Rome

[Txurce]

I used to really like Legions, I would make iron working my 6th or 7th tech, build them really early and just dominate. What I've realized is that you can do that with regular swordsmen too. Legions are good mostly because they replace a good unit. There isn't really anything game changing about them, at 2 movement its tough to build roads with them.

March was suggested above and would have great synergy with road construction. Currently I often think about building a road but decide to spend the turn healing instead. With march you could do both

Early swordsmen are what I beeline for now as well. But the problem with giving the Legion March or anything else that's significant, is that Rome does well enough already.

 

[ElliotS]

Early swordsmen are what I beeline for now as well. But the problem with giving the Legion March or anything else that's significant, is that Rome does well enough already.

I don't think they're in danger of becoming OP if Legion gets buffed a little, as it's currently one of the worst UUs in terms of improvement over a vanilla unit. They're still better than almost any UU that comes in Renaissance or later imo, because of the nature of early vs late value, but they're so minutely better than regular swordsmen that I'd take most similar era UUs over them.

March would be awesome, but it might be too much, even if you replaced cover with it. I'd hazard to guess that it would, even if you removed their bonus CS. I mean, that would allow you to go straight drill and get Stalwart+Blitz, which is an insane combo with March.

I think Drill 1 and maybe +2 XP from combat.

 

[kawyua]

Combat bonuses are good and all, but roads!
I want roads. I like roads. But legions don't do enough to support it.

I reeeaaallly like the idea of a uu that can build roads. But its so expensive and time consuming to use during a seige.

I would play rome so much if they had maybe something near 50% road maintenance reduction. then ill stack it with the 50% discount from authority

then, everywhere! roads and roads! the world would be my oyster! ah roads are fun.
Why is this not a valid idea? I see it pop up here, but it just gets disregarded...

in reality it is just some saved up extra gpt...

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I've played games with Legions with Drill and they still didn't feel like a super good UU, so it's not like such an addition would turn them OP. Taking -1 CS could make it even less of a potential problem, but as it is right now they are very unimpressive.

Combat bonuses are good and all, but roads!
I want roads. I like roads. But legions don't do enough to support it.

I reeeaaallly like the idea of a uu that can build roads. But its so expensive and time consuming to use during a seige.

I would play rome so much if they had maybe something near 50% road maintenance reduction. then ill stack it with the 50% discount from authority

then, everywhere! roads and roads! the world would be my oyster! ah roads are fun.
Why is this not a valid idea? I see it pop up here, but it just gets disregarded...

in reality it is just some saved up extra gpt...

Colosseum already buffs up city connections and as a result roads are also indirectly buffed, but it's pretty small. Before the city connection nerf it could've meant something, but now 2% of nearly nothing per Colosseum remains nearly nothing until it's so late, it doesn't matter much. It's okay though, Colosseum is seriously good even with that feature not being too impressive.

 

[kawyua]

Colosseum already buffs up city connections and as a result roads are also indirectly buffed, but it's pretty small. Before the city connection nerf it could've meant something, but now 2% of nearly nothing per Colosseum remains nearly nothing until it's so late, it doesn't matter much. It's okay though, Colosseum is seriously good even with that feature not being too impressive.

I think the frustration is getting to that point where everything comes together.

Colosseum is very good. So good that in many cases, it is worthwhile to beeline for masonry. And then? "Oh I should get iron working!"

So, you get legions. They are nice. Woo some roads!. But there is so much infrastructure that needs to be built! And there isn't enough time or money or power to do anything with legions.

If there is a chance to go to war, it is possible to get a satellite city. But then? ohoho longswordsman come up and legions are only strong enough to stand toe to toe with them. Legions are stopped dead in the tracks and any hopes of the spoils of war are gone.

The timing window is too short. Or am I playing them wrong?

If there is a good time for a legion I would want it somewhere when I get currency. If legion was at currency and maybe replaced the longswordsman (So they get it a tech earlier) instead they would have a strong window for their uu. Now something like this would be so useful.

If I were to sum my feelings, Colosseums and legions are uncomfortably close to each other. Both requiring a ton of production makes it like I'm put at a crossroad. Do I go legion? Or should I go Colosseum? But you can't do both. Not quickly enough.

 

[Funak]

I think the frustration is getting to that point where everything comes together.

Colosseum is very good. So good that in many cases, it is worthwhile to beeline for masonry. And then? "Oh I should get iron working!"

So, you get legions. They are nice. Woo some roads!. But there is so much infrastructure that needs to be built! And there isn't enough time or money or power to do anything with legions.

If there is a chance to go to war, it is possible to get a satellite city. But then? ohoho longswordsman come up and legions are only strong enough to stand toe to toe with them. Legions are stopped dead in the tracks and any hopes of the spoils of war are gone.

The timing window is too short. Or am I playing them wrong?

If there is a good time for a legion I would want it somewhere when I get currency. If legion was at currency and maybe replaced the longswordsman (So they get it a tech earlier) instead they would have a strong window for their uu. Now something like this would be so useful.

If I were to sum my feelings, Colosseums and legions are uncomfortably close to each other. Both requiring a ton of production makes it like I'm put at a crossroad. Do I go legion? Or should I go Colosseum? But you can't do both. Not quickly enough.

This is partially it. In general the swordsman era is just bad for declaring war, catapults takes forever to beat down walls, which are always in place once you get to mathematics and ironworking. I mean Trebuchets unlock before castles, and completely blows walls away, cannons unlock before arsenal and completely blows castles away. These two timings are just way better for declaring war, and the legion UU is nowhere near powerful enough to actually change that.

 

[ElliotS]

This is partially it. In general the swordsman era is just bad for declaring war, catapults takes forever to beat down walls, which are always in place once you get to mathematics and ironworking. I mean Trebuchets unlock before castles, and completely blows walls away, cannons unlock before arsenal and completely blows castles away. These two timings are just way better for declaring war, and the legion UU is nowhere near powerful enough to actually change that.

Swordsmen take walled cities very easily, especially with Drill. Kill their army, surround their city and beat it down. Especially if you can blockade the city. This includes walled capitals on hills, though Drill is a big deal there.

Even if the first few hits look like they'll hurt your units too much, it tends to work. Once the garrisoned unit dies the city falls very quickly, even more so if it's blockaded.

 

[tu_79]

I think the frustration is getting to that point where everything comes together.

Colosseum is very good. So good that in many cases, it is worthwhile to beeline for masonry. And then? "Oh I should get iron working!"

So, you get legions. They are nice. Woo some roads!. But there is so much infrastructure that needs to be built! And there isn't enough time or money or power to do anything with legions.

If there is a chance to go to war, it is possible to get a satellite city. But then? ohoho longswordsman come up and legions are only strong enough to stand toe to toe with them. Legions are stopped dead in the tracks and any hopes of the spoils of war are gone.

The timing window is too short. Or am I playing them wrong?

If there is a good time for a legion I would want it somewhere when I get currency. If legion was at currency and maybe replaced the longswordsman (So they get it a tech earlier) instead they would have a strong window for their uu. Now something like this would be so useful.

If I were to sum my feelings, Colosseums and legions are uncomfortably close to each other. Both requiring a ton of production makes it like I'm put at a crossroad. Do I go legion? Or should I go Colosseum? But you can't do both. Not quickly enough.

You missed a balancing discussion we had last year. We wanted that swordsman had a different role than horseman. So one focus for swordsman is tanking, and the other is city taking. Not that the horseman can't defend a tile or take a city, but the swordsman does it much better. If you don't believe, produce 4 swordsman, and perhaps train an archer or two into healers and try ElliotS suggestion.
In top of that, even if you happen to have nothing to fight, you can still upgrade to a longswordsman with free Cover.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind Legions building roads faster or cheaper than workers. It would encourage using them for roads, too.

 

[kawyua]

You missed a balancing discussion we had last year. We wanted that swordsman had a different role than horseman. So one focus for swordsman is tanking, and the other is city taking. Not that the horseman can't defend a tile or take a city, but the swordsman does it much better. If you don't believe, produce 4 swordsman, and perhaps train an archer or two into healers and try ElliotS suggestion.
In top of that, even if you happen to have nothing to fight, you can still upgrade to a longswordsman with free Cover.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind Legions building roads faster or cheaper than workers. It would encourage using them for roads, too.

I... don't really follow. Why bring up horseman?

legions are nice, but they don't have the speed compared to horseman. faster roads would be nice, too.

 

[ElliotS]

What if Rome traded their % to buildings in the capital for no road maintenance, workers building roads in 1 turn and legions got "Double movement and ignore ZoC on roads, can use enemy roads."?

Legions would be unique, colosseums would be worth more, and all roads would lead to Rome yet again.

Thoughts?

 

[CrazyG]

What if Rome traded their % to buildings in the capital for no road maintenance, workers building roads in 1 turn and legions got "Double movement and ignore ZoC on roads, can use enemy roads."?

Legions would be unique, colosseums would be worth more, and all roads would lead to Rome yet again.

Thoughts?

I don't like the idea of roads being totally free, it encourages you to build huge clusters of them, at which point they don't really look like roads. Honestly I liked the % to buildings in capital more than I ever liked the conquest bonuses.

Being able to use enemy roads would be a cool addition. A mobility boost would help compensate a swordsman's natural weakness. Currently legions are just swords that are even more swordy, but not very unique

 

[Funak]

Swordsmen take walled cities very easily, especially with Drill. Kill their army, surround their city and beat it down. Especially if you can blockade the city. This includes walled capitals on hills, though Drill is a big deal there.

Even if the first few hits look like they'll hurt your units too much, it tends to work. Once the garrisoned unit dies the city falls very quickly, even more so if it's blockaded.

Yeah, but does legion really significally outperform a normal swordsman in that role? Yeah sure you've got like 15% higher CS, but that's like nothing, isn't it?

 

[kawyua]

What if Rome traded their % to buildings in the capital for no road maintenance, workers building roads in 1 turn and legions got "Double movement and ignore ZoC on roads, can use enemy roads."?

Legions would be unique, colosseums would be worth more, and all roads would lead to Rome yet again.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I still like the 15% bonus... I kind of think it is what we remember as Rome's identity.

Using enemy roads will be nice!

Also, lowering to near 50% road maintenance would probably be the maximum for that kind of thing. Or else it would make that discipline authority policy rather pointless.

I don't really believe spaghetti is an issue though. I think its fine, although it can look visually weird, they worked for it! Isn't that justification enough?

 

[Gazebo]

One thing I've considered is giving Legions a special promotion that, if the Legion dies, there is a % chance that the unit will reappear, badly injured, near Rome. I've also considered a promotion in which Roman Legions capture and convert UUs they kill. Could be fun.

G

 

[CrazyG]

One thing I've considered is giving Legions a special promotion that, if the Legion dies, there is a % chance that the unit will reappear, badly injured, near Rome. I've also considered a promotion in which Roman Legions capture and convert UUs they kill. Could be fun.

G

Would that promotion pass on? Its very cool either way

 

[Funak]

One thing I've considered is giving Legions a special promotion that, if the Legion dies, there is a % chance that the unit will reappear, badly injured, near Rome. I've also considered a promotion in which Roman Legions capture and convert UUs they kill. Could be fun.

G

Definitely cool, but would it actually matter? Kinda feels like both those promotions completely misses the point.

 

[Enginseer]

Definitely cool, but would it actually matter? Kinda feels like both those promotions completely misses the point.

Would be the point of Western Rome where Legions basically started being replaced by foreign soldiers leading to further decay of Western Rome.

 

[kawyua]

lol.
well, any kind of power instead of a combat modifier is fun to have. Avoiding the issue of power creep while being something the ai can use is always welcome.

At least, it sounds a lot nicer to the ai than trying to build roads with legions. (I've never actually seen the ai use legions for that purpose now that I think about it.)

Sigh, roads are a bit too much of a pipe dream concerning proper ai use.

 

[tu_79]

I... don't really follow. Why bring up horseman?

legions are nice, but they don't have the speed compared to horseman. faster roads would be nice, too.

OK. There was a time in Vox Populi when little players bothered to produce melee units when mounted units were available. Even if mounted units couldn't fortify and use terrain defenses, their high strength and mobility made-up for any kind of role. Even city conquest, which in theory was more difficult to horsemen, was a matter of bringing down walls with ranged and siege units and dealing the final hit with the horseman.

To change that, melee units were given more power vs cities. The drill tree and the assault promotion are there for a reason.

 

[Gazebo]

Would that promotion pass on? Its very cool either way

Yeah, either would pass on. Actually looking at my notes I'd considered giving the 'resurrection' ability to immortals and taking the Immortal UU defense/heal bonus and giving it to the Legion.