Russia First Look [Peter]

[gunnergoz]

Please explain. The way I see it, Russia under Peter was especially *not* known for its religion. To wit, Wikipedia's entry on Peter the Great says:

"Peter was not religious and had a low regard for the Church, so he put it under tight governmental control...He therefore abolished the Patriarchy, replacing it with a Holy Synod that was under the control of a senior bureaucrat; the Tsar appointed all bishops...Peter implemented a law that stipulated that no Russian man could join a monastery before the age of 50. He felt that too many able Russian men were being wasted on clerical work when they could be joining his new and improved army. A clerical career was not a route chosen by upper-class society. Most parish priests were sons of priests, were very poorly educated, and very poorly paid. The monks in the monasteries had a slightly higher status; they were not allowed to marry. Politically, the church was impotent."

Poorly educated and poorly paid priests occupy the Lavra which is Russia's unique improvement, and are citizens of a nation led by a man who had the lowest regard for religion out of almost any of the leaders in the Civ VI roster.

SO WHY GIVE RUSSIA FAITH BONUSES?

The Orthodox Church of Russia was not a key part of what makes Russia an important global player, and has never been so, I would argue. Russia is known for its Enlightenment era despots, its involvement in wars, its science, and its tough people and tough leaders. Faith has nothing to do with any of that.

If they wanted a faith focused civ they should have given more faith bonuses to Kongo, who are led by a leader whose major occupational focus was religion.

Firaxis just baffles me. They have Civ VI populated by leaders who are barely recognizable in their in-game appearance (Pedro II, Pericles, Trajan), leading nations with bonuses that don't match what the nation or the leader was known for (Harald, Tomyris and Peter with faith bonuses, Afonso with food and production bonuses from little pieces of artwork).

Sure, I'll lay it out for you. You are too fixated on Peter's period in Russian history. The Russian Orthodox church has had enormous impact on Russian history and culture from before his time and since. Not even the Bolsheviks and Communists could eradicate its influence on the people of Russia. During wartime, the church helped hold together the population and provided social services and more. A resurgent, nationalist Orthodox church is making itself felt in today's Russia. The church's role in Russian daily life is nothing to minimize or scoff at. At the individual level, it has always been a factor. And Russia is nothing if not millions of individuals held together by their unique Slavic identity, of which the Orthodox faith is a part to this day.

 

[Gintoki89]

I many not be a huge fan of the Lavra mechanically, but I gotta say I've always been a fan of Russian architecture and seeing the image of the Lavra in game on the blog post I'll love having bunches of those all over my empire, they look so nice.

 

[Abraxis]

I many not be a huge fan of the Lavra mechanically, but I gotta say I've always been a fan of Russian architecture and seeing the image of the Lavra in game on the blog post I'll love having bunches of those all over my empire, they look so nice.

I love their colouring as well. The nice gold on black rather than the more yellow of the last game.

 

[isau]

Sure, I'll lay it out for you. You are too fixated on Peter's period in Russian history. The Russian Orthodox church has had enormous impact on Russian history and culture from before his time and since. Not even the Bolsheviks and Communists could eradicate its influence on the people of Russia. During wartime, the church helped hold together the population and provided social services and more. A resurgent, nationalist Orthodox church is making itself felt in today's Russia. The church's role in Russian daily life is nothing to minimize or scoff at. At the individual level, it has always been a factor. And Russia is nothing if not millions of individuals held together by their unique Slavic identity, of which the Orthodox faith is a part to this day.

What I could see is a modified Religious district where instead of Faith you get Gold or Hammers back. Or unit promotions. Or something else.

But honestly you know what I think it should be? The ability to place missile silos in the territory of City States or (borrowing from the CBP) the ability to annex territory owned by someone else. That screams Russia to me. As it is, we're going to have Devout Russia versus Atheistic United States in late game cold wars and it's going to be plain weird. Instead of fearing Russian spies the world will fear infiltrations of its priests. Sounds like a slapstick comedy movie.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

USA can be whatever it want really thanks to its founder father ability.

 

[Sagax]

What I could see is a modified Religious district where instead of Faith you get Gold or Hammers back. Or unit promotions. Or something else.

But honestly you know what I think it should be? The ability to place missile silos in the territory of City States or (borrowing from the CBP) the ability to annex territory owned by someone else. That screams Russia to me. As it is, we're going to have Devout Russia versus Atheistic United States in late game cold wars and it's going to be plain weird. Instead of fearing Russian spies the world will fear infiltrations of its priests. Sounds like a slapstick comedy movie.

Civ games are bad at reflecting major changes in government and ideology, and Russia is a perfect example of that. I'm fine with this, since it provides a nice "what if" scenario rather than sticking to the actual history. Saying that Russian civ should be defined by its past 25 (!) years of history is no better than making China's civ design completely based off its modern ideology and island-building initiatives.

 

[Amrunril]

Reading some of the comments in this thread, it's seems to me that Russia, as a large civ with a complex, well know history, could justifiably have bonuses to pretty much anything. Religion probably wouldn't have been my choice, but it's an entirely defensible direction for the developers to take.

As far as the Lavra is concerned, the expansion bonus seems so trivial that it may as well not exist. The thing is that, balance-wise, it doesn't need to exist. Simply by nature of being a unique religious district, with the production discount and district count exemption that this entails, it's already stronger than some civs' UIs. Aesthetically, on the other hand, it does seem wrong for the bonus to be so small. Perhaps it would be better for Russian cities to start with 6 extra tiles but grow by three for each great person?

Peter's leader ability seems conceptually strong but numerically a bit on the weak side (though bear in mind that science numbers don't get as high in Civ VI as in V). Numbers are easy to fix at the last minute though, so I'm seriously concerned about it.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Which Great Persons have multiple uses?

As a general rule, Great Writers and Great Musicians have 2 uses, Great Artists have 3.

 

[Calouste]

As a general rule, Great Writers and Great Musicians have 2 uses, Great Artists have 3.

Apparently, (see the Screenshot thread), Great Engineers can have more than one as well.

 

[Gangrin]

i also thought about Peter's historical obsession with shipbuilding and naval trade expansion. Hell, he founded St. Petersburg for the sole purpose (well, ok, not sole, but one of the most important) of having trading port in Baltic sea. What if in addition to science/culture yields Peter had discount to docks district? Would it make sense and be balanced?

 

[SpaceCommunist]

Religion probably wouldn't have been my choice, but it's an entirely defensible direction for the developers to take.

Not quite as defensible as a defense bonus, mind you

 

[ehecatzin]

i also thought about Peter's historical obsession with shipbuilding and naval trade expansion. Hell, he founded St. Petersburg for the sole purpose (well, ok, not sole, but one of the most important) of having trading port in Baltic sea. What if in addition to science/culture yields Peter had discount to docks district? Would it make sense and be balanced?

Or naval trade route generate extra culture and science, and extra gold for the trade partner, a la Egypt

 

[teqofc]

I am not sure, but the more I am thinking of it, the more I am inclined towards not liking the religion focus of Russia in the game due to the following reason. Granted, before the communist era (or, roughly, before the 20th century) Russia was a highly religious country, probably like many other nations. But it is her 20th century achievements which earned her a place in the starting roster of nations in Civ. I mean, imagine someone was bothered with creating a civ game in the 19th century, I doubt Russia would be among the first choice nations there. Probably, the chances would be somewhat close to those of Sweden or

Russia's rise to power began in the early 18th century. Funny you mention Sweden as a first nation of choice since it was Russia who replaced Sweden as the European power after their 20 year war from 1700-1720. In the 19th century there was the War of 1812 involving almost the complete destruction of Napolean's Grand Armee. Granted most of those casualties were from starvation and disease and desertion due to scorch & burn tactics but that is the price you pay for trying to conquer a vast land. Russia was also at war with the Ottoman Empire and Persia off and on for hundreds of years. The 19th century was also an amazing era of literature from Gogol, Pushkin, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Chekov.

So yes Russia was a very important civ not only in the 20th, 19th, 18th and 17th century but pretty much going back to Ivan the Great in the 15th century. I would definitely be disappointed if any civ game didn't feature Russia as a civ in the release.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Or naval trade route generate extra culture and science, and extra gold for the trade partner, a la Egypt

Well all Peter's trade routes get extra culture and science, so that seems to be a good model (they probably need to make it stronger though)

 

[rtfischbeck]

First off, several others have made these points but I feel they are in need of more explanation so my apologies if this seems repetitive. Anyway, here's my take after watching many LPs and obsessing about day one strategy.

UA: As many have said it's the Shoshone bonus on steroids in a game where border expansion is slower than normal obviously strong. That said, I think this ability is even stronger than many have suggested. For one, by making tundra a "better" plains you are able settle cities for luxuries in "bad" terrain that can actually contribute to your empire, which will often end up equating to an extra city, which is clearly a huge bonus in a civ game. I would also note that IF the tundra bonus applies to the cap you can settle on a tundra hill and get both the hammer bonus and a faith bonus on the first turn of the game. Given that the only plains hills--and not grassland hills--give a bonus for settling this seems even stronger than you might initially suspect in the early game.

UU: While it doesn't wow me, I still think it's quite strong. You get the second best promotion for Cav units for free and get a combat bonus on top of that. Also, what unique unit actually has a wow factor (like ever). UUs are almost always slightly better versions of the unit the replace. And, to be honest, I'm pretty sure that a unit which wowed me would almost certainly be imbalanced.

LUA: As other have said, depends on how the bonus is calculated but if it's simply number of techs they have that you don't, then it is definitely solid as it allows to you beeline, or ignore (coastal/deadend) techs that are not useful to you and get a benefit. And, of course, bonuses for playing the game the way you would regardless are always underrated (getting something marginally useful for free is often better than getting something very useful that you have to work for because opportunity cost). Admittedly this bonus is certainly better on higher difficulty levels than lower ones (which definitely skews my evaluation) but (1) plenty of people like wonder bonuses which are bad on high difficulty levels and (2) if it allows you to get the bonus for beelining/ignoring techs it has similar utility to wonder bonuses on high difficulty levels.

UD: See the above point about getting bonuses for playing your normal game. Moreover, the underrated point is that a half price, no pop requirement, district with literally zero additional bonuses that's available in the ancient era is going to be exponentially better than than districts with decent bonuses in later eras. This is because bonus hammers in the early game are vastly better than in the late game because you don't have many hammers in the early game. A ten hammer reduction when you produce ten hammers a turn is a 100% percent bonus. But when you are making 30 hammers a turn it's only a 33% bonus. Case study: several people have mentioned Japan's electronics factory. Factories are an industrial era tech and electronics factories give +1 hammer for every city in the radius. Let's say you're making 30 hammers a turn, per city, and that you can get your industrial district in a place such that you give the regional bonus to 4 cities. That's 3.33% increase in total hammers, per factory (not per city), for your civ. Now, you also get 4 culture once you research electronics in the modern era. I'm going to assume that you are producing at least 120 culture per turn by then. If so, that's an additional 3.33% culture for your civ (the tooltips I've seen suggest that the culture bonus isn't regional. If it is, then E. factories are significantly better than I suggest here). Given that I'm right about the mechanics, it seems reasonable to think that the UD bonus for Russia is actually very strong in terms of production bonus (and hammers win games IMO). Not only that but you get some random free tiles, which, while not amazing, are useful in that things like encampments/entertainment districts early and neighborhoods larter are best placed on "bad" tiles.

Then again, we shall see once we get our hands on the game.

 

[Gangrin]

Also, what unique unit actually has a wow factor (like ever)

Eagle warrior and Conquistador (also arguably Mamluk) are pretty wow'y to me.

Moreover, the underrated point is that a half price, no pop requirement, district with literally zero additional bonuses that's available in the ancient era is going to be exponentially better than than districts with decent bonuses in later eras

completely disagree. I would pick Unique industrial district in place of every other type despite it being the latest to research because - as you said - production wins games. Aqueducts are relatively late districts but almost mandatory in every single city no matter what victory you are chasing. Same thing with Electronics factory - you will want to have factories as soon as possible, but Japanese ones are better and provide culture on par with tier 2 culture building. Lavra have the same problem as Acropolis, Royal dockyard and Carnival - while it's nice to have them and discounts are welcome, you may be hard-pressed by other matters - expansion, growth and improving infrastructure, especially in early game.

 

[rtfischbeck]

Eagle warrior and Conquistador (also arguably Mamluk) are pretty wow'y to me.

Fair enough. I do like the Eagle warrior though I'm skeptical of how useful it will be at higher difficulty levels (obviously insane whenever warriors can trade effectively). Conquistador sounds cool but I'd rather my military units be better in combat as I can just convert after conquering if I'm warmongering (tho, I admit given the holy war option they may impress more than I think right now). Mamluk is definitely good but it's at least debateable that moving out of attack range is similar to an auto heal. Good unit for sure tho so no argument there.

completely disagree. I would pick Unique industrial district in place of every other type despite it being the latest to research because - as you said - production wins games. Aqueducts are relatively late districts but almost mandatory in every single city no matter what victory you are chasing. Same thing with Electronics factory - you will want to have factories as soon as possible, but Japanese ones are better and provide culture on par with tier 2 culture building. Lavra have the same problem as Acropolis, Royal dockyard and Carnival - while it's nice to have them and discounts are welcome, you may be hard-pressed by other matters - expansion, growth and improving infrastructure, especially in early game.

Not sure we disagree here. I'm not saying that holy sites are better all things considered. My point is only that the bonus to producing an ancient era district (assuming doing so is part of your game plan) is going to be more impactful than a moderate bonus in the mid-game. Japan's district is good. My only point is that giving a good bonus to an ancient era build that already gets a 50% production bonus would be absurd (This is why Rome seems very strong to me as well with their free monuments as that is free ancient hammers plus double culture on turn one).

That said, I'm merely trying to argue against the idea that these bonuses (other than, perhaps, the LUA) are weak. My point being that Russia get multiple bonuses that can be leveraged in the ancient era and that tends to be good. Then again, we'll have to see what the hive mind comes up with.

 

[arik24]

I think Russia's unique are fine I do think need some more info the LUA once we get that we will have a better idea of how it works.

 

[gunnergoz]

What I could see is a modified Religious district where instead of Faith you get Gold or Hammers back. Or unit promotions. Or something else.

But honestly you know what I think it should be? The ability to place missile silos in the territory of City States or (borrowing from the CBP) the ability to annex territory owned by someone else. That screams Russia to me. As it is, we're going to have Devout Russia versus Atheistic United States in late game cold wars and it's going to be plain weird. Instead of fearing Russian spies the world will fear infiltrations of its priests. Sounds like a slapstick comedy movie.

If that's the game you want, that's the game you'll play. Right now IRL I see Russia happily rejecting Western culture in large part due to resurgent religious nationalism encouraged by a dictatorial regime that uses spy craft as well as military force to get what it wants, be it territory or just plain influence. As for the "atheistic United States" part of the game, well the US is supposed to be a secular democracy, right? Separation of church and state? Or did I miss the memo about the new national religion? So for the most part, Civ VI looks to me to be able to emulate historical events and trends to a fair degree.