Role Playing Challenge: Ghengis Kahn I

[slobberinbear]

Because Gilgamesh is Creative, Eridu's borders will pop soon. I think you need to settle on the iron or within one tile of it. I like the tile 1 SE of the iron; plenty of food, blocks off Gilgamesh, and is within 4 tiles of Eridu so that if you decide to capture (not raze) Eridu, you can do so.

 

[madscientist]

The mighty Kahn ponders the advice of his generals. "Yes, iron is essential to the mongol need, we cannot afford to lose it and shall settle on top. Let us see what this Summerian is made of, if his people have the strength of the lion they will make good Mongol warriors."

(Glad everyone agrees on settling on the iron, I thought so but wanted some feedback first. I also welcome ALL suggestions, this is a fun challenge game. I also hope it's a way for me to get better listening to advice from teh better players, while at the same time helping posters who are looking to get better. I can play a good game at space races, culture, and diplomacy but tend to be a sloppy, if fairly competant war monger. What I want to become is an efficient and great war monger, hence a big reason for this challenge!!! What better way than through the great Kahn!!

So my plan is to settle on the iron, build the road to city #2, tech sailing, finish the second worker, then start chopping out some military. Also, I have not switched to slavery yet, at this point is it worth the 2 turns of anarchy or should I just chop out the horde?)

"The Sword and the Axe, the Sword and the AXE, roars the mighty Kahn, let the horde start forming"

 

[madscientist]

Because Gilgamesh is Creative, Eridu's borders will pop soon. I think you need to settle on the iron or within one tile of it. I like the tile 1 SE of the iron; plenty of food, blocks off Gilgamesh, and is within 4 tiles of Eridu so that if you decide to capture (not raze) Eridu, you can do so.

The Great Kahn grunts, keep Eridu?, Bah and spits on the ground. However, these Sumemrian lions would make good Mongols.

(Eridu has gotta go. Part of the role-play deal, the Great Kahn will keep capitals, holy cities, and the occasional good productive city. Eridu is a yak dung infested refuge and shall be razed. The capital will defeinitely be kept I think.

I am aware of the creative trait which is another reason to settle farther away from Eridu, on the iron. I was planning to bring the horde to the Summerian capital first then backtrack and raze Eridu. I am pretty sure the capital is NOT on a hill. I'll post before I start the invasion to get some military advice, right now I need the iron hooked up and an army.)

 

[Diamondeye]

@ Diamondeye: I really like your storytelling, keep up the good work . One question though, have you read 'Wolf of the plains'?

First of all; thanks. Second; yes, I am a big fan of Conn Iggulden's books, but I prefer to read them in danish ("Ulven fra Stepperne"). I also read all four "Emperor" books (in danish, although the wait was hard ).
I base my historical notes off "Wolf of the plains", the Warlords scenario "Djenghis Khan", Wikipedia, and common knowledge. If you're a sweetheart and happen to have "Wolf of the Plains" yourself, please PM me the name of Temüdjin's other brothers. I forgot them and left the book somewhere Up atleast 30 steps of stairs. Phew.

Anyways, here goes.
Chapter Two: Eridu - The Sumerian Outpost

Spoiler :

As Boke walked around in the city, guided only by the faint moonlight, he was nearly invisbile. He was a tall, slim mongol, and was one of the most agile of his tribe. While he seemed weak, or atleast lazy, at first glance, you'd soon notice the positure of a proud warrior, and the bundles of muscles on his upper arms. He was in good shape - He had walked all the way to Eridu by foot, as the Mongols did not yet have access to horses. He was embarrassed by this, even more was the Khan himself. The mongolian word for "walking (by foot)" was of the origin "to be poor". Go figure. The mongols prized horses above nearly anything else. Only the finest of bows were comparable to the bona of riding a good steed. It provided fast travel, a source of food for atleast a couple of days (the Keshik drank the blood of their horses from slim wounds on the sides of the front legs, and closed the wound by mixing the dust of the plains with water to prodive a red dough as "bandage").
Boke looked around the town square again. Nope, only a few small stalls and a local toolsmith was here. There were no signs of smelting or transporting large quantities of metal - yet. He looked down the alleys just to be sure, and then settled off to reach the Mongol land as fast as possible. He stopped dead in his tracks when he saw two figures at the city gates. It had been easy climbing the palisasde from outside, but from inside there were no rocks or trees to use. The two men bore weapons. Large clubs made of worn oak.
Bokes heart skipped as the men turned towards him. The tallest of them spoke with a rough Sumerian accent: "What are you doing at this time of night, civilian? Get back to your hut immidietly."
Boke was relieved. Due to the darkness he had not been recognized as a Mongol. He tried to fake the Sumerian accent as he came up with an answer:
"My son... Has run off during the night. I want to go look for him outside the village. He likes to play near the water north-east of here, and I fear for his safety - it is near the tribe of those mongolian pigs."
The guard did still look suspicious.
"What is his name?"
"My son? ...His name is... Gilgamesh."
Boke was sweating. The guard smiled at the reply and stepped aside.
"Named after our glorious leader. I hope he is okay."
"Thankyou", Boke said as he hastened out of the village. He had important news to tell the Khan. The Sumerians had clearly not understood the value of the precious metals between Eridu and the Mongol border. The horde would win a big advantage by settling a new village near the vein. And then they would finally be able to wipe the arrogant smiles off the Sumerians.

 

[sirhanselot]

I was planning to bring the horde to the Summerian capital first then backtrack and raze Eridu. I am pretty sure the capital is NOT on a hill. I'll post before I start the invasion to get some military advice, right now I need the iron hooked up and an army.)

Sounds like a plan. Do we know if Gilgamesh has access to copper or horses? If he doesn't have copper, we don't really need Axes with shock promotions right now. If we're not sure about the horses, you might want to bring a spear or two, so the swords can concentrate on city attack.

What do you want to leave in the capitol once you take it? Will you bring archers for this purpose?

PS, I am aware of the fact that my remarks are pretty straightforward and you'll probably figure out all of this yourself. I like to post to feel involved in the thread and to recieve some occasional feedback if I say something stupid..
If this is anoying, please let me know!

 

[madscientist]

Sounds like a plan. Do we know if Gilgamesh has access to copper or horses? If he doesn't have copper, we don't really need Axes with shock promotions right now. If we're not sure about the horses, you might want to bring a spear or two, so the swords can concentrate on city attack.

What do you want to leave in the capitol once you take it? Will you bring archers for this purpose?

PS, I am aware of the fact that my remarks are pretty straightforward and you'll probably figure out all of this yourself. I like to post to feel involved in the thread and to recieve some occasional feedback if I say something stupid..
If this is anoying, please let me know!

The Great Kahn welcomes all advice!!!

(Seriously, post as often as you want, all are welcome. As mush as I can tell, Gilgamesh has no copper or horse but I cannot see what is in his core capital. Seince we are teching pretty fast with the gold and seafood commerce, I am guessing he is not near iron working yet (We teched all military techs except for fishing). I probaly will look up what GiLG starts with, I seam to remember at least agriculture. He will also have to hook up whatever he gets with either a road (meaning he needs the wheel) or a river (meaning he needs fishing and sailing). He did settle Eridu with a warrior. Note if he still has only a warrior when I bring the horde, I'll take Eridu out with an axe.

My plan is to get the last worker done and the barracks. Once we tech sailing and have the road built, I am looking at one combat 2 spear, 2 unpromoted axes, the rest unpromoted swords.

The unpromoted Swordsmen are because I do not know what to expect. Cover is a 25% edge against archers, while CR I is 20% to city. Now if after battle I can upgrade to CRII which is an additional 30%, total 50% against city units; compared to the cover promoted guys going to CR I for a total of 45%. Also if I am surprized with Vulture I can get the shock promotion ASAP. Depends what the defenses are once I penetrate the capital BFC.

The axes are unpromoted, again because of the potential vultures.

The Spears I want the maximum defense in case I get surpirzed with fast moving chariots os they get promoted to combat II, which leads to the formation promotion next.)

 

[slobberinbear]

I don't see Gilgamesh having anything worse than Combat I Vultures and City Garrison II / Drill I Archers.

 

[madscientist]

I don't see Gilgamesh having anything worse than Combat I Vultures and City Garrison II / Drill I Archers.

(I agree, I think I would have seen a chariot already.

Assuming the capital is NOT on a hill this is way I figure

CGII archer has a net +120%, not including culture (20% or 40%)
Cover Mongol Sword +35% plus the 10% combat
Net +85% to archer plus culture, which means
6.6:5.55 without culture
6.6:6.15 with 20% culture
6.6:6.75 with 40% culture
So either way all swords get cover until all archers are injured, then I give then the CR I promotion since they should likely survive and get the CR II promotion. This sound reasonable

Combat Vultures: 10% + 25% vs melee + 25% dig in, not including culture
Shock Mongol Axe: +75% Melee, +10% combat
5.5:5.1 without culture
5.5:6.3 with 20% culture
5.5:7.5 with 40% culture
So axes take Shock until the vultures are gone

So the mongol have all advantag until the culture kicks in, then we have to account for sacrificed mongol warriors.

Looking at 9 swords, 3 axes, 1 Spear in the Horde. Once the horde starts moving build axes in each city to defend against the counter attack.

Sounds reasonable?)

 

[slobberinbear]

The problem is that when attacking a stack you can't pick your defender, the AI does. If you make a cover swordsman, the AI will likely match you up against a Vulture, not an Archer. The reverse is true too: if you make a shock axe/sword, you'll get matched against an Archer.

Taking the City Raider promotions from the start avoids that problem by giving you a (slightly smaller) generic bonus against all defender types.

In Eridu, these issues will probably be irrelevant as it's a newer city that probably lacks copper for Vultures, so you'll just face a few unpromoted protective archers on a city hill (as if that isn't bad enough). In that example, taking cover makes sense because you know what you're facing.

It's when you get to the capital that you'll deal with the mixed stack problems.

Spoiler :

A Combat I / CR I Swordsman vs. a Combat I Vulture, fortified, 40% culture:

6 x 1.1 = 6.6, (30% defender reduction) vs.
Vulture modifiers: +25% melee, +25% fortified, +40% culture -30% attacker mods = +80%. 6 x 1.8 = 10.8.

6.6:10.8, or a 38% chance of success.

Compare that with your Combat I / Shock Axe, who has a roughly 42% chance of success. The way the rounds of combat work, this is a bigger difference than it sounds. Axes are also cheaper to produce.

The trick is in making your initial attack units as generically powerful as possible so that the "best defender" rule doesn't hurt you too much. In other words, (and I haven't done the math) it may be that a Combat I / CR I Swordsman is your best first attacker, because his odds aganist the Vulture are better than your Shock Axe's odds against the Archer.

So I would do it in reverse: promote for CR first, then follow up with the "countering" promotion/unit type when you know for sure what you'll be fighting.

 

[madscientist]

The problem is that when attacking a stack you can't pick your defender, the AI does. If you make a cover swordsman, the AI will likely match you up against a Vulture, not an Archer. The reverse is true too: if you make a shock axe/sword, you'll get matched against an Archer.

Taking the City Raider promotions from the start avoids that problem by giving you a (slightly smaller) generic bonus against all defender types.

In Eridu, these issues will probably be irrelevant as it's a newer city that probably lacks copper for Vultures, so you'll just face a few unpromoted protective archers on a city hill (as if that isn't bad enough). In that example, taking cover makes sense because you know what you're facing.

It's when you get to the capital that you'll deal with the mixed stack problems.

Spoiler :

A Combat I / CR I Swordsman vs. a Combat I Vulture, fortified, 40% culture:

6 x 1.1 = 6.6, (30% defender reduction) vs.
Vulture modifiers: +25% melee, +25% fortified, +40% culture -30% attacker mods = +80%. 6 x 1.8 = 10.8.

6.6:10.8, or a 38% chance of success.

Compare that with your Combat I / Shock Axe, who has a roughly 42% chance of success. The way the rounds of combat work, this is a bigger difference than it sounds. Axes are also cheaper to produce.

The trick is in making your initial attack units as generically powerful as possible so that the "best defender" rule doesn't hurt you too much. In other words, (and I haven't done the math) it may be that a Combat I / CR I Swordsman is your best first attacker, because his odds aganist the Vulture are better than your Shock Axe's odds against the Archer.

So I would do it in reverse: promote for CR first, then follow up with the "countering" promotion/unit type when you know for sure what you'll be fighting.

( OK, I got you. I'll defeinitely do the promotions just before I attack the city. I see the point about using CG I Swords for the vultures. If I promote for shock the AI will pop up the archer to defend, if I take cover the vulture pops up.

I am pretty certain he doesn't have copper though.)

 

[KMadCandy]

Also, I have not switched to slavery yet, at this point is it worth the 2 turns of anarchy or should I just chop out the horde?)

i'd definitely want to be in slavery before the war. do you mean you'd not go slavery at all pre-war? if so, regrowth on marathon is more painful than i thought. i don't ever play marathon so i don't have a feel for that. it depends on what that city looks like in military production mode (i can't tell since it's making a worker now). looks good and whippable to me tho judging by terrain.

oh hey, it's making a worker. how long until the worker comes out? you can likely whip him sooner, even with the anarchy. that'd give you another chopper sooner, a good thing. so losing turns to anarchy = chopping out the horde faster even if you don't later whip much of the horde.

ps the actual answer is do it while the settler walks to his spot so that only one city loses production but it's too late *giggle*.

 

[madscientist]

Mighty Kahn in his infinite wisdom settles in place!!! Researching the knowledge of sailing, and building road to connect of great cities. Soon the Great Kahn meets yet another week and sickly leader...

Mighty Kahn spits on the ground but agrees to peace. For now! "This one has strange beliefs, we shall wait and see what these gods are."

The Great Kahn orders the building of the great Horde after creating magnificent buildings to instruct his Mongols in these 2 cities. At last the Horde is complete

"Let us see what the Lion-faced one has. What is his bite!!!" The Great Kahn arrives at the city of Eridu

Does the Mighty Kahn show mercy to the lice infested yak-dung heap??

The Great Kahn says nothing, desolation answers the question as he moves onto the capital of these Summerians. Better fortified but without the natural defense of Eridu. AND,,, the precious black metal not even mined. Mighty Kahn orders the city surrounded, pillaging the yak camp while he awaits his blood-hardened warriors from Eridu's assault to join the battle. Uruk offers little defense and quickly fall. What will the Great Kahn do?

"These Summerians are led by a dog, not a lion. However, these Summerians will make good Mongol soldiers, we will spare such a prize."

The Mighty Kahn assaults the final Summerian city of Kish, population of 1 with one lone archer. After razing the puny city, the Summerian is no more!!! The horde awaits word on what the Great Kahn does next, as he glances acroos the Desert to the one dressed in fine red clothes. "Tribute, we need tribute to feed our mighty mongol warriors"

(So here we are!! The fool Summerian is dead, and we have his capital of Uruk. With sailing we already have a trade route and only need to build the cows back up and mine the iron. If you noticed on the city screen just before battle, Old GILGY had about 22 turns left to tech IW and he had it in his BFC!! Good time for battle. I switched to slavery as soon as I launched the attacked

Went to war with 9 Swords, 2 Axes, 1 Spear. Ended with 6 Swords, 2 Axes, 1 Spear.

Tech we went: sailing/mysticism/pottery/writing/masonry/agriculture and currently working alphabet if for anything at least for espionage and perhaps a trade before one of the 2 remaining AIs tick of the Great Kahn.

We also have a new AI to join our party, a good old religious zealot. Let's hope we can found Conf or Phil so the Mighty Kahn can have a good ols religious war!!!

On the home front we just finished a workboat and sent it off to the northern island in search of horse. We are also building a Galley in hopes of sending a warrior up there to pop some huts. There are now three cities with one settler waiting for a home. If there are no horses to the north I will settle him east of the capital to work the additional Gold/Wheat/Stone. I think it's too late to get the Great Wall but we can try, if it's lost we'll get some well needed gold. The second gold mine is almost built and I fully expect Joao to be demanding it for tribute, speaking of which...

Where do we go next?? There is a stack of swords and axes within marching distance of Lisbon. A quick stroke to damage the portugese? Wait and buildup? Some hit a run tactics with swords and axes? Perhaps behind that Lisbon fog there lies our needed ponies?

Whay say you all?)

 

[madscientist]

i'd definitely want to be in slavery before the war. do you mean you'd not go slavery at all pre-war? if so, regrowth on marathon is more painful than i thought. i don't ever play marathon so i don't have a feel for that. it depends on what that city looks like in military production mode (i can't tell since it's making a worker now). looks good and whippable to me tho judging by terrain.

oh hey, it's making a worker. how long until the worker comes out? you can likely whip him sooner, even with the anarchy. that'd give you another chopper sooner, a good thing. so losing turns to anarchy = chopping out the horde faster even if you don't later whip much of the horde.

ps the actual answer is do it while the settler walks to his spot so that only one city loses production but it's too late *giggle*.

You see how it turned out, I read your post too late. I had to wait for the cities to communicate, which was 16 turns for sailing (took about 8 turns more to build the road). While waiting for sailing I built the two barracks, which finished just as I got sailing. I chopped almost all the swords with 2 workers, and slow built 1 spear and 1 axe in the new city.

Switched to slavery as soon as the war started, this way I could whip immediate defenses if something went wrong. The only time I whipped was a minument in the second city once pop2 hit.

Yes, at marathon speed I very carefully use the whip, mostly for building or emergency city protection.

 

[TRJS]

Great Khan I am humbled by your easy dominance of the funny man. Might I now suggest we learn more of this one who calls himself Justaman. He may have the coveted horse flesh we seek hidden in the fog.

(100 posts, shh don't tell my wife, or my boss)

 

[KMadCandy]

You see how it turned out, I read your post too late. I had to wait for the cities to communicate, which was 16 turns for sailing (took about 8 turns more to build the road). While waiting for sailing I built the two barracks, which finished just as I got sailing. I chopped almost all the swords with 2 workers, and slow built 1 spear and 1 axe in the new city.

Switched to slavery as soon as the war started, this way I could whip immediate defenses if something went wrong. The only time I whipped was a minument in the second city once pop2 hit.

Yes, at marathon speed I very carefully use the whip, mostly for building or emergency city protection.

it worked out just fine, you were victorious ! the dork didn't leave us any workers to capture tho grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

"The second gold mine is almost built and I fully expect Joao to be demanding it for tribute"
i think but do not know for sure that if you have only one of something they can't demand it as tribute? unless you're a vassal which as the human you'd not be, even if you weren't the Great Khan. but we'll have a second iron at uruk soon anyway, without a road you can't trade the spare gold for anything if you do want to be nice to one, so i'd probably road it while you're there.

oh yeah ... a demand for tribute might be fun. an excuse (as if we need one) for war!

you're trade connected to both. trade screen has no info about copper since we don't have any. but it does show that neither one has iron hooked up yet ! could be they don't know IW.

both of the fools left remaining are imperialistic, so they get a bonus on settlers. the jerks are going to build a lot of cities to get in our way. yay! they'll make cities for us to conquer!

"If there are no horses to the north I will settle him east of the capital to work the additional Gold/Wheat/Stone."

you haven't entirely fogbusted the water there. i'd step onto the actual desert tile and stone tile first, to see if there's seafood out there. if there is, settling on the stone (which loses you a quarry but saves you worker time and gains you a hammer in the city tile) might reach it where the desert wouldn't. it would lose you the working the gold so it still might not be worth it unless there's 2. but settling 2N of stone to get gold makes settling the stone in the future illegal, so you'd miss a shot at any potential seafood out there to the east. just a quirk of mine that i like to be fully informed of stuff like that, it's irreversible, and i see tons of people not do that type of "complete seafood check". the Great Khan of course knows what's best for his overall plan. then add in that seafood = whippage isn't as true on marathon as i'm used to .

i do of course prefer ponies in the north!

 

[madscientist]

it worked out just fine, you were victorious !

"The second gold mine is almost built and I fully expect Joao to be demanding it for tribute"
i think but do not know for sure that if you have only one of something they can't demand it as tribute? unless you're a vassal which as the human you'd not be, even if you weren't the Great Khan. i can't see it tho, and if it's on a river it'll be connected without a road, and you can't pillage the road on the first even if you were crazy enough to pillage the mine itself.

both of the fools left remaining are imperialistic, so they get a bonus on settlers. the jerks are going to build a lot of cities to get in our way. yay! they'll make cities for us to conquer!

(I didn't realize that, but all three of us are Imperialistic!!! That's OK, more cities to pillage.

Not sure if it was ever obvious but there was a second gold source near the capital, but outside the BFC. That's the one I mining so it's setup for city #4 (if the ponies continue to be elusive) along with wheat so it will pay for itself real fast. That would make 2 gold, of which I am defeinitely sure Joao will demand and about 75% certain Justinian will want.)

 

[madscientist]

Great Khan I am humbled by your easy dominance of the funny man. Might I now suggest we learn more of this one who calls himself Justaman. He may have the coveted horse flesh we seek hidden in the fog.

(100 posts, shh don't tell my wife, or my boss)

(Unfortunately the Great Kahn was a bit distacted with the yak-dung shoveling Summerian leader to notice where the vampire came from. He's probably NW or SW of Joao although there is a chance he came by boat from the NE island. We'll find out about the northen island soon, but I'm not about to kill the economy taking a city very far away. )

 

[TRJS]

(Unfortunately the Great Kahn was a bit distacted with the yak-dung shoveling Summerian leader to notice where the vampire came from. He's probably NW or SW of Joao although there is a chance he came by boat from the NE island. We'll find out about the northen island soon, but I'm not about to kill the economy taking a city very far away. )

What about Jao's land? I just want to see some horse action.

 

[madscientist]

What about Jao's land? I just want to see some horse action.

(Unless in Lisbon's BFC, probably not. Patience, it's the Mongol spirit that will lead to victory, horses are just a tool. If the Mighty Kahn has to wait until Tanks to get a ride, he will wait.)

 

[KMadCandy]

i went into an editing frenzy on my original reply while you were replying to me and TRJS btw *giggle*.

(Unfortunately the Great Kahn was a bit distacted with the yak-dung shoveling Summerian leader to notice where the vampire came from. He's probably NW or SW of Joao although there is a chance he came by boat from the NE island. We'll find out about the northen island soon, but I'm not about to kill the economy taking a city very far away. )

Justin had met Gilga, you have a -1 DoWd our friend (i loaded the save and looked at diplo and the map). not that that answers the question, but i found it intriguing. the screenshot with his ugly face, that's his boat N of the northern clams at your capital?