RSG03 (Deity) - Random Attempt at Redemption

[stormtrooper412]

ah, I see. I honestly thought it was another consentientism

 

[Olodune]

IBT – A bunch of stuff happened, but everything was set to quick so I missed it. Reset in the options.

I support this. In an SG we should be able to have very slow and careful play since each set is so short

-) Maybe we can agree to Declare on Liz with Shaka to aim for his Friendship. He could be a loyal attack dog that can be used to keep Ashurbanipal busy. I think we should do it.

-) Fighting siege towers is actually a hindrance to the AI as long as units are positioned carefully. Basically we need to be in front, instead of behind, our cities.

You can see just how bad Siege Towers can be Moriarte's Maya LP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulOK9YbNKY&list=PLfKwXAFHm6fKz36daT5WdgwnakEUv7ZL0&index=1

-) I am a little concerned about our military development. We should begin attacking with CBs soon if that is still the preferred option. The AI will have medieval units soon. I still don't understand why we needed trapping (or writing) first. With the Incan caravan we should have been able to reach construction well before t60. Maybe we are still alright, but we need focus.

 

[consentient]

Well I'm simply not willing to play without Quick Movement and Combat turned on, so I'll be turning them on every time I start up. If I forget to turn them back off, the next person can do this as the same matter of habit as when I turn them on. I played slowly and carefully regardless.

It's not the STs that worry me. Yes, they are "deadly and useless" or whatever was the great Moriarte quote, but Ash has a lot more besides. If we attacked in say 10-20 turns time, he will have close to 30 units, I imagine.

I am also worried about our military, and I think that even before T40 there were mis-steps, which is why I personally recommend waiting for XBs. I can't comment on Writing, since it wasn't my decision, but we need Trapping for Happiness, and since we already had Writing and Calendar, and I think we'll struggle against a force the size of Ash, battle-hardened against Askia, I set us on the road to Philosophy.

We're obviously running into issues about decision making, and maybe I have misjudged the amount of planning necessary before each decision, and what constitutes major decision-making. For that I apologise. I'd like to continue taking part if all are happy to have me, but I play a lot of conquest on Deity and I would bet my socks that we would have our ass handed to us if we go against Ash right now. We just don't have anywhere near enough anything.

I think Philosophy before Construction is a much better play, especially if the original VC of CV still stands.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Turn 52 – 1920 BC – We meet Budapest. Askia’s capitol is holding on. Maybe he’ll keep Ashy in a protracted war.

IBT – Our warrior near Grenoble is killed by barb archers. England founds Protestantism. There are four left. Looks like we’ll get one. I would use the Buddhist symbol and name it Pastafarianism after the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Turn 53 – 1880 BC –
Turn 54 – 1840 BC – Move an archer into Grenoble.
IBT – The Incas complete the Terracotta Army.
Turn 55 – 1800 BC – Barbs are being attracted to Grenoble. Our new archer starts getting some experience.
IBT – Swap embassies with Ramses. He completes the Colossus. Ashy wants to swap embassies too, but I take 1gpt off him.
Turn 56 – 1760 BC – Paris sur Le Nil: archer=> archer. We now have two.
IBT
Turn 57 – 1720 BC – Paris sur Sinai : granary=> archer
Turn 58 – 1680 BC – Meet Kiev.
IBT – The Doge shows up.

All eight civs on the same landmass. I think we have a terra map. But, we don’t have Attila! I get 1gpt from the Doge for our embassy.

Turn 59 – 1640 BC -

Turn 60 – 1600 BC – We discover England. Liz is east of Zululand.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Post flight – Askia is about to lose his capitol.

Here is the world as we know it:

We will have a basic military by the end of the next turn set. We have a decent economy, but it could be a lot stronger. We need to start thinking about four things:
1. Science
2. Population growth
3. Strategic road network
4. Trade routes

 

[Sir Bugsy]

And the roster:

Gurra <= on deck
Olodune
Stormtrooper
Consentient
Bugs <= just played
Beorn <= up


Menelann <= awaiting a check in

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I am also worried about our military, and I think that even before T40 there were mis-steps, which is why I personally recommend waiting for XBs. I can't comment on Writing, since it wasn't my decision, but we need Trapping for Happiness, and since we already had Writing and Calendar, and I think we'll struggle against a force the size of Ash, battle-hardened against Askia, I set us on the road to Philosophy.

In a succession game there are always missteps. It is the nature of the play. I heartily agree that we need crossbows for any offensive.

We're obviously running into issues about decision making, and maybe I have misjudged the amount of planning necessary before each decision, and what constitutes major decision-making. For that I apologize. I'd like to continue taking part if all are happy to have me, but I play a lot of conquest on Deity and I would bet my socks that we would have our ass handed to us if we go against Ash right now. We just don't have anywhere near enough anything.

I think Philosophy before Construction is a much better play, especially if the original VC of CV still stands.

You're part of the team now. No backing out allowed.

I think we need a lot more discussion in this game.

I don't know who thought we could go after Ashy, but I think you are correct. There is no way in hell we would survive any sort of war with the Assyrians.

My approach is crossbows for a defensive war. Cannon and artillery for an offensive war. No, I don't set any time records, but I usually win if I can get to spies.

 

[consentient]

I have to say I wasn't trying to back out.

I think that after NC we should settle at least one coastal city for tourism modifiers.

 

[Olodune]

Ok, backing off from the attack makes some sense, but we will be behind in economic development . Are we talking about a three city NC followed by an XB timing attack on Assyria? Or do we want more cities first?

We need workers.

With our current economic situation I don't think we'll be strong enough in the XB window so I think we should found another city or two and aim deeper in the tech tree. We'll need to watch Ashurbanipal carefully after Askia falls.

You could be right about Terra.

Shaka is far scarier than Attila in my experience, but at least he doesn't directly border us (yet).

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I would not be surprised if we are next on Assyria's target list after Askia. Let's not even think about starting any war with anyone. Let's focus on getting strong. A strong military, strong science, and a strong economy. Right now we are vulnerable everywhere.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

I'll open this baby up, go think about it over baseball and get the ball rolling on your 4 points tonight. Thanks for the skips.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

1. Science
2. Population growth
3. Strategic road network
4. Trade routes

1. We need Philo for NC (almost there but w/o libs), construction for CBs (at least the option thereof) and CS for growth (really badly). That's the order I'd do it in.
   Spoiler :

   
2. Pop growth comes with 3 strings attached: we have rivers without CS, good resources without improvements, and strong tiles that need cultural borders. Tradition will deal with the latter. Resources without improvements mean I'll have to grab 2 workers after the current archer queues. As for CS, well, priorities. But do keep in mind that a good old forest chop into a river farm will pay great dividends. We have plenty of hills everywhere for prod. Chop and farm, I say.
3. Roads can go in front or behind Smaug's lonely mountain. I'd go straight East from Paris, and straight SW from Grenoble. 8 roads total, to be started when we're out of resources and have a good grasp on forests / riverside tiles.
4. Current trade route options matter very little to me: we need to send food to Grenoble and Sinai. There are great trade routes available - notably Thebes and Assur at 7 and 3-4, but not right now.
   
   Spoiler :

   

Edit: looking at that picture, I'm of a mind to cancel the farm by the Nile and send him straight up to improve Ivory. Horse worker can finish and get incense right after.

So that's how I see it: Archers -> Workers -> Libraries -> Caravans / NC / Granaries. Get the most out of resource trades (right now we can swap Silk (3) for Incense (1) to Egypt, then improve our 3rd incense) and build up strong gpt for timely A-CB-XB upgrades. 6 CBs would not be enough to push into Assur but they would certainly be enough to solidify while we take a knee and build up our empire at 3 cities. 4th-5th after NC.

Comments, additions, rebuttals? All welcome, as always.

 

[consentient]

Definitely work the lux before farms. I'm not a fan of early farms. Lux > Hammers > Food in the early game for me.

If we have the happiness, get the Silk. It will help Rameses to warm to us. Usually he is very aloof, so anything that helps with that would be good.

If we're concentrating on growth, then I recommend chopping food caravans before farms. They are much more effective.

I also think that we should stick to 3 cities for ease of management. Although 4 is better in an ideal world, I've won plenty of games with 3 city Tradition and I think we can't spare the resources to pop another settler out.

Also, I'm not sure where they'd go. The Teal sinai spot is almost certainly going to be nabbed by one of the AIs by the time we finish NC, I reckon.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I'd say chop for a caravan first, and then granaries and workers

 

[Olodune]

I like that plan; In general I think getting at least 2 Granaries and Internal routes before NC pays off. We will be slow with beakers but by focusing on growth we should be able to catch up.

3 cities for now, then?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Definitely work the lux before farms. I'm not a fan of early farms. Lux > Hammers > Food in the early game for me.

Please explain. I have always had the philosophy that more population = more power: greater flexibility, more science, higher defense, greater productivity, stronger economy.

I am willing to learn something new. Please teach me.

 

[consentient]

In the early game, before NC and CS, getting production up and running and luxes improved has far more of a snowball effect than building farms. Improving the farms doesn't increase population by enough until CS. If you watch the very best players they all prioritise hammers and gold in the first phase of the game. Olodune hasn't made any LPs but I'm sure he will confirm that farms are not a priority until a little way in.

I've seen mathematical explanations somewhere on this forum, but all I know is that my early games are much better when I use the workers to chop production, improve bonus resources like cows and improve luxuries.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

All of it ties up with

• setting a hard upper bound on the productivity of new citizens,
• Early basic tiles worth very little (say, 2 or 11 ) and
• Much, much less gold benefit from random tiles, as opposed to river tiles in vanilla or C3C, or early cottages in BTS

I've seen a lot of improvement myself when I started improving higher and tiles early on, before mass workers and CS. At CS, the tables turn and you grow all you can ASAP - faster from more (and aqueducts on Tradition).

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

So I'll move the worker from horse to incense, make the trade with Ramsess, send the other one north to ivory, and chop with whatever turns I have left. Libraries first, but grans before workers.

Anything else to add in extremis? I'll play after dinner.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

So limit population growth until CS. At what level do you limit it?