Rockets

[Hydromancerx]

I thought about posting this in other threads but I think it deserves it own thread. So now that we have a C2C_ThreePlanets map script in C2C we can finally test out Lunar and Mars maps. In planning I wanted to have something that works for those maps, but also can work for the eventual multi-maps.

As I explained before in the Space Terrain topic that on a C2C_ThreePlanets map script that there is one map with 3 sub-maps (Earth, Mars and Moon). In between are strips of Space and where they touch are thin strips of "orbital" terrain that are impassable and don't allow normal units to pass through the terrain. However those with can pass through impassable terrain turn on can do so.

Which leads me to rockets and how they could be done. First is what to use for models, I think the best would be using Missiles units that have been re textured. Now how they can work, Since the early rockets were expendable I was thinking perhaps they could work like Spies do in that they accomplish a mission and then disappear.

Alternatively perhaps they could work like a Caravel or Aircraft Carrier and transport a special "Payload unit" such as a Lunar Lander. Or perhaps they could be like Gatherers and place an improvement on the terrain and then are used up. Such as a Lunar Lander Improvement.

The other issue is what should the Rocket units be. I personally am not very familiar with the whole history of rockets and space exploration. What kinds of rockets should we have? Seems like from my minimal research there are a TON and we need to make some sort of generic system that is simple to understand. Like Aircraft we don't need every single type of rocket but should have a solid evolution of rockets.

I am open to ideas and suggestions on how this could work.

Note that I realize that when multi-maps are implemented that such units could need to somehow "teleport" to another map, but for now I want to use what we can with what we have.

 

[Pepo]

this seem great! i was thinking on some of these rockets ideas and the evolution
1: the first rockets should transport satelaites .they will work like in Bts,but they can be improved to spy enemies cities
2:rockets then improve to carry the first units(rovers)for lunar exploration and later mars-usefull to find cities locations for the future.also this rockets takes long to reach their location .also thr first to reach moob get a boost on building rockets
3bigger rockets appear that allow to carry the first lunar settlers and supplies.cities found on moon or mars are dependant on earth food(rockets need to go to the city and provide food for it)mars colonization should be harder but more rewarding over time
4once a player reach a really high teach,there will be a direct connection to earth improving trade,and decreasing revolution chances a lot(the chance of a revolution is increased with terraforming )
about rockets engines i have a few ideas:
chemical:earliest to unlock,slower,limited range, very expensive once bigger rockets are needed
nuclearsee project orion)fast an unexpensive.however all nations get angry with you after each launch,plus contaminated the orbit
solar flags: high tech .good speed but can only travel in the solar system
anti matter:high speed but expensive.space ships with this tech can explode until later techs are researched
that's are all my suggestions

 

[Hydromancerx]

Thanks for the feedback. I specifically am asking about types of rockets for the early eras. Like Delta rockets. Anything crazy and beyond what has not been invented or tested we can worry about later. I just mean the first stuff of getting satellites into Orbit and Men on the moon.

 

[Xavion333]

What's the point of them? While satellites should probably have the rockets included in their construction cost unless you have someway of coordinating unit or building requirements to require other buildings which would probably be overcomplicated anyway. The other is to do stuff like send people to the moon or to build reusable space shuttles for things like sending people to space stations and back, but what kind of benefit would there be? By the time you need to do it enmass for something like colonization you're far enough past current tech it's probably not too applicable. I can help come up with list and stuff but I just can't really see the why, just visiting the moon has little actual bonus historically outside of thins like cultural claims and the like but that would probably work best as moon landing wonders or projects as it has no real purpose outside of that gameplay wise that I can see.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The AI can't handle any transport units that don't transport across sea! So therefor it is not rockets that go to the moon but probes, landers and colonists.

Before we can handle space we need the goody hut stuff fixed. Otherwise the goody huts on the moon (crashed probes) will give you stone throwers.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The AI can't handle any transport units that don't transport across sea! So therefor it is not rockets that go to the moon but probes, landers and colonists.

Before we can handle space we need the goody hut stuff fixed. Otherwise the goody huts on the moon (crashed probes) will give you stone throwers.

1. Well at the north and south of the Earth sub-map there is an ocean, would that allows for the AI to understand that anything on the other side of the sea (aka orbit, space, mars and the moon) are colonization? If not how did they do it in the Future Mod?

2. The maps script seemed to make them on the Mars and Lunar maps but it appears as city ruins. However that's because we are lacking the crashed probe graphic. However they do say "Crashed Probes" if you highlight over them. As for what they give you that I already knew and figured we can eventually fix that. this stuff is a definite WIP and am glad that only those who want to use the special map script can see this stuff since its nowhere near finished. Normal maps should not even see all this stuff.

However when we do work all this stuff out it will be great to see it working when multi-maps are implemented. Rather than having to wait for multi-maps and then implementing.

3. Do you have any ideas on how to make the sub-maps show all the C2C terrain types?

4. I also know that the asteroid terrains from Final Frontier appear half underground sicne they were made for sea terrain made to look like space, but we cannot do that because of the waves and thus have space terrain as land terrain (like the Furture Mod did). So I am attempting to make a modified asteroid model that pushes them up on the Z axis so they can be seen again.

 

[Azurian]

Do you want the finished product or the complex parts the make up a Space Shuttle? There are like 6 parts.

Atmospheric Controller
Scientific Space Instruments
Space Computers
Waste and Hygiene Compartment
Subsystem Shielding Life Support
Booster Engine
Fuel Tanks
Atomic Clock

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am not sure. I don't know enough about them to say. I would say probably the finished product.

 

[Azurian]

I am not sure. I don't know enough about them to say. I would say probably the finished product.

It would be better to name the rockets after the Mission Callsign instead of the rocket design.

13th Century - Fireworks Rockets)
1448- Hwacha Rocket Launcher)
1798 - Indian Iron Rockets
1803 -Congreve rocket
1817-Zasyadko rocket
1923- Liquid fuel rocket
1934-A-2 rocket
1939-A-5 rocket
1944 V-2 Rocket
1949- A-9 (Intercontinental Ballistic Missile)
1951-Loki Rocket
1957-Sputnik 1 (Earth orbiter)
1957-Sputnik 2 with the dog, Laika, the first animal in space.
1958- Explorer 1, Pioneer Rocket, Vanguard Rocket
1959- Luna 1 the first probe to go near the Moon
1959-Luna 2 made first crash-landing on the Moon
1959- Luna 3 Far side of the Moon photographed
1960-Tiros 1 television weather satellite
1961-Vostok 1 First manned space-flight
1962-Mercury 6 First American orbital flight
1962- Ranger 4 got TV close-up pictures of the Moon.
1962-Telstar satellite Transatlantic television programs avaliable
1962-Venus probe Mariner 2 sends back close-range information about Venus.
1963-Polyot 1 First maneuverable satellite
1963-Syncom II, geosynchronous communications satellite
1964- Ranger 7 Close-range photographs of the Moon
1964-Nimbus 1 in polar orbit got complete world cloud cover each day.
1964-Mariner 4 got TV pictures of Mars
1965-First spacewalk
1965- Intelsat 1 first commercial communications satellite
1965- Proton 1 First cosmic-ray measurements outside the atmosphere
1965-Venera 3 First impact on Venus' surface
1965- Mariner 4 gets Close-range photographs of Mars
1965-Zond 3 Improved photographs of the Moon's far side
1965-Gemini 6-Successful space-docking operation
1966-by Luna 9- First soft landing on the Moon
1966-Orbiter 1 Improved close-range photographs of the Moon
1967-Surveyor 5 First chemical analysis of lunar soil
1968-Saturn 5 rocket
1968- Apollo 8 First flight round the Moon
1968- NASA OAO 2 orbiting astronomical observatory
1969- Soyuz 5 manned docking maneuver
1969-Venus 6 soft-landings of unmanned probes on Venus
1969- Apollo11 First men on the moon

1970-first unmanned lunar vehicle, Lunokhod 1, soft-landed by Soviet Luna 17
1970-Explorer 42 -X-ray survey of the sky
1971- Mars 2 first impact on Mars the planet
1971 Mars 3 first soft landing on Mars
1971-Mariner 9, first orbiter of Mars, which telemeter high-resolution TV pictures of the surface.
1972- Pioneer 10 for first Jupiter fly
1972-Apollo 16- First astronomical telescope on the Moon
1972-ERTS First color-image of Earth
1972-Copernicus Telescope
1972- Apollo 17 Last manned landing on Moon

1973-Skylab in Earth orbit made many astronomical observations and engineering experiments performed by three crews in visits as long as 85 days.

1973-Mars 4, 5, and 6, of which Mars 5 soft landed on Mars
1973-Mariner 10 launched for Venus and Mercury fly-bys.

1974-Helios 1 to orbit sun

1975-Soviet Union launched Venera 9 and 10 to orbit Venus; Venera-9 lander reached the surface October 22 and transmitted the first pictures from another planet's surface.

1975-Vikings 1 and 2 to make first analysis of Martian soil.

1980-NASA Space Shuttle (Columbia) to be used repeatedly.

1980-Voyager I reaches Saturn, sent back spectacular pictures of the rings and discovered many new moons.

1981-The first of the powerful Intelsat V communications satellites

1983 International infrared astronomy satellite IRAS discovered comets, possible new solar systems.

1983- European X-ray satellite Exosat

1983-Pioneer 10 becomes the first probe to venture into interstellar space when it crossed the orbit of the outermost planet, Neptune.
1984 -

First human to orbit Earth and become first human satellite, Bruce McCandless (U.S.A.).
1985 -

First probe to reach a comet (USA).
1986 -

First probe to reach Uranus (USA).
1987 -

First permanently-occupied space station, Space Station MIR (USSR).
1988 -

Longest manned space-flight - 365 days by cosmonauts Titov and Manarov (USSR).
1989 -

First probe to reach Neptune - Voyager 2 (USA)

You have 5 main Generations of Space Exploration (American)
Generation 0 1915-1958 (National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics)
Generation I 1958-1989 ( National Aeronautics and Space Act)
Generation II 1989-1996 ( Space Exploration Initiative)
Generation III 1996-2005 (U.S. National Space Policy )
Generation IV 2005-2020 (Vision for Space Exploration)

Rockets (Global)

Generation V (1942 -V-2 rocket)
Generation VI (1957-first ICBM)
Generation VII (1957-first artificial satellites Sputnik 1, Explorer 1 , Jupiter C Rocket)
Generation VIII (1961-first man to orbit earth, Vostok 1, Redstone rocket , Freedom 7 )
Generation IV (1963-US X-15 rocket-plane, USSR Proton rocket, Salyut 6 & Salyut 7, Mir , and International Spacestation Alpha)
Generation X (1966, USSR Luna 9(landed on moon), Soyuz spacecraft, - US Apollo 11, first men on the Moon)
Generation XI (1981- Space Shuttle, its reusable and can glide to earth. )
Generation XII ( 1998-US Deep Space 1, uses ion thruster for propulsion)
Generation XIII (2001-Zarya, Russian Soyuz spacecraft sent the first space tourist)
Generation XIV (2004-manned (suborbital) spaceflight, SpaceShipOne )
Generation XX (SpaceX Falcon 9, Dragon Rocket ).

 

[Azurian]

The problem with launch orbital systems (what you know as rockets) is that they constantly change and evolved fast.

If you are sending a probe to Venus call it Verena, for Moon call it Luna and for Mars Mariner. For space exploration use Voyager.

 

[Azurian]

I asked the guys in the Space Cadets thread and we are having a discussion on the major rocket designs.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12818581

 

[Hydromancerx]

Its not that I was trying to find a common similarity between the rocket types no matter which country built them and what missions they were on. You this above is not helpful since I found the same thing.

I mean should we just have say Delta type rockets all called liked "Early Rockets" or "Launch Rockets". Something generic rather than specific names like Saturn 5 or Apollo 16.

EDIT: Or maybe we should just call them ELV Rockets.

 

[Azurian]

Well good luck with that, there are no generic orbit launch system types, each rocket design was for a specific mission and disposable .

American, European, Germany, Britain all launched rockets.

The only reusable design was Space Shuttle and Dragon /SpaceshipOne

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yeah I think I will just keep it as a single "ELV Rocket" unit. It can later upgrade into spaceships which can launch themselves. It can basically represent the first type of Transport unit for space.

 

[Azurian]

Yeah I think I will just keep it as a single "ELV Rocket" unit. It can later upgrade into spaceships which can launch themselves. It can basically represent the first type of Transport unit for space.

Well
ElV Rocket
Space Shuttle
Commercial Spaceshuttle

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well the Space Shuttle could be put as Cargo for an EIV Rocket.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah I think I will just keep it as a single "ELV Rocket" unit. It can later upgrade into spaceships which can launch themselves. It can basically represent the first type of Transport unit for space.

The ELV was actually a program and not a specific rocket, in fact it spawned 3 rockets, the Atlas 5, the Delta IV and the Delta IV heavy. If you just want generic rockets, I'd just give them generic names such as 'Small Satellite Launcher' 'Manned Capsule Launcher' 'Moon Landing Rocket' and so on.

If you don't care about historical progression but want something less generic that also shows a progression of abilities, I'd probably go:
V-2, Soyuz, Saturn V, Space Shuttle

If you do care about historical progression then you'll have to break up the list by nationality.

<copypasta'd from space cadet thread)

The American List would go:
V-2 --> Atlas --> Saturn V --> Space Shuttle

Everyone can lay claim to the V-2 in some way because even though it's technically German, everyone used it and built off of it. The V-2 gives you a basic rocket. The Atlas gets small missions to orbit. The Saturn V gets you to the moon and launches large, monolithic stations such as Skylab. The Space Shuttle gives you large modular stations like the ISS and medium payloads to orbit and some interplanetary probes. If you want to get a more detailed and flexible list, you will have to include the Delta series, probably between Saturn V and the Shuttle. It was developed originally as the Thor before the Saturn V but really hit it's stride as an interplanetary launcher around the Shuttle era. They've launched a lot of interplanetary probes with it. They used to use the Titan II/III system too but that's probably too much for the list.

The Russian list would go:

V-2 --> R-7/Soyuz --> Proton

The R-7/Soyuz gives you small to medium missions in orbit. The proton gives you medium to medium-heavy space station missions like the ISS and Mir (though it doesn't fly manned missions). They both can launch interplanetary probes. There are some others such as Zenit that they use but not as often and they aren't nearly as important.

The European Space Agency's list goes:
V-2 --> Ariane 1-4 ---> Ariane 5 <--- Ariane 6

Ariane 1-4 give you small-medium missions in orbit (none manned). Ariane 5 gets you medium/medium-heavy missions to orbit (none manned). Ariane 6 takes you backwards

 

[Hydromancerx]

Thanks for the explanation hobbsyoyo.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

No problem.