Rise and Fall of House Julii

Need an opinion on the following:
Tactics
In order to improve tactics I was thinking of giving Slingers the invisible and ZOC traits. This would allow ambush simulation.

Archers can be given stealth attach against foot units with movement point values of 1.

Skirmishers can be given stealth attack against all units except mounted units.

Lite cavalry can be given radar and recon flags.

Give me your thoughts.
 
I need a leaderhead for Hannibal Barkas.

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Need an opinion on the following:
Tactics
In order to improve tactics I was thinking of giving Slingers the invisible and ZOC traits. This would allow ambush simulation.

Archers can be given stealth attach against foot units with movement point values of 1.

Skirmishers can be given stealth attack against all units except mounted units.

Lite cavalry can be given radar and recon flags.

Give me your thoughts.

I would try almost the opposite. Slingers I have tried out being great in stealth mode, with little offense and def.bombard. Both skirmishers and slingers have move 2, so they can run away if met by strong force. Skrimishers will be also replacement for you if you can´t get horses. They move around fast and look for enemy strong forces.
Having slingers coming in attacking a group of enemy units having the chance to pick off the "injured" offensive unit, not bothering about any defensive spearmen gives a nice touch IMHO. I then upgrade slingers over the years with among others crossbowmen and later anti-tank units (bazookas, RPGs). They have almost the same stuff bringing in the last killing blow to units set-up for the killing.

Skirmishers (peltast,velites,javelineers) can have a stronger punch than slingers, but not as strong as regulöar infantry of course. The speed and movement are their strength. Remember that in some (can´t remember which) battles in this time a Peltast only army crushed a hoplite army somewhere in Greece, if I´m not totally wrong.
That says that skirmishers should be stronger than slingers IMHO.
Also many skirmishers did have some shields to have strongers defense than slingers.

Getting into the invincible part, I say I never liked it. The AI almost always favours this type of units and having a lot of invincible troops running around doesn´t look nice.

Lite cavalry is right on with radar flags and recon.

Archer is much more difficult, and I see that you thought of them as I thought of slingers. However archers in that time could be very strong when used with volleys. So perhaps as artillery, if one could get the AI to use them correctly. Naturally they should have ZOC.
In a fact I do think archers have the battlefield uses as light artillery, so perhaps move +1 and bombard. Not stealth since they just fire volleys into groups of units.
Looking at most movies (I know hm) archers are always open ups heavy volley to surpress the enemy before the actual hand-to-hand combat begins. I would try getting them in Civ to do the same.
It provides the AI and human with an artillery if they can´t make one heavier (lacking resources or what). Also the archer should be able to move faster with the main army and dragging behind on roads. Artillery should be forced to use only roads if possible but then be much more powerful than archers in bombard.

Hope you get it right, as I believe you will

Looking forward to this very much.
 
clamel, yes, you described pretty correctly what we talked about with Guardian few days ago. The only issue here - AI doesn't use artillery (read a description of the artillery in the Help to the Civ Editor - saying "artillery" I mean units made according to the description). Just a reminder for Guardian.
 
clamel, yes, you described pretty correctly what we talked about with Guardian few days ago. The only issue here - AI doesn't use artillery (read a description of the artillery in the Help to the Civ Editor - saying "artillery" I mean units made according to the description). Just a reminder for Guardian.

Exactly Wolf, I was thinking of the discussion we were having and I still haven't decided what to do about the artillery ( catapults, siege archers, ballista, and onagers). I am thinking of leaving them as strictly siege units. In the case of an ambush or surprise attack, these weapons would be pretty useless due to the amount of time it would take to set them up to fire in the field. The only exception would be those units set up in defensive position such as those in cities, on walls or in towers.

Peltest and skirmishers were often used in conjunction with cavalry. The Balearic and Rhodean slingers were actually better, more effective, than most archer units.

The archer units in the scenario are primarily setup as defensive units. Do you think, that I should change their offensive stats and give them a greater offensive capability?
 
Exactly Wolf, I was thinking of the discussion we were having and I still haven't decided what to do about the artillery ( catapults, siege archers, ballista, and onagers). I am thinking of leaving them as strictly siege units. In the case of an ambush or surprise attack, these weapons would be pretty useless due to the amount of time it would take to set them up to fire in the field. The only exception would be those units set up in defensive position such as those in cities, on walls or in towers.

Peltest and skirmishers were often used in conjunction with cavalry. The Balearic and Rhodean slingers were actually better, more effective, than most archer units.

The archer units in the scenario are primarily setup as defensive units. Do you think, that I should change their offensive stats and give them a greater offensive capability?

I stand to agree with you Sirs.
Artillery are indeed poorly handed by the AI, which is truly sad. Many have tried different variations and have mixed results. In your case with this scenario you are spot on. Whatever was used as artillery in those times was probably strictly used as siege weapons. The Legions never dragged around huge catapult, but I as I understand even built them on the spot outside the city.
Using catapult in the open can of course create havoc, but in in the way modern artillery could today.
Yes archer should stay more defensive than offensive, like on city defense they probably stand back an shower the attackers with arrows. This has been debated for a long time I understand.
I also read that slingers in attacking "outscored" archer in many ways. Even in distance to my knowledge. This is why I suggested to use them with stealth, and not shadow soldiers not seen. Perhaps mix a little blitz into this mixture with skirmishers and slingers, but stay out of invisible IMHO.
Make skirmishers and slingers strong in different ways to attack and run away, and some defensive bombard. Abovce all make them fast moving.
Test around and I´m sure you get the correct formula.


PS Hm my bad english made me mentioning slingers as invincible instead of invisible in the previous post. Sorry for that it looked stranged (invincible slingers, ha). Hopefully you understood correctly.
 
Need an opinion on the following:
Tactics
In order to improve tactics I was thinking of giving Slingers the invisible and ZOC traits. This would allow ambush simulation.

I agree with others that invisible is a bad idea. Plus the AI can see invisible units so doesn't work for the human player.

Archers can be given stealth attach against foot units with movement point values of 1.

Skirmishers can be given stealth attack against all units except mounted units.

Lite cavalry can be given radar and recon flags.

Give me your thoughts.

:goodjob:
 
After review and study I agree with you all that slingers will have stealth and not invisible with movement at 2 and blitz capable. Stealth will apply to all units except archers, slingers, skirmishers and mounted units (except elephants).

I am going to increase the archers Offensive stat slightly and keep the defensive stat higher than the offensive stat movement will remain as 1.

Skirmishers will have equal offense and defense stats higher than both archers and slingers, 2 movement points, a higher HP bonus (probably 2) and blitz. Should skirmishers also have stealth?

Light cav will have 3 movement, radar and recon, stealth against archers, and slingers and of course blitz.


If this sounds good let me know. If anyone has an alternate or additional suggestion let hear that too.


BTW here is the civilopedia entry for the slingers:

Spoiler :
The best slingers, without any doubt, are those of the Balearic Islands, which lie far away off the Eastern coast of Iberia. It is said that their children are not permitted food until they are able to hit it with a sling, which provides an incentive to become proficient quickly. These slingers can be found in the Balearic Islands of course, but there are also some Balearics who live in mainland Iberia, Sardinia and Sicily. On a par with the Balearics are the Rhodians, who are just as good as their counterparts in the Western Mediterranean. They have saved Greek armies from the Persians numerous times. They can be found on the island of Rhodes, and occasionally in the other regions thereabouts.

These two slinging peoples are happy to offer their slinging skills in service to foreign leaders just as much as local ones- for a price. The other peoples who can employ slingers in their line of battle are: the Britons (naturally- we are the only people who can recruit them from a large town level range, everyone else has to wait until minor city level), the Spaniards, the Numidians, the Carthaginians, the Egyptians, and the Parthians. All these slingers of these different nations have precisely the same skills- the same stats, the same range and the same ammunition.
 
Guardian, the way you described archers become a useless force. Let's see: slinger better in attack, skirmishers (as I understand, this means "javelineers" in terms of Sandris units) better in defense and offense + archer will be slower. What is the reason to build archers?

Should skirmishers also have stealth?
If this means "javelineers", then I think no because they should be in close contact enough with the aim.
 
Guardian, the way you described archers become a useless force. Let's see: slinger better in attack, skirmishers (as I understand, this means "javelineers" in terms of Sandris units) better in defense and offense + archer will be slower. What is the reason to build archers?


If this means "javelineers", then I think no because they should be in close contact enough with the aim.

Historically, slingers are better than archers, until the advent of the English longbow. Best example, battle of Agincourt (1415 AD). Archers here will be primarily defensive units.

Skirmishers include: Skirmishers, Javelinmen, peltast. velites, and hastarti.
 
wait a moment guardian - slingers are easier to obtain but are unreliable in battle, but archers are as many as a whole army - lots of armies - and especially those modelled like the frankish heerban in eastern europe decreed that every soldier should have a bow and fourty arrows - so archers are a mass phenomenon and not specialised like the longbowmen in england. i see generally that people seem to mistake the archer with the longbowman - it is a huge difference...
also the term skirmisher is heavy induced by age of kings - skirmishers are units that participate in a skirmish and most of them are mounted infantry of many kinds.....
 
No stealth on skirmishers please ;-)
As someone mentioned the AI is very picky and might not make archers, however play with the idea of giving archers stealth against certain units. Just a (perhaps to fast) idea, but try out vs horses.

Still can´t give up ideas that something should be able to rain death on a horse unit. The horse unit (specially light cavalry) should have bad defense, but keeping them with spearmen they are protected. The stealth idea with slingers should perhaps not include horseunits, but give that extra for archers.

Image slingers "crawling" up to a basecamp it will be easier for them to pick off some other sort of foot soldiers. The archer could however let go of a rain of arrows into the horses. It could create havoc, much more than some stones flying threw the air.
 
wait a moment guardian - slingers are easier to obtain but are unreliable in battle, but archers are as many as a whole army - lots of armies - and especially those modelled like the frankish heerban in eastern europe decreed that every soldier should have a bow and fourty arrows - so archers are a mass phenomenon and not specialised like the longbowmen in england. i see generally that people seem to mistake the archer with the longbowman - it is a huge difference...

Agreeed, however, Heerban is a medieval unit generally made up of peasants. 1300AD to 1500AD.

also the term skirmisher is heavy induced by age of kings - skirmishers are units that participate in a skirmish and most of them are mounted infantry of many kinds.....

Wow, seems like I struck a nerve, :lol: actually I love it. Nothing like a good discussion.

OK there is a place for archers, especially mounted archers and especially in Asia minor (Assyria, Babylon, Troy, Persia, Media, Egypt and even Judea ). The Assyrian horse Archers were legendary and were used as shock troops and Skirmishers.

It is true, with the exception of the Bealeric and Rhodian slingers, Greek historians often didn't even mention them in their battle accounts. Consequently I have given the Bealeric and Rhodian slingers better stats than other slingers 3/(3)/3/2 and 1HP, all others are 3/(3)/2/2 and 0HP. early archers are presently 2/(4)/4/1 and 0HP which varies depending on the best information I could find regarding how each civ used archers. Horse archers have stronger attack of 6, ZOC, and I've added radar. Horse units are immune to stealth attack.

Spoiler :

In ancient and medieval warfare, skirmishers typically carried bows, javelins, slings, and sometimes carried light shields. Acting as light infantry with their light arms and minimal armour, they could run ahead of the main battle line, release a volley of arrows, slingshots or javelins, and retreat behind their main battle line before the clash of the opposing main forces. The aims of skirmishing were to disrupt enemy formations by causing casualties before the main battle, and to tempt the opposing infantry into attacking prematurely, throwing their organization into disarray. Skirmishers could also be effectively used to surround opposing soldiers in the absence of friendly cavalry.
Once preliminary skirmishing was over, skirmishers participated in the main battle by shooting into the enemy formation, or joined in melée combat with daggers or short swords. Alternatively, they could act as ammunition bearers or stretcher-bearers.

Due to their mobility, skirmishers were also valuable for reconnaissance, especially in wooded or urban areas. During the gunpowder era, a skirmish line could discover the extent of the enemy front line.


In classical Greece, skirmishers had low status. For example, Herodotus, in his account of the Battle of Plataea of 479 BC, mentions that the Spartans fielded 35,000 light armed helots to 5,000 hoplites yet there is no mention of them in his account of the fighting.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-Greek_Warfare_p61-0 Often Greek historians ignored them altogether.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-Greek_Warfare_p61-0 It was far cheaper to equip oneself as light armed as opposed to a fully armed hoplite – indeed it was not uncommon for light armed to go into battle equipped with stones.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-1 Hence the low status of skirmishers reflected the low status of the poorer sections of society who made up skirmishers.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-Greek_Warfare_p65-2 Additionally, "hit and run" contradicted the Greek ideal of heroism. Plato gives the skirmisher a voice to advocate "flight without shame," but only to denounce it as an inversion of decent values.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-3 Nevertheless, skirmishers chalked up significant victories, such as the Athenian defeat at the hands of the Aetolian javelin men in 426 BC and, in the same war, the Athenian victory of Sphacteria.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-Greek_Warfare_p65-2
Celts did not, in general, favour ranged weapons. The exceptions tended not to include the use of skirmishers. The Britons used the sling extensively, but for siege warfare, not skirmishing. Among the Gauls likewise, the bow was employed when defending a fixed position.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-5 The Celtic lack of skirmishers cost them dearly during the Gallic Invasion of Greece of 279 BC, where they found themselves helpless in the face of Aetolian skirmishing tactics.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-6
In the Punic Wars, despite the Roman and Carthaginian armies' different organizations, skimishers had the same role in both: to screen the main armies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirmisher#cite_note-7
 
No stealth on skirmishers please ;-)
As someone mentioned the AI is very picky and might not make archers, however play with the idea of giving archers stealth against certain units. Just a (perhaps to fast) idea, but try out vs horses.

Still can´t give up ideas that something should be able to rain death on a horse unit. The horse unit (specially light cavalry) should have bad defense, but keeping them with spearmen they are protected. The stealth idea with slingers should perhaps not include horseunits, but give that extra for archers.

Image slingers "crawling" up to a basecamp it will be easier for them to pick off some other sort of foot soldiers. The archer could however let go of a rain of arrows into the horses. It could create havoc, much more than some stones flying threw the air.
Mounted units are immune to stealth attack.
No stealth on skirmishers please? OK. ;)
 
Have you thought on the effect on having some of these lighter units getting the Hidden Nationality flag ??
Not sure how it will make it on land, but with the Privateer it´s kind of cool. The AI likes to send those away on the High Seas, but it might disrupt normal unit creation.

Give it a thought .... after all seeing a group of "goat"-men hiding in the forrest armed with slings. Who knows who they belong too ???

This also gives way for having larger archer-units and skirmishers (peltast,velites), but just these odd slingers popping up creating havoc.
 
Have you thought on the effect on having some of these lighter units getting the Hidden Nationality flag ??
Not sure how it will make it on land, but with the Privateer it´s kind of cool. The AI likes to send those away on the High Seas, but it might disrupt normal unit creation.

Give it a thought .... after all seeing a group of "goat"-men hiding in the forrest armed with slings. Who knows who they belong too ???

The AI knows.
This also gives way for having larger archer-units and skirmishers (peltast,velites), but just these odd slingers popping up creating havoc.
There are early archers, archers, bowmen, and siege archers.
 
clamel said:
Not sure how it will make it on land, but with the Privateer it´s kind of cool. The AI likes to send those away on the High Seas, but it might disrupt normal unit creation.
AI will throw all its power to hunt them - it reacts to the hidden nationality units almost the same way as to barbarians. The only difference (that's why almost) it won't go into other civ territory to kill HN unit. Not a good idea, IMHO.
 
AI will throw all its power to hunt them - it reacts to the hidden nationality units almost the same way as to barbarians. The only difference (that's why almost) it won't go into other civ territory to kill HN unit. Not a good idea, IMHO.

My point exactly, and I agree with Wolf. ;)
 
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