loathe it even more after realizing it overshadows IRL Gandhi's serious teachings.

Neutral good - Pedro, Gilgamesh, Perycles, Poundmaker

Those guys are either progressives or friendly and loyal, without "sanctity" of lawful good. Perycles maybe would be lawful good if not my memory of slavery and misogyny of ancient Athens

Chaotic good - Teddy, Tamar, Tomyris

Teddy is amazing as chaotic good character, crazy badass but also very sympathetic. Tomyris is prety much the archetype of "honorable barbarian".

Lawful neutral - Qin, Salah ud Din, Victoria

They want to strengthen their civilisations by following legal framework, but that legality may be occasionally unpleasant to their enemies.

True neutral - Mvemba, Tokimune

They just want to be left alone, maybe except merchants and missionaries.

Chaotic neutral - Cleopatra

Scheming, flirting wild card, with both personal and country agenda in mind.

Lawful evil - Philip, Chandragupta, Genghis Khan

Philip is man following laws and conventions but also somewhat arrogant and definitely fanatic and warlike. Chandragupta wants to create law and order by beating all nearby weaklings. Genghis somewhat respects law, order, loyalty and diplomacy, and then horribly murders those who do not and ravages their people.

Neutral evil - Catherine, Harald, Alexander

Those are egotic jerks. Catherine will betray anyone to get power for herself and maaaybe her realm, Harald is brute warrior, Alexander loves war for the sake of "glory".

Chaotic evil - Shaka, Moctezuma

They simply want war for the sake of war. Strong tramples weak, war is lulz, bloodshed is glorious, gods are pleased.

Gitarja, Jayavarman, Robert and somehow Traian I feel I know not enough about to rate.

 

[clapyourhands]

Lawful Good: John Curtin
Neutral Good: Teddy Roosevelt
Chaotic Good: Gilgamesh
Lawful Neutral: Jadwiga
True Neutral: Trajan
Chaotic Neutral: Catherine de Medici
Lawful Evil: Gorgo
Neutral Evil: Alexander the Great
Chaotic Evil: Cyrus the Great

The Devil Incarnate: Gandhi
The Devil Incarnate's Advisor: Pedro

 

[Morningcalm]

Ah, but that was a failure of Morale, not of Supply. According to D. W. Engel's Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army (1978, U. of California Press) he was supplying over 62,000 men in India without major problems in keeping them and their horses fed, and even supplying replacement armor and equipment. I suspect having 'liberated' several hundred tons of gold from the Persian Treasury helped: when you can pay in good hard coin a lot of local people will be more than happy to supply you...

The irony is Alex never gets war weariness on his cities...historically inaccurate and potentially game breaking. Also makes Macedonia a one-trick (military) pony, which was the worst aspect of some Civ V Civ designs (though Civ VI is now having a problem of bland civs that merely have different combos of tiny resource bonuses in certain unmemorable circumstances).

I would hope that future changes to existing Civ VI civs also give the one-trick pony civs more avenues to other victory options as well.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The irony is Alex never gets war weariness on his cities...historically inaccurate and potentially game breaking. Also makes Macedonia a one-trick (military) pony, which was the worst aspect of some Civ V Civ designs (though Civ VI is now having a problem of bland civs that merely have different combos of tiny resource bonuses in certain unmemorable circumstances).

I would hope that future changes to existing Civ VI civs also give the one-trick pony civs more avenues to other victory options as well.

Civ VI's reduction of Alexander to 'merely' a Military Presence totally misses most of his historical influence. Yes, he provided a model for military conquest that others attempted to follow (Jason of Thessaly, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Napoleon, among others) but he also spread Greek culture and cultural influences all the way to the borders of India, founded cities that persist to this day in places never since associated with Greece or Macedon (Kandahar, originally 'Iskandera' in Afghanistan, for instance).

I would be tempted to give him some kind of special non-military aspect, like whenever he conquers a city he can immediately reduce its population by 1, form a Settler and found a new city - that would begin to show his influence on the settlement patterns from the Bosporus to India...

 

[Zaarin]

Neutral good - Pedro

The real guy, maybe. Civ6's Dom Pedro is the incarnation of Satan and clearly belongs in the Chaotic Evil camp.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The AI can barely handle 1 UPT and now you want it to handle attrition and supply logistics? Oy vey!

Actually quite the opposite. 1UPT is hard for AI, but easy for human players (because navigating terrain is one the things human brain is optimized for). Additional systems which don't rely on map that much would make it more difficult for human players (the more things we need we keep in mind, the less effective we are), but will not present any difficulties for the AI as it doesn't have such limitation.

But that's the reason why things like this will not be implemented - the goal of the game is to make it fun for human players.

 

[Depravo]

Civ VI's reduction of Alexander to 'merely' a Military Presence totally misses most of his historical influence. Yes, he provided a model for military conquest that others attempted to follow (Jason of Thessaly, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Napoleon, among others) but he also spread Greek culture and cultural influences all the way to the borders of India, founded cities that persist to this day in places never since associated with Greece or Macedon (Kandahar, originally 'Iskandera' in Afghanistan, for instance).

But he did it by conquest Even his attempts to merge Greek and Persian culture were ham-handed, as far as the record allows us to see. It's a miracle his empire survived his death in any number of pieces.