Rise And Rule Revisited (epic mod)

[Vojvoda]

Resistance is futile when mother of russia tanks are rolling. Great mod.

 

[keli]

Would it be possible to nerf the helicopters a bit? They are extremely powerful in the late game and are an easy instrument to steamroll through everyone.

 

[Civinator]

Would it be possible to nerf the helicopters a bit? They are extremely powerful in the late game and are an easy instrument to steamroll through everyone.

Keli, thank you very much for your continuing interest in RARR. At present I´m completely involved in the betatest of CCM2. I think here Civ 3 will receive a very powerful mod - but RARR is not forgotten. What stats would you suggest for the helicopters?

 

[keli]

Wow, that was a quick response, you are awesome.

Regarding the copters, I would definitely nerf the movement speed from 8 to 4 and attack damage from 48 to 30 and also decrease the shield cost proportionally.

I would also like to share my other ideas so they can be discussed. I am playing mostly on Emperor difficulty.

1) AI abuses hurrying units, thus all its cities are near 1 pop after a longer war campaign. Its quite annoying because the AI basically sacrifices everything and is not even able to recover in the long run. A quick fix would be to disable hurrying below 5 pop or more.
2) AI builds transport ships, loads a lot of units into them, but they never sail out. Additionally, the units are stuck in the transport for the game. This leads to situations when the AI is losing the war and bleeding units, but still has a huge army in a city far from the frontline stuck in the transports.
3) AI likes to sell buildings. Is there a way to disable this only for the AI?
4) Either decrease the shield cost of infantry type units, or increase the cost of tanks. As of now there is no reason to build any units other than tanks as they are the fastest and the most cost effective. The easiest way to win games right now is to mass build tanks. There is no reason to bother with any other units really.
5) There is no reason to build siege units, because defender units are weak. From the medieval era and onward the attacker units outshine all defender units by mile. They are faster and have disproportionately higher attack damage. The pikeman is the strongest defender unit with 4 defense up until mid-industrialization era, while knights, curassiers, hussars and cavalry are all stronger with 5-6-7-8 attack damage. This is also true for the late industrialization and modern era, no defender unit matches the firepower of attacker units by a long shot. When tanks appear with 14 attack damage, the strongest defender is the machine gunner with 8 defense.

Because defenders are quite underpowered from the medieval era and on, there is no need for siege units as cities pretty much can be captured without them. They are also slow and cannot move together with the 3 or 4 speed cavalry units.

Of course they can also be used for defense. But the problem here is that the attacker units' health is inflated compared to normal Civ III, as they come with 5 health from the barracks and can easily gain 1 or 2 health from experience. So using a catapult to decrease the health of a knight from 5 to 4 does not correlate well with the cost of building the catapult.

 

[Civinator]

keli, thank you very much for your input about RARR.

Doc Tsiolkovski was so kind to post his thoughts about some of these topics, (especially about the tanks). You can find his post here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rise-and-rule-revisited-epic-mod.549166/page-12#post-14023615
What are other fans of RARR / RAR / DyP thinking about keli´s suggestions?

 

[jlvfr]

I don't think the AI should be prevented from abusing conscripting city populations. It's a logic thing to do, and I've done it myself a couple of times ("fight to the last man!!"), and it would significantly weaken it vs humans.

As for transport ships... yeah the AI simply doesn't know how to handle amphib ops, imho. In every mod I've seen (even the original game) at most it just picks one transport, loads it up and charges with just that; other transports may come latter on, but only singly. I think it's just that he AI part is not I enough to realise what amphib assaults are and that they require massive brute force; so, at most we get these "commando raids", or nothing at all. It requires inteligence to know how to use these units. A similar problem exists with submarines: stupid AI sub runs into one of our ships, it attacks and declares war, instead of simply going around...

"Siege units", you mean artillery? I build lots, as in dozens. Then I used them to punch up defenders down to 1hp before attacking, or to soften up those giant army stacks the AI sometimes makes. But I do get the problem of defender vs attacker; untill tanks appared, defense vs attack was actually quite balanced. Perhaps one way is to create strong (but slow) AT units, with little offensive power but strong defense and a defensive fire value. So, for example, assume a tech called "Early tanks" is now available, 2 new units would pop up (these values are made up):

Tank 12/5/2
AT 2((5))/10/1

For earlier units, try to balance the defense/ofense values:

Pikeman 1/6/1
Hussar 7/2/2

This might increase the use of artillery to soften up the enemy before an attack.

Since we are discussing unit costs and their use, I have another: nuclear weapons. In pretty much every mod I've played, they are easy to get, far too easy. And the AI sees no problem in using them as just another weapon. I think the cost of both this tech, and the weapons involved (specially missiles) should be vastly increased, as in 500% or more, to reflect their importance and maybe curtail there use.

 

[Jarovid]

I agree with jlvfr except for the tanks. It should be extremely difficult to defend from large amount of tanks (that's what Blitzkrieg was about) and the only cure for that is an even larger amount of tanks (e.g. Battle of Kursk).

 

[jlvfr]

I agree with jlvfr except for the tanks. It should be extremely difficult to defend from large amount of tanks (that's what Blitzkrieg was about) and the only cure for that is an even larger amount of tanks (e.g. Battle of Kursk).

Note that Blitzkrieg was more about speed of force than actually force. Maybe increase the speed of tanks, rather than mess with the ofense/defense value?

 

[Jarovid]

Sidenote: it was the speed and concentration. French and Soviets made the same mistake, they spread their armor along front lines, while Germans piled theirs on strategic spots.

I like the idea of increasing speed of tanks, but I think Civinator said once that this is just graphic update and I am not sure how far we should go in changing original set up of the mod.

 

[jlvfr]

I like the idea of increasing speed of tanks, but I think Civinator said once that this is just graphic update and I am not sure how far we should go in changing original set up of the mod.

Modify the tank icons to make it look they are moving faster.

 

[keli]

Well, I was arguing for nerfing the tanks, not buffing them

 

[Node60]

"Siege units", you mean artillery? I build lots, as in dozens. Then I used them to punch up defenders down to 1hp before attacking, or to soften up those giant army stacks the AI sometimes makes. But I do get the problem of defender vs attacker; untill tanks appared, defense vs attack was actually quite balanced. Perhaps one way is to create strong (but slow) AT units, with little offensive power but strong defense and a defensive fire value. So, for example, assume a tech called "Early tanks" is now available, 2 new units would pop up (these values are made up):

Tank 12/5/2
AT 2((5))/10/1

For earlier units, try to balance the defense/ofense values:

Pikeman 1/6/1
Hussar 7/2/2

This might increase the use of artillery to soften up the enemy before an attack.

Here it is necessary to be careful. AI reluctantly builds artillery and isn't able to good use her. Therefore such changes will translate to weakening of force of attack both in wars of computer players among themselves, and during attack of AI on the human.

 

[Vasyl]

Hi, everyone!
Civinator - thank you for supporting such a great mod. I've used to play DYP a long time ago when Conquests weren't released yet. Currently I would like to play RARR, however there are some things that I'd like to clarify.
1. Looks like there is no huge Earth map that was a great feature of DYP. Could you please implement it? I've seen three or four similar requests before, so please take my into account as well.
2. Ability to make more turns would be great as well.
3. Can I change the leader heads back to the original ones? I'd prefer to communicate with Joan d'Arc, not Napoleon.
4. Could you please provide more information about supply shipments? I did not enable "Capture the flag" option before, since it wasn't very interesting for me. I prefer to win by conquest or spaceship. Won't it cause an "unexpected victory"?

Thank you in advance for your response.

 

[Civinator]

jlvfr, Jarovid, keli and Node60, thank you all very much for your input. This iinput is highly appreciated and noted.

... I think Civinator said once that this is just graphic update and I am not sure how far we should go in changing original set up of the mod.

I´m allowed by the old creators of RAR to do changes to that mod and there will come the time, when I will do this.

 

[Civinator]

Hi, everyone!
Civinator - thank you for supporting such a great mod. I've used to play DYP a long time ago when Conquests weren't released yet. Currently I would like to play RARR, however there are some things that I'd like to clarify.
1. Looks like there is no huge Earth map that was a great feature of DYP. Could you please implement it? I've seen three or four similar requests before, so please take my into account as well.
2. Ability to make more turns would be great as well.
3. Can I change the leader heads back to the original ones? I'd prefer to communicate with Joan d'Arc, not Napoleon.
4. Could you please provide more information about supply shipments? I did not enable "Capture the flag" option before, since it wasn't very interesting for me. I prefer to win by conquest or spaceship. Won't it cause an "unexpected victory"?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Vasyl, thank you very much for your kind words about RARR.

1. Worldmap:

The DyP worldmap is not fitting, as RAR (and RARR at present only is a graphical update of RAR as mentioned above) made some huge changes compared to DYP. I´m aware of only one RAR worldmap, but its download seems to be no longer available:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/jarretts-rar-world-map-no-barb-camps.101108/#post-2223563 . If someone still has that map (or another RAR-map), it wouldn´t be a big problem to import that map to RARR (or the other way around).
At present I create a huge enhanced worldmap for CCM2 and I can tell you, that this is a major undertaking. At present I don´t plan to do a special worldmap for RARR and I don´t know if I can use the new CCM2 worldmap for RARR, as RARR has very different setting of growth of population and different resources.

2. RARR extended version:

I cannot find the post with the extended RARR biq, so I attache it to the next post. That biq wasn´t done by me.

3. Changing of leaderheads:

This is possible. You must change the entries in the editor for France to the original animations for all 4 eras. Use editor 1.00 (coming with vanilla C3C), otherwise a bug in the currecnt C3C editor will stop the game in creating scientific leaders.

4. Supplyshipments:

I gave a lot of informations about supplyshipments here (the post is in my CCM thread, but the supplyshipments in RARR are working in the same way): CCM (epic mod)

An 'unexpected' victory triggered by supplyshipments was neither reported nor noticed.

 

[Civinator]

RARR extended version:

I cannot find the post with the extended RARR biq, so I attache it to thist post (as I was blocked from adding it by editing my last post).That biq wasn´t done by me.

Edit: Now I did find it:

The extended biq was made by 'from_kg'. It can be found here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rise-and-rule-revisited-epic-mod.549166/page-18#post-14149397

Here is my reply to his post, as he made some other changes, too:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rise-and-rule-revisited-epic-mod.549166/page-18#post-14159006

 

[Vasyl]

Civinator, thank you for your kind explanation of the Supply Shipments logic and advices regarding leaders heads and extended version. Going to try that shortly. However I still would be happy to have a huge Earth map. Anyway, thank you for the great work!

 

[Vasyl]

Hi everyone!
I'm playing this great mod, and quite happy with it. However currently I have one interesting situation, and Eastern Cataphracts seem to be a bit unbalanced to me. I decided to adjust their stats and try to replay a couple of turns. Opened the scenario in editor, adjusted it, loaded the save, but the stats stay unchanged. I thought it was possible. Am I making a mistake?

 

[jlvfr]

Hi everyone!
I'm playing this great mod, and quite happy with it. However currently I have one interesting situation, and Eastern Cataphracts seem to be a bit unbalanced to me. I decided to adjust their stats and try to replay a couple of turns. Opened the scenario in editor, adjusted it, loaded the save, but the stats stay unchanged. I thought it was possible. Am I making a mistake?

If you change a rule, you have to start a new game for the new rule to work.

 

[Civinator]

... and even if you start a new game it can happen, that your new biq is overwritten by an older biq in the virtual store of your windows.