Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[Taijian]

Ok. I don't know what all the changes are, so maybe it isn't necessary. But if so.. then the pop cost of 1 is probobly the best way to do it. Till now it was only land owners that staffed the legio proper. So having them on campaign would detract some from the economy, which we could say the pop cost of 2 reflects this.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the pop cost for the legio is at 3?

 

[primordial stew]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the pop cost for the legio is at 3?

legion v1.02 cost suggested cost
===== ========== ============
legio 60 shields + 3 pop 60 shields + 3 pop
marius 120 shields + 2 pop 120 shields + 1 pop
imperial 175 shields + 3 pop 175 shields + 3 pop
merc 120 shidls + 1 pop 120 shields + 1 pop

It's just 1 idea to try to get ppl on track in the mid game. The effect should be to allow Italy to produce more Marius legions while the conquered cites focus on building improvements.


This should help to get the Servi Defecti wonder created if cities are spending more time building improvements during this time. It currently requires 8 amphitheaters, 300 shields, and a republic goverment!! Dictator Perpetus requires the trimvirate republic, and is only 12 turns after Servi Defecti is available, so... something more will have to change if anyone is ever to actually build this.

How about 4 amphitheaters, and 60 shields? Capua should be able to get this done in about 3 turns. Amphitheaters increase slave unrest, but produce a content person. Most cities won't be large enough to need this yet, so there is no other motivation to build these yet.

 

[Drendor]

legion v1.02 cost suggested cost
===== ========== ============
legio 60 shields + 3 pop 60 shields + 3 pop
marius 120 shields + 2 pop 120 shields + 1 pop
imperial 175 shields + 3 pop 175 shields + 3 pop
merc 120 shidls + 1 pop 120 shields + 1 pop

It's just 1 idea to try to get ppl on track in the mid game. The effect should be to allow Italy to produce more Marius legions while the conquered cites focus on building improvements.


This should help to get the Servi Defecti wonder created if cities are spending more time building improvements during this time. It currently requires 8 amphitheaters, 300 shields, and a republic goverment!! Dictator Perpetus requires the trimvirate republic, and is only 12 turns after Servi Defecti is available, so... something more will have to change if anyone is ever to actually build this.

How about 4 amphitheaters, and 60 shields? Capua should be able to get this done in about 3 turns. Amphitheaters increase slave unrest, but produce a content person. Most cities won't be large enough to need this yet, so there is no other motivation to build these yet.

I dont think I´d build the wonder Servi Defecti even with your suggested improvements. During my play I have come to understand the threat of slave unrest. After i built the catasta/latifundi i kept a force of 6 eques as firebrigades to fight unrest whereever it appeared. Temples and custodia urbis help alot but slave unrest is still a nasty problem. Personally I think 19 turns for 1 unit to quell unrest in hills is way too much. The legio and eques should be much better at quelling unrest.
So getting some eques (wich I consider a rather weak unit) with the Servi Defecti isnt worth it according too me. Isnt it so as well that you need to be in republic in a time when triumvirate is around the corner?

 

[pinktilapia]

I take note: Legio Marius will certainly cost less pop in next update and I will review the advantages of the wonder servi defeci (maybe make it necessary for getting Pompey).

Now, I said I would patch RFRE today. Well, I am delaying. I am going, next week whenever I find the time, to prepare a big update with a lot of new art (thanks mostly to R8XFT's Anno Domini). For one, there will be no longer any double (triple!) use of the same leaderhead. I might also redo the wonder splashes if time allow. I would love if somebody could help for these splashes(even the tech icons could be redone of somebody is willing). Those of you who are in the middle of a game, keep posting feedback so that next patch really makes a difference!

 

[Traianus]

I'll gladly help, would be honoured, in fact. Tech icons, splashes... that sort of thing. I'm only really a glorified cut n' paster but some of my results tend to be quite good!
Just tell me where to start...

 

[Taijian]

I take note: Legio Marius will certainly cost less pop in next update and I will review the advantages of the wonder servi defeci (maybe make it necessary for getting Pompey).
[....]
Those of you who are in the middle of a game, keep posting feedback so that next patch really makes a difference!

OK, then please do not weaken the Velites any further!
They have already been weakened considerably when you removed their road building ability and as things stand now, they are the *only* support free land unit the romans have in the early game - and they desperatly need them!
In my game I'm running a real deficit in 200 BC because I build too many legios, ballistas and corvus (although those were spawned...) after my first punic war when reparations were still flooding in... Velites are pretty much the only thing I still dare build and I need lots of troops because everyone else has so many...

 

[captain beaver]

just came back from my trip to Austrich
From what I have seen since I last looked at this tread, it seems to me like early unit support is the big problem. In the version I "rigged", all cities give me 1 free support, AI unit cost is higher and they have less free support and even than I'm barely in advance when comparing my curen territory with the Roman one. I'm in 72 BC and I'm about at Ceasar's territorial size. Only a dozen turn or so in advance...
And although raising free support may seem like a good idea for the early game, late game will probably see me holding all my posessions even with the barbarian invasion.

So, I though about a little solution while skying. This will probably kill Pink in the effort but hey, I'll propose anyways . The general idea is this : put a wonder in every conquerable city by the Romans which will spawn at say 200AD, 250AD, 300AD, whatever the date, a non-disbandable, immobile unit with no def and requires support.

Explication : Assuming all gov (except civil war) give Rome 1 free unit per city conquered, it will help considerably for early conquests. But the barbarian invasions will be stalled due to the high number of units Rome posess'. So, since the spawn timers do not reset when a city is conquered, at a given date, all cities within the Empire will spawn a useless unit which will eat up the free support and then the fall can begin. Of course, when those cities are lost, this cash consuming unit will be destroyed. Accordingly, when Byzance reconquers lost territories, those liberated cities will actually give again the free support, helping further the recovery made by Justinian. At the same time, putting wonders in every cities is a thing that should have been done loooooooooooong ago to stop razing-happy AIs.

So while Pink hides to save his life in front of the uber-workload this idea will require, I think improvements to this mod should be made in the general direction of an increase of Rome's early units and subsequent decrease during the early ADs crisis to be followed by another increase toward the closing of the game.
Crazy but I think that we have reached the best we could acheive with tweaking units values. I vote in favor of more units instead of better units.

 

[pinktilapia]

I'll gladly help, would be honoured, in fact. Tech icons, splashes... that sort of thing. I'm only really a glorified cut n' paster but some of my results tend to be quite good!
Just tell me where to start...

Ok , I assume you have the mod, so where to start is very easy . Look into the Wonder Splash folder and see which art there is inadequate or even plain ugly, and replace it with something better! Same goes with the Civilopedia tech icons (which currently have no folder since I used exisiting vanilla & conquests art). You can either work alone and send me the new art pack once finished, or each time post the new art on the thread for discussion, cheering, and for me to collect it (although I would still prefer getting the package zipped once finished). I will manage the pediaicons.txt, so let me worry about it. From what I collected, most people found the busts used in the pedia pretty ugly (e.g. Scipio), so there could be a good start! Ah, and I was in the middle of a scanning session before getting interupted by more work, but if I can gather them on time, I might send you a pack of pictures soon.

@Taijian

I love the velites as they are now. I won't reduce them again without a good reason (which I don't have right now )

Cpt. Beaver

Welcome back. Actually your idea is not too hard to implement. What disturb me is that it is a mjaor change (that will upset the delicate balance we have been trying to set for months). I wish we have more discussion on this before I try it out in-game. More units early on folks?

 

[Aion]

At least for my early game wasn't that much of a problem. Sure, the Carthaginians were tough foes, but that's what they're supposed to be. It became increasingly problematic in middle game when the AI civs had stack-piled huge armies. IMO the number of Roman units is ok, but the number of AI units should be lower. It's not fun having +100 hippotoxotae against you, you know.

 

[The Last Conformist]

The Hellenics could use less free units - the Macedonians and Ptolemies had garguantuan armies in my games.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Also, at least in my games, the Seleucids collapse to the Parthians very early, which is neither realistic nor fun.

 

[Drendor]

I agree that all in all the situation for the romans is a little bit to tough in general. I have used the reload option way more than what feels comfortable and all through the game I have been way behind the historic timescheudle. I´m not sure what should be done about it though.

Better support or cheaper troops for the romans in the early to mid game?

Or a limit to troop support for the Persians, Ptolemay, Macedonians and Germanics?

Regarding overrun Selucids, In my game the selucids succumbed to the parthians around year 0. I really had to hurry to ship troops from Balkan/Greece to Pergamum in order to conquer some of the selucid cities at the coast. To prevent Parthians from getting them.

 

[Taijian]

Better support or cheaper troops for the romans in the early to mid game?

Or a limit to troop support for the Persians, Ptolemay, Macedonians and Germanics?

In my mind, there are two easy posibilities of making the early game more easy:
1. Give Rome more free support - another 10 free support would make a huge difference in the early going but probably not help much later against the barbarian invasions.
2. Reduce the number of free units for pretty much everyone else. Even Illyria can match each of the legions I throw at it in 220 BC with at least one Pedites. These small civs (Iberia is another one) should only be minor speedbumps and not require the full attention of the whole roman army to conquer...

 

[Gaias]

I would rather see you impliment wonder spawning buildings to stagger the pure defensive units. With Carthage you could have 3 different small wonders with zero cost to build, that become available with the Techs 275-250 BC, 225-200 BC, and 175-150 BC, to simulate wartime dates. Ofcourse the small wonders would become obsolete the next time Tech gained, and should only build about 3 defence units in each city.

I think the only way to truely balance this mod as it should be is to give the AI no ability to build units and give AI units only with preplacement or wonder spawned. That way you can control the behavior of their unit creation, just not their use. Then again that sounds like an entire rework so I would say to limit to the defensive and offensive units that never leave the city.

 

[Drendor]

In my game the difficult part was not the early game. Ok, Carthage was tough but not too tough. And Illyria, Iberia, Thrakia and Macedonia flooded me with troops I agree on that. And the Ptolemay had way too much troops when I attacked them by year 0.

What I think will be the major problem in my game will be defending against the hordes of Germanics, Persians and Goths.
I think its important to conquer as many cities as possible pre year 200 from the Germanics and Persians. You cant afford those wonders to spawn units for free in all those cities.
Right now the Germanics have 30 cities (by 50 AD), they controll some of the former gallic ones. I was in a war with Germanics, they flooded me with 40 horsemen (10-4-2, move through forest) and I had to sue for peace after having repelled the first wave.
After having conquered Egypt my major goals will be to reduce Germanic and Persian cities.

 

[captain beaver]

Pink!
I don't actually beleive that you would actually create 200+ great wonders, with correct names and place them . I wouldn't have the patience that's for sure. Well anyways, if you want to integrate this idea, I think it would help tremendously althought you would have to up the propaganda cost. I noticed I'm making so much money I used propaganda on every capable civ with sucess and I still got a huge tresory.
For reduced free support, I would target mainly the Tribal gov of the barbarians and the Hostile monarchies gov.
Also, with the too many units problem, the problem is that the AI has too much time to stockpile them. Maybe make all the civs east of the mediterranean able to build units only after like 150BC. And only give them immobile def units at the beginning of the game. Same thing goes with Germania, Scithya and Gothia. They aren't supposed to be a threat in the beginning. Put immobile units with huge def in their cities and make them upgrable for 0 gold to their basic attack units in say 100BC. At that same date, give them the ability to build units and not before. They will have thus money and a very little number of units. Well, of course that is a major change, so maybe make that kind of version which would not require so much time to build (just to point out that I don't always have crazy ideas) a post beta-version. Then, put it in the front page and ask people for report on playability.

It's pretty much what Gaias said. Far away AIs shouldn't be able to build units in the beginning. Combined with more free support for Rome and less for the AIs, it would probably help in reducing the overall difficulty level.

 

[apolytonCivfan]

hi all.

pink, again i love your mod and i think we should vote on this one for best civ3 ancient era mod.

question: I'm playing the newest version of your mod and have noticed that armies now only attack once in a turn instead of 2 times, was this intended? It really slows down progress in early game.

thanks again

civfan

 

[primordial stew]

question: I'm playing the newest version of your mod and have noticed that armies now only attack once in a turn instead of 2 times, was this intended? It really slows down progress in early game.

Only the Consulor legions have this limit. I believe the idea is that Rome was more defensive at this point, so no blitz, but no HP penalty either.

 

[primordial stew]

Explication : Assuming all gov (except civil war) give Rome 1 free unit per city conquered, it will help considerably for early conquests. But the barbarian invasions will be stalled due to the high number of units Rome posess'. So, since the spawn timers do not reset when a city is conquered, at a given date, all cities within the Empire will spawn a useless unit which will eat up the free support and then the fall can begin. Of course, when those cities are lost, this cash consuming unit will be destroyed. Accordingly, when Byzance reconquers lost territories, those liberated cities will actually give again the free support, helping further the recovery made by Justinian. At the same time, putting wonders in every cities is a thing that should have been done loooooooooooong ago to stop razing-happy AIs.

So while Pink hides to save his life in front of the uber-workload this idea will require, I think improvements to this mod should be made in the general direction of an increase of Rome's early units and subsequent decrease during the early ADs crisis to be followed by another increase toward the closing of the game.

Isn't this already handled by the varying support costs in each goverment? That is very simple.

I agree that as is it will be hard for Justinian to re-take cities, but nobody has a good idea how that period will play out yet. In the next patch Germania and Scythia will be locked, so hopefully Atilla attacks again (I haven't seen him since Gothia was added). Atilla(s) are to be feared, just 1 of them attacking can quickly escalate into a debacle!!!! Another change sould be more of those 99A units (double spawn rate of 1.02 or something), so the barbs should be more aggressive. Those changes should cause plenty of grief!


The early nations can be conquered, but it does take the bulk of the army to do it, as well as an army of slaves close behind to build all the roads which allow the army to get to the next conflict in a timely manner. As always I would like a higher work-function for all legions (and armies). This will help get the troops out, and reduce slave cleanup time, which is too long.

Carthage should be hard. It was the same size as Rome, and it did take 3 wars, during which the Romans made many improvements to the military. The pop 1 costing Legio Marius should give a kicker to help in conquering the mid-game nations (Ptolemites, Pirates.. argh!, Syrians..). Probobly Pompey was supposed to help more here, but don't get many legions out of him due to running behind (ever since .95?).

As for the barbarians.. we'll see how the new alliance works out. Scythia just hasn't mattered ever since Gothia came into being. I'm sure everyone will be more than happy if we can all get to that point in good order with the next changes!!

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Pink, sorry, I know this is TOTALLY annoying and inappropriate, especially because I haven't been helping to beta test recently... but the question is:

when is the new patch coming? I have been wanting to finally play recently, but now I want to see the new graphics and play with the last refinements... maybe you could get a small increment patch out, before you make some of these bigger changes...

Thanks