Rise of Mankind 2.9 discussion

[JosEPh_II]

- Changed: Fisherman's Hut max food production from resources 20%->12%, AIWeight 100->200
- Changed: Butchery max food production from resources 20%->12%, AIWeight 100->200


Great Wonders
-------------
- Changed: Adam Smith's Trading company no longer give +1 gold per specialist (only gives +1 trade routes in all cities)

Why Is Adam Smith being ganged up on? Will the avg player now have to seek out eXploits to have a + economy? It's the Uber players and Exploiters that have complained about AS. Regular/Avg players and beginners have Not.

Making the AI weight towards Fish Hut and Butchery is fine. But then reduce their effectiveness? Seems counter productive to me. And will make using them harder IMHO.

JosEPh

 

[Afforess]

Zappara,

I'm worried that the cottage/hamlet nerfing will significantly slow city growth in the early game. If anything, a bit of a boost to growth is necessary. It was the rampant growth that made happiness and healthiness so hard to achieve. Instead, this will only serve to widen the rift.

The Civic changes seem fairly sensible, but Republic and Democracy are still OP. I realize it's probably because we are biased, but at the very least, Republic comes too early.

Also, the changes to the Artesian well hardly make it worth building. 1 Food is a drop in the bucket by the time it is unlocked. Perhaps just remove the rice bonus?

Hopefully my AI changes for the Units requiring buildings will have trickled down by the time 2.9 is ready so that you can remove those AI weights.

Also, removing storms is slightly saddenning. I know it caused slowdowns, but couldn't you just off the No Storms module in the unloaded Modules folder?

I have a somewhat important question:
You made the Warlord units require military buildings, but how did you solve the issue with UB's? If the Civilization has a UB that replaces the Barracks, Garrison, etc..., they are screwed. I had to make SDK changes to get around that.

On a more positive note, I like that you added the new events. It means more event images for me, but more interesting games too.

Hopefully I wasn't too negative, I do appreciate all the other changes, especially with promotions and the new Citystyles.

 

[swobig]

Wondering if anyone else thinks planes should come in a little sooner. Seems well after rifes which does not seem to be accurate...

 

[Xoatl_169]

ya for only the units in the city it is build in hahaha only a very marginal fix. And in the grand scheme of things it really does very little. Unless of course you build all your units in that one city, but there is so many buildings to build in the game, you will have a very undeveloped city. Again as I said 4 or 5 posts before I do not mind the upgrade cost, but there is just not enough gold in the later eras. That is more of a personal preference though then anything else.

It cost me 10k gold just to upgrade my jet fighters to f15's and then not even 20 turns later I could upgrade them again, which costs even more....... sorry but it will almost be better to build new ones. I mean the cost of the gold per turn combined wit the upgrade costs, it becomes fairly unmanageable.

thanks,
Bob

P.S I notice that the workers on automation can not figure out what do build, it seems tho that the ai does not have this issue. The workers will change tile improvements in one given tile every 4 or 5 turns. It doesn't seem to just pick one and go with it. I have not used it this game or my last jsut warning people that if you want towns and dense industry you might wanna take them off auto or maybe put it on workers leave old improvements.

I've noticed that aswell. But i thought it was part of the game. I kept units who were worth upgrading like heavily buffed, and gifted units that were not worth upgrading to friendly nations.

 

[civ_king]

can we lift the cap on xp from barbarians to 100? also can we stop the xp from being dropped on upgrading?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

My question is - will events be fixed? Some like the herbalism one give 3 choices which are something like (1) +1 happy, (2) -1 happy or (3) -1 happy with cost. Ie you don't get the health bonus at least it is not mentioned either.

 

[zappara]

Zappara,

I'm worried that the cottage/hamlet nerfing will significantly slow city growth in the early game. If anything, a bit of a boost to growth is necessary. It was the rampant growth that made happiness and healthiness so hard to achieve. Instead, this will only serve to widen the rift.

The Civic changes seem fairly sensible, but Republic and Democracy are still OP. I realize it's probably because we are biased, but at the very least, Republic comes too early.

Also, the changes to the Artesian well hardly make it worth building. 1 Food is a drop in the bucket by the time it is unlocked. Perhaps just remove the rice bonus?

Hopefully my AI changes for the Units requiring buildings will have trickled down by the time 2.9 is ready so that you can remove those AI weights.

Also, removing storms is slightly saddenning. I know it caused slowdowns, but couldn't you just off the No Storms module in the unloaded Modules folder?

I have a somewhat important question:
You made the Warlord units require military buildings, but how did you solve the issue with UB's? If the Civilization has a UB that replaces the Barracks, Garrison, etc..., they are screwed. I had to make SDK changes to get around that.

On a more positive note, I like that you added the new events. It means more event images for me, but more interesting games too.

Hopefully I wasn't too negative, I do appreciate all the other changes, especially with promotions and the new Citystyles.

With cottage/hamlet nerf you should notice also that I allowed forests to stay on the plot which means cottages have more production now (and less food). On test games I've seen AIs build cottages a lot now...

I haven't completed civic changes yet - more tweaks will come in time...

Artesian well food production was raised from 1 to 3 (as it says in the changelog) to compensate the removal of rice bonus.

There's still plenty of storms because of random events (less on areas that you won't see early game -> increased performance). Some mapscripts still place storms to all oceans at game start (RoM_Perfectworld2 at least).

Civs with UB barracks, garrison etc. will have UU warlord units (see the changelog, I mentioned it there). That's how I got around the building xml tag limitation. Of course similar changes are required for Mega pack civs which got UBs for those building classes...

can we lift the cap on xp from barbarians to 100? also can we stop the xp from being dropped on upgrading?

No, we can't I raised the kept xp amount by one level (see changelog).

My question is - will events be fixed? Some like the herbalism one give 3 choices which are something like (1) +1 happy, (2) -1 happy or (3) -1 happy with cost. Ie you don't get the health bonus at least it is not mentioned either.

I'm going through random events - there's still lot of work to be done.

The changelog I posted just shows the work amount that have gone into the next version - it'll show more changes once we get closer to the release...

Something that seems weird to me is that cottage no longer removes forest or jungle. It just doesn`t feel right. And once the cottage has matured, it would probably look strange, no?

It looks perfectly fine, when cottage is placed on the plot it removes some trees from the middle of plot and as the cottage grows to higher states, more trees are removed so there's not really any overlapping with buildings/trees.

 

[Flay]

Sorry to bother with resources, but in a huge map I would expect to get more than 1 resource of stone. No ?
We tried the planet generator 0,68 with Rom 2,71, huge 4 continent 70% ocean + big island.
gGot the sarkyn mod mod for extra stone but doesn't look likes it help cause we got only 1 resource of stone.

 

[zappara]

Yesterday evening I added new German translation to RoM 2.9 and also added tags for 5 new language choices for all text entries (there's 10305 text entries in RoM)... It'll probably take some time to fill them all...

 

[zappara]

Yesterday I wanted to try something new in RoM and the result was random event that can spawn event unit (ie. unit that can be gained only from the random event)... works perfectly.

 

[Afforess]

Yesterday I wanted to try something new in RoM and the result was random event that can spawn event unit (ie. unit that can be gained only from the random event)... works perfectly.

Ooh nice. I know you can do a lot of cool stuff with random events, but that's definitely unique.

 

[zappara]

Ooh nice. I know you can do a lot of cool stuff with random events, but that's definitely unique.

and it needed only small python block Similar events can be tied to buildings as well so for example King Richard's Crusade wonder could be tied to random event that does the unit spawning... which possibly would allow us to get rid of crusade python block from RoMEventManager.py.

The same method could be used for making some interesting events - the hard part is designing units / writing events

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

and it needed only small python block Similar events can be tied to buildings as well so for example King Richard's Crusade wonder could be tied to random event that does the unit spawning... which possibly would allow us to get rid of crusade python block from RoMEventManager.py.

The same method could be used for making some interesting events - the hard part is designing units / writing events

I always liked the version of Crusades that gave each city a small chance of producing a crusader each turn that King Richard's Crusade was around.

 

[Killtech]

i see that there is some debate on the civics so i thought i throw my thoughts on this in. IMHO the civics describing how my state is governed are very weird (government and power) allowing very funny combinations like democracy+vassalage. indeed i find it very hard to classify most real governments into these civics. for example Germany: it's without doubt a Democracy and it calls itself Federal Republic - and yes it is really a democratic and federal republic! so until now these civics don't have any more meaning to me that the bonuses i get form them.

i intened to remake the civics for myself but since they are under discussion i think i can suggest my idea here:

Spoiler :

Govermens:
Disorganized (formerly Chiefdom):

• +100% Mnt. for dist. to Palace (no government organization)
• +100% Mnt. for number of Cities (no government organization)
• *no Civic Upkeep
• *does not allow to pick any non-default power civic
  [*]-4 local Rev-stability trough foreign cultue (we want back into out home country)
  [*]-2 national Rev-stability (no state authority)
  [*]-4 national Rev-stability (no state authority)

Monarchy: (understood as centralized Monarchy - centralized state with one ruler government; can be understood as Dictatorship too)

• +60% Mnt. for dist. to Palace
• +40% Mnt. for number of Cities
• *low Civic Upkeep
• +50% in Capital (centralized)
• +10% , in n larges Cities (centralized)
• +1 unhappiness in every City (no voice in the Government)
• -20% War (strong leadership)
  [*]-3 local Rev-stability (centralization malus)
  [*]-2 national Rev-stability (no room for political debate in one-ruler system)

Commonwealth: (understood as Federal Monarchy - federal organized state with one ruler on top holding both the executive & legistaltive)

• - 50% Mnt. for number of Cities (federal)
• *high Civic Upkeep
• +1 unhappiness in every City (no voice in the Government)
• -10% War (strong leadership)
  [*]-1 local Rev-stability trough foreign cultue (we want back into out home country)
  [*]+2 local Rev-stability (federal bonus)
  [*]-3 national Rev-stability (no political debate in one-ruler system)

Republic (Parliamentarian Centralized Republic):

• +50% Mnt. for dist. to Palace
• +10% Mnt. for number of Cities
• *normal Civic Upkeep
• +30% in Capital (centralized)
• +15% , in n larges Cities (centralized)
  [*]-3 local Rev-stability trough foreign cultue (we want back into out home country)
  [*]-2 local Rev-stability (centralization malus)
  [*]+4 national Rev-stability (political debate bonus)

Federation (Parliamentarian Federal Republic):

• -50% Mnt. for dist. to Palace (federal)
• -50% Mnt. for number of Cities (federal)
• *very high Civic Upkeep
• +10% War
  [*]-5 local Rev-stability trough foreign cultue (we want back into out home country)
  [*]+3 local Rev-stability trough foreign cultue (federal bonus)
  [*]+2 national Rev-stability (political debate bonus)

Presidential Republic: (i didn't want to split that up into federal/centralized; no names for that)

• *normal Civic ukpeep
• +5% , in n larges Cities (small centraliztion bonus)
• -10% War (strong leadership)
  [*]-2 local Rev-stability trough foreign cultue (we want back into out home country)

Power: (defines the legitimation of governement)

• Martial Law / Military Rule - (inherits most properties form Desportism)
• Police state - (inherits most properties form Fashism)
• Hereditary - should not be allowed with Republic or Federation
• Arictocracy - (inherits propterties form Nobility?)
• Democracy - (inherits properties from Democracy)
• Plutocracy - (censual suffage)
• Theocracy
• Soviets - schould not be allowed with Monarchy or Commonwealth

with this civic system some names disappered. but they are sill there:
Despotism = military rule + Monarchy/Commonwealth
Fashism = police state + Presidential/Monarchy
Junta = military rule + Presidential/Republic/Federation (the junta is a concil of military leaders)
'Communism' = artistocratic (~communist party) + Presidential (seldom Republic/Federation)

furthermore most state and empires can easily be fitted into these civics. Some Examples:
USA: democratic presidential Republic
Germany: democratic Federation
France: democratic Republic
Rome (before Cesar): aristocratic Republic (senate rules and it's members come from Roms noble families = aristocrats)
Rome (while Cesar): aristocratic Monarchy (Cesar was elected dictator by the senat)
Rome (after Cesar): heredity Monarchy
Holy Roman Empire o.G.N., Austro-Hungarian Empire: heredity Commonwealth
Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth: aristocratic Commonwealth (elected king)
Germany (Bismarck & Wilhelm I): plutocratic Commonwealth
Iran: theocratic Republic
Russia (Stalin), Germany (Hitler), China (Mao): military/police Monarchy (totalitarian Dictatorship)
St Pertersburgs soviet (very early soviet union): soviet Republic
Soviet Union: military Commonwealth->Federation (after Stalin the leader was still very strong but with the time the parties importance grew)
China: aristocratic presidential Republic (members of the communist pary are Chinas aristocrats)
former UK: democratic Commonwealth (elected parliament along with a Monarch with executive powers)
todays Denemark, Sweden, Norway: democratic Republic (the royality is only representative! centralized states with parliament that elects the government)


* btw. my classifications follows the German wiki classifcation: 'Regierungssytem' (governance system) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regierungssystem and 'Herrschaftsform' (form of authority) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrschaftsform. there are no english articles on this, sry. the englich wiki just seems to throw everything together on this topic.
* power civic 'Soviet' does NOT refere to the Soviet Union under Lenin or later but a real Soviet Republic (Council Republic). the concept can be found roughtly describet here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy
* added Revolutions mod modifiers in grey. governemnt civics should be balaced with or without them.

is there a way to make these modifications modular somehow?

 

[zappara]

I always liked the version of Crusades that gave each city a small chance of producing a crusader each turn that King Richard's Crusade was around.

That's something to consider.... I could add additional random events that occasionally spawn Crusaders in other cities than the one which has the King Richard's Crusade...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Zappara, the RoM hint about some religions not having missionaries probably should go. I do remember playing when it was true

Edit: also for 2.9 will you be replacing the trade caravan art work with the one I put in as a mod? If so I had better get to work on it as it has ethnic art styles I did not do and some junk in one of the folders.

 

[strategyonly]

Any ETA on 2.9 yet? That way, i can get alot more done.

 

[swobig]

How about having the commercial airport or military airport replace the airport. They are all options mid game...

 

[RobO]

How about having the commercial airport or military airport replace the airport. They are all options mid game...

Good idea, but it really should be the commercial airport that replaces the original airport. A military airport is something unto itself IMO.

 

[zappara]

Any ETA on 2.9 yet? That way, i can get alot more done.

No ETA yet but I'll try to get it ready before the end of February - also it depends when RevDCM gets new version or the BUG mod (BULL might have been the cause for OOS problems, thread in their forum). I just added BUG's SVN version to RoM and it fixed couple python related OOS problems.