[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Boris Gudenuf]

But he did it by conquest Even his attempts to merge Greek and Persian culture were ham-handed, as far as the record allows us to see. It's a miracle his empire survived his death in any number of pieces.

And I would say, "doing it by conquest" as Alexander did became the Model for a host of others throughout subsequent history. Whether that's a good or bad thing is historically irrelevant (or, more accurately, it's goodness of badness depends on which end of the Conquest Stick you are on). Alexander made no attempts to merge Greek and Persian Culture, he made attempts to merge Greek and Persian people into a Ruling Class from which he could draft governors and satraps and others needed to run his empire. The cultural fusion happened more as a result of a massive influx of Greeks into the Middle East as a result of his conquests, which in turn resulted in the spread of Greek philosophical thinking throughout. So much so, that you can write books on the influence of Greek Cynic and Stoic philosophy on early Christianity - Greek influences in thinking that permeated Palestine and the areas around it 300 years after Alexander's death.

His Empire, of course, did not survive his death. But the Idea of his empire survived in the form of the Diadochi or Successors of Alexander, who formed Macedonian/Greek/Persian/Egyptian/Bactrian states and empires lasting in some cases a century or more after his death as political/military entities. The influence of his conquests in culture was indirect but more lasting, and the influence of his city founding and siting lasts to the present day in those cities, even though none of them show the slightest Macedonian or Greek physical or cultural influences any more.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Eleven days.

I hope that we'll see hints for the mysterious leader with headband tomorrow.

 

[h0nk0815]

Eleven days.

I hope that we'll see hints for the mysterious leader with headband tomorrow.

Then we would know all civs today. Wouldn't it be good to leave some room for further speculation? Well we know more in lese than two hours. I have browser tabs with wiki articles for Mapuche, Inka, Polynesia and Zulu prepared.

 

[DeepKing]

I too hope to see a hint for the mysterious leader today. I think Firaxis would try to leave Zulu for the "surprise final civ", only for it to have been already revealed.

 

[DWilson]

Since the odds are pretty even, my coin flip suggests Firaxis will save the Zulu for last.

 

[agonistes]

It would be interesting to place each of the new leaders we know so far into something like the D&D alignment chart.

I can see Shaka, Chandragupta, and Genghis Khan being evil, given that they're warmongers. Poundmaker may end up being Lawful Good, given how much he values lasting alliances.

Shaka is not even in the game yet, and you are already judging him.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I too hope to see a hint for the mysterious leader today. I think Firaxis would try to leave Zulu for the "surprise final civ", only for it to have been already revealed.

I'd assume they know that the zulu are "out there"

 

[WillowBrook]

I have browser tabs with wiki articles for Mapuche, Inka, Polynesia and Zulu prepared.

A sign of a true civ fanatic.

 

[agonistes]

A sign of a true civ fanatic.

I have bookmarks for naming things... list of Russian cities, Russian rivers, map of Canada...

 

[Jewelrunna]

Civ VI's reduction of Alexander to 'merely' a Military Presence totally misses most of his historical influence. Yes, he provided a model for military conquest that others attempted to follow (Jason of Thessaly, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Napoleon, among others) but he also spread Greek culture and cultural influences all the way to the borders of India, founded cities that persist to this day in places never since associated with Greece or Macedon (Kandahar, originally 'Iskandera' in Afghanistan, for instance).

I would be tempted to give him some kind of special non-military aspect, like whenever he conquers a city he can immediately reduce its population by 1, form a Settler and found a new city - that would begin to show his influence on the settlement patterns from the Bosporus to India...

Did they really reduce him to just that though? They wanted to make an extremely aggressive Civ that boosts its own science & culture through that aggressive play. I think they executed that fairly well in its design.

 

[DWilson]

So, the final roster is:

1. Seondeok - Korea
2. Wilhelmina - The Netherlands
3. Genghis Khan - Mongolia
4. Poundmaker - The Cree
5. Chandragupta - India
6. Tamar - Georgia
7. Robert the Bruce - Scotland
8. Lautaro - Mapuche
9. Shaka - Zulu

If the next expansion has a similar pattern, we would see two more (East/SE) Asian civs (maybe unlikely), two more European civs, two more Native American (1 North, 1 South, with Central America possibly swapping for either of those), one new African civ, one Middle Eastern/Caucaucus/Asian(other) civ, and a new leader for a civ with a less than exciting existing option (France, Egypt).

 

[Uberfrog]

If the next expansion has a similar pattern, we would see two more (East/SE) Asian civs (maybe unlikely), two more European civs, two more Native American (1 North, 1 South, with Central America possibly swapping for either of those), one new African civ, one Middle Eastern/Caucaucus/Asian(other) civ, and a new leader for a civ with a less than exciting existing option (France, Egypt).

I don't see it being the same pattern - East Asia got two civs this time around because Korea and Mongolia are series staples. They're running out of options there now - I expect at most one new civ from southeast Asia (it'd be nice to get Vietnam). Instead I think the focus would need to shift back to the Middle East, who completely missed out on Rise & Fall. We need to see at least two civs there, the Ottomans and then it'd be good to see Babylon or Assyria return.

You can always bet on a couple of European civs, but if there's only one expansion left, they've got a lot of fan favourites to fill in - Portugal and the Byzantines, to be precise. I would love to see another native North American civ and a couple of interesting African civs, but there are going to be some regions (and some big players) that will miss out.

 

[Guandao]

I don't think we'll only have a second expansion after R&F. There has to be a couple of DLC between R&F's release and the release of the potential 2nd expansion.

Still, I'll be sad if Mali and Ethiopia don't reappear in Civ6 since their "slots" apparently got taken by Nubia and Kongo. West Africa feels especially devoid of Civs at this point. But maybe Nubia/or Kongo took Morocco's "slot". Morocco seems less likely than Mali and Ethiopia to return. Mali has a better chance of replacing Songhai as the Saharan Empire Civ (plus the Khmer returned from Civ4). Ethiopia has appeared in Civ4 and Civ5. Morocco only appeared in Civ5.
But I expect many of the Civs who have appeared in the series since Civ3 to return (ex: Inca, Maya, Ottomans, Byzantines, Portugal, Carthage, maybe even a Classical Celt Civ), along with the mainstay Babylon.

 

[UWHabs]

I don't see it being the same pattern - East Asia got two civs this time around because Korea and Mongolia are series staples. They're running out of options there now - I expect at most one new civ from southeast Asia (it'd be nice to get Vietnam). Instead I think the focus would need to shift back to the Middle East, who completely missed out on Rise & Fall. We need to see at least two civs there, the Ottomans and then it'd be good to see Babylon or Assyria return.

You can always bet on a couple of European civs, but if there's only one expansion left, they've got a lot of fan favourites to fill in - Portugal and the Byzantines, to be precise. I would love to see another native North American civ and a couple of interesting African civs, but there are going to be some regions (and some big players) that will miss out.

I think we'll see a similar mix in terms of returning civs/new civs (4 returning, 4 new this time), and I do think they'll make sure they come from a variety of geographies, but yeah, I wouldn't expect the exact same balance. My way too early ballpark of the next expansion would be, assuming no one-off DLC before then:
returning: Ottoman/Byzantine, Mali/Ethiopia, Inca/Maya, Babylon/Carthage
New: SE Asia civ (Vietnam?), NAmerica civ (Canada? PNW Native tribe?), European (Czech/Moravia/Hungary?), Wildcard (probably someone I've never heard of)

That would be a decent mix of old and new, mostly filling in gaps on the map as they stand now.

 

[Eramas]

I don't think we'll only have a second expansion after R&F. There has to be a couple of DLC between R&F's release and the release of the potential 2nd expansion.

With the faster release of R&F I think that we might actually see 3 expansions (and no DLCs between them) for Civ VI.

 

[Guandao]

With the faster release of R&F I think that we might actually see 3 expansions (and no DLCs between them) for Civ VI.

I would totally be ok with a third expansion for Civ6. I hoped Civ5 would get a third, but alas, it's wasn't to be.

 

[drubell]

If I recall the Zulu was a late reveal for BNW in Civ 5 as well

 

[Guandao]

If I recall the Zulu was a late reveal for BNW in Civ 5 as well

The Zulu were revealed around the same time as Portugal (there was a "guess the shadow of the leader" game for Shaka and Maria), but before the "leak" of the Shoshone and Venice.

 

[Uberfrog]

I think we'll see a similar mix in terms of returning civs/new civs (4 returning, 4 new this time), and I do think they'll make sure they come from a variety of geographies, but yeah, I wouldn't expect the exact same balance. My way too early ballpark of the next expansion would be, assuming no one-off DLC before then:
returning: Ottoman/Byzantine, Mali/Ethiopia, Inca/Maya, Babylon/Carthage
New: SE Asia civ (Vietnam?), NAmerica civ (Canada? PNW Native tribe?), European (Czech/Moravia/Hungary?), Wildcard (probably someone I've never heard of)

That would be a decent mix of old and new, mostly filling in gaps on the map as they stand now.

I would love a Pacific Northwest Civ, but there will be riots if one gets in over either the Maya or the Inca.

And if Firaxis adds Canada at the expense of any of those staples...

 

[Kimiimaro]

Ten days!