(Rising Tides) Quill 18's Chungsu Gameplay

[Gali]

The AI just never accepts peace in that build. Even when Quill gets a white peace option and has overwhelming military advantage the Ai just refuses. He has never gotten an AI to accept peace ever. Add in the complete lack of ability to tailor peace treaties is just bad. You can't even give away cities anymore remember. You will be forced to accept cities in war that crush your health, tick off other civs and weigh you down. The only way to get rid of them is to burn them down.

They never even added in the ability to sort trade routes. Even though they agreed with Quill awhile ago that it was a good idea. Rising Tide is turning out like I expected. Cool new features but way less background work than G and K. This is exactly what a beta period would sort out. They are either poor managers or don't have enough resources. I lean toward the latter considering I was surprised BE even got an expo. I very much doub it has nearly the team or budget CiV had.

 

[Galgus]

I thought the entire point of war score was to make the AI accept reasonable peace deals.

 

[Westwall]

I'm just waiting for the devs to say that it's working as intended, since a sponsor reduced to their last city will decide they'd rather go down fighting than surrender.

More and more signs point to RT being rushed out the door. When will publishers learn?

I hate being right all the time...

 

[Gamewizard]

They never even added in the ability to sort trade routes. Even though they agreed with Quill awhile ago that it was a good idea. Rising Tide is turning out like I expected. Cool new features but way less background work than G and K. This is exactly what a beta period would sort out. They are either poor managers or don't have enough resources. I lean toward the latter considering I was surprised BE even got an expo. I very much doub it has nearly the team or budget CiV had.

There is a Beta planned. It starts Oct 9th.

 

[Doviello]

The war score should work by providing a "weight", which you can spend to tailor the peace deal. Like, each ept is worth 5 "weight", and a small city is 100 weight, so if i have a 200 warscore advantage, i can ask for 1 city and 20 ept, or 40ept, and the AI will see that as a fair deal. Or i can just propose a white peace and waste my advantage.

But instead, the only thing being considered on the peace terms is cities, at least from EVERY warscore screen we've seen so far. Cities are the last thing i want, i raze most of them anyway, just peace out and give me a bunch of energy! I had hopes for this warscore system, but the implementation from what we've seen is terrible.

They never even added in the ability to sort trade routes. Even though they agreed with Quill awhile ago that it was a good idea. Rising Tide is turning out like I expected. Cool new features but way less background work than G and K. This is exactly what a beta period would sort out. They are either poor managers or don't have enough resources. I lean toward the latter considering I was surprised BE even got an expo. I very much doub it has nearly the team or budget CiV had.

No, actually in RT you can sort trade route destinations, not by yields, but alphabetically

 

[Natura]

So Manufactories can only be built on land tiles, along with Terrascapes. Don't know if quill goes for Academies at any point (I'm only up to number 3 in his playthrough). Nodes however can be built at sea, and we knew Biowells could already.

Spoiler :

Alien Preserve gives +2 Diplo capital as well as the current culture. But can't be built in aquatic cities. No sign yet of an aquatic-only equivalent.

They do want us to use Aquatic cities right?

 

[Halbbruder]

So Manufactories can only be built on land tiles, along with Terrascapes. Don't know if quill goes for Academies at any point (I'm only up to number 3 in his playthrough). Nodes however can be built at sea, and we knew Biowells could already.

Spoiler :

Alien Preserve gives +2 Diplo capital as well as the current culture. But can't be built in aquatic cities. No sign yet of an aquatic-only equivalent.

They do want us to use Aquatic cities right?

You're presupposing that alien preserves are highly necessary to win the game. Sure, +2 culture and +2 diplo capital. You're not missing out on much. However, with one affinity quest, that could mean the once-broken, now-fixed affinity quest where you have to build it in your capital will be broken again. As there are more affinity quests, again, not much to miss, but still it would be good to repair that quest for the sea sponsors.

 

[Natura]

You're presupposing that alien preserves are highly necessary to win the game.

I make no such presupposition. Winning a game with purely aquatic cities will of course be possible. As things are shaping up however, aquatic cities seem to be quite sub-optimal. Alien Preserves tend to be researched fairly early, as after the Old Earth Relic, they're the next standard culture building. If aquatic cities lack an equivalent, they'll lag behind land-based cities.

This would be fine if Aquatic Cities had trade-offs in other areas. So far however, this seems lacking. Aquatic cities lack grassland equivalents, and seem to be quite food-poor. They can't build certain improvements that land cities can, but crucially, no unique sea-city improvements exist to compensate that. A purity player who heads for the ocean will doubtless be confused when Terrascapes are unavailable, just like an Industry player who seeks some extra production in their aquatic cities will be perplexed when Manufactories are locked out to them.

We have seen aquatic only buildings and wonders, but so far they've been lackluster. +1 science on all coast tiles worked by this city; not a bad wonder, but overall it amounts to around the output of two or three academies. 50% less maintenance for improvements and buildings, when Terrascapes can't be built in the water, just seems pointless (doubly so when energy is so easy to obtain). Thermacline Rudder does give +2 science, which is nice, though early on it seems a bit expensive.

What really rankles is that the restrictions seem needless and arbitrary. If we can have floating biolabs, why not manufactories? We can have underwater farms, but artificial coral reefs couldn't stand-in for terrascapes? Aquatic aliens exist, so why not alien preserves in the water?

Coupled with no natural border growth and lower city defences, aquatic cities just feel lackluster compared to continuing to build on land. This is in stark contrast to the drastically overhauled diplomatic system, which, with the exception of the war-score bugs, looks like a vast improvement for the game.

 

[Halbbruder]

I make no such presupposition. Winning a game with purely aquatic cities will of course be possible. As things are shaping up however, aquatic cities seem to be quite sub-optimal. Alien Preserves tend to be researched fairly early, as after the Old Earth Relic, they're the next standard culture building. If aquatic cities lack an equivalent, they'll lag behind land-based cities.

I think Firaxis is trying to ensure that sea cities, which can move, do not become overtly ridiculous and OP. I see that sea cities cannot be settled on deep ocean, so I assume they cannot be moved into the ocean (needs verification). In considering these factors, yes, there are quite a few impediments for sea cities, but they can still move very far and coupled with energy stores, one could mass-produce an army/navy/air force right at your doorstep, just like the AI sometimes does in Age of Empires 2 when they build some military buildings not far from your town. That's my current concern, but as I've mentioned the ocean limits, I am trying to allay it myself.

This would be fine if Aquatic Cities had trade-offs in other areas. So far however, this seems lacking. Aquatic cities lack grassland equivalents, and seem to be quite food-poor. They can't build certain improvements that land cities can, but crucially, no unique sea-city improvements exist to compensate that. A purity player who heads for the ocean will doubtless be confused when Terrascapes are unavailable, just like an Industry player who seeks some extra production in their aquatic cities will be perplexed when Manufactories are locked out to them.

Sea cities are not always going to be entirely away from land. They can still use those tiles, albeit there's reduced space available.

What really rankles is that the restrictions seem needless and arbitrary. If we can have floating biolabs, why not manufactories? We can have underwater farms, but artificial coral reefs couldn't stand-in for terrascapes? Aquatic aliens exist, so why not alien preserves in the water?

I still see sea cities as an early form of avoiding zerg rushes, primarily from people who start inland and primarily in pangaea or continental-like maps. In maps like archipelago, of course, that's not really the case, but remember that sea cities do have bonus production for naval units. Through positioning, you also get greater opportunities to collect swabs of resource pods and expeditions while the land sponsors cover their ground first and then explore the sea. If you made a mistake landing somewhere on the sea, you can correct it by moving it.

If you have a sea empire, you don't have to worry about an army until the hovertanks come out, but you do need a good navy. The reduced sea defences is probably Firaxis trying to play safe on this content. If sea cities could not move around and their culture expanded borders naturally, then you're absolutely right: the limits on sea cities would not make sense at all.

 

[Natura]

I see that sea cities cannot be settled on deep ocean, so I assume they cannot be moved into the ocean (needs verification).

They actually can move into deep ocean with the right technology (the one that allows embarkation).

In considering these factors, yes, there are quite a few impediments for sea cities, but they can still move very far and coupled with energy stores, one could mass-produce an army/navy/air force right at your doorstep, just like the AI sometimes does in Age of Empires 2 when they build some military buildings not far from your town.

You potentially could, yes. However I'd argue that there are way better ways to do that. Phasal Transporters are the thing I think of immediately, and have the added advantage of being able to deploy your forces directly inside enemy territory, and from everywhere in your empire. But if you're not that far up the tech tree, carriers can transfer your aircraft, and land units can just embark their way across.

There's also the threat of losing your hard earned city if the invasion goes bad. If you use a transporter or naval invasion force, and things go bad, you'll lose the invasion force, but you won't lose cities (at least not at once).

Sea cities are not always going to be entirely away from land. They can still use those tiles, albeit there's reduced space available.

Absolutely, but then why wouldn't you just found the city on land and exploit any sea resources from there? Coastal cities seem to have gotten a big boost in BERT because you can develop water tiles, and they have more resources.

I still see sea cities as an early form of avoiding zerg rushes, primarily from people who start inland and primarily in pangaea or continental-like maps. In maps like archipelago, of course, that's not really the case, but remember that sea cities do have bonus production for naval units. Through positioning, you also get greater opportunities to collect swabs of resource pods and expeditions while the land sponsors cover their ground first and then explore the sea. If you made a mistake landing somewhere on the sea, you can correct it by moving it.

Fair points, though I consider them to be minor. Sea cities also don't need to worry about artillery until hovertech shows up. It remains to be seen how easy it is to capture them; consider as well that sea units move much faster than ground units, so a zerg force can show up faster.

If you have a sea empire, you don't have to worry about an army until the hovertanks come out, but you do need a good navy. The reduced sea defences is probably Firaxis trying to play safe on this content. If sea cities could not move around and their culture expanded borders naturally, then you're absolutely right: the limits on sea cities would not make sense at all.

I guess I just don't see aquatic cities being able to move as that big of a bonus. It's a nice little gimmick, but it seems to be having detrimental knock-on effects that are out of proportion to the benefit you get from being able to move them.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

A broken war score means a broken brasilia since their new sponsor trait is entirely dependent on the war score mechanic working properly. Right now, it seems Brasilia's trait is not just weak but actually hurts the player.

I fully expect a patch on release date. It took base BE several patches to be decent, I expect RT will need some patches too to balance and fix things.

 

[Natura]

A broken war score means a broken brasilia since their new sponsor trait is entirely dependent on the war score mechanic working properly.

Hey hey woah, slow down there. There's more to Brazilia than just their War Score. I think you're forgetting the +1 diplomatic capital gained by killing a unit. With a 315 DC investment you can even make it +3! Think of the possibilities! I think even without a functioning war score mechanic, when it comes to Brazilia in Rising Tide, these numbers speak for themselves.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Hey hey woah, slow down there. There's more to Brazilia than just their War Score. I think you're forgetting the +1 diplomatic capital gained by killing a unit. With a 315 DC investment you can even make it +3! Think of the possibilities! I think even without a functioning war score mechanic, when it comes to Brazilia in Rising Tide, these numbers speak for themselves.

I sense sarcasm.

 

[aguliondew]

I keep wondering why Quill keeps avoiding the recycler for more costly production builds. Recycler 4 turns vs auto plant or alloy foundry 11 turns. 3x the cost for equal the amount production. I really want to play this game a lot of improvement to early game.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

They are either poor managers or don't have enough resources. I lean toward the latter considering I was surprised BE even got an expo. I very much doubt it has nearly the team or budget CiV had.

My assumption is that they don't have enough resources. I always got the impression that BE is basically an experiment in the "scifi civ" genre but Firaxis' main projects are XCOM and civ6. My guess is the entire BE team is basically Will and Dave writing code, some borrowed artists who split their work between BE, XCOM and civ6 and the lead producer, Andrew, to oversee the whole thing.

 

[BevHeartMuncher]

Hey hey woah, slow down there. There's more to Brazilia than just their War Score. I think you're forgetting the +1 diplomatic capital gained by killing a unit. With a 315 DC investment you can even make it +3! Think of the possibilities! I think even without a functioning war score mechanic, when it comes to Brazilia in Rising Tide, these numbers speak for themselves.

There's a tiny lurking feeling as a Brasilia fanboy that it's 1 DC per combat strength of the defeated unit. Because that would be super good. Killing a L4 tank would be like 150 DC though fully leveled, so it wouldnt be
I can dream. And (maybe) mod.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

There's a tiny lurking feeling as a Brasilia fanboy that it's 1 DC per combat strength of the defeated unit. Because that would be super good. Killing a L4 tank would be like 150 DC though fully leveled, so it wouldnt be
I can dream. And (maybe) mod.

even if it were 50% of combat strength that would still be good.

 

[Gorbles]

I hate being right all the time...

Considering you have a reluctance to blame anything on publishers, instead preferring to cite issues with the developers, I fail to see how you see the quoted post as making you right . . . when the quoted post places precise blame on the publisher.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

New artifact wonder: "Temporal Calculus" gives +2 visibility range to all your units.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

New water only wonder:
Abyssal Mirror (unlocked with tech Geoscaping)
Cost: 904
+5 diplo capital
Effect: orbital units launched from this city may overlap the coverage area of other orbital units by 1 tile
Can only be built in water cities