Safe spaces for everyone?

civver_764 said:
There's a huge difference between calling something "fake news" (a counter-criticism), and trying to shut down said news outlet.
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Yes: one is the President of the goddam United States saying it, the other is some guy on a video game forum.
 
Ajidica said:
Did you not read what I posted?
I explicitly said that you don't -as far as I am aware- mass murder on an industrial scale to eliminate and entire race of people. However, you seem to be just fine sharing a platform with them and saying "I, too, agree that we need America for the Americans" and using explicitly neo-Nazi rhetoric, like "defending our culture" as if it were under attack my some alien and destructive 'other' or that a nebulous cabal of "globalists" and "cosmopolitans" are trying to destroy honest, upright Americans/white people. .
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But don't you see what you're doing here? You're basically saying that anybody who wants to defend their culture wants to gas six million Jews, or at least doesn't care if it happens. Where's the option for wanting to defend your culture, but not wanting to gas six million Jews? Can I be that option?

No, because in no way shape or form can crude insults and boorish behavior be construed as "standing up to" a group. The US media is notoriously bad at self-reflection or even questioning the "accepted" narrative. For example, a couple years ago I posted to Facebook an article from the Telegraph about how ISIS is trying to eliminate the "grey zone", the ISIS concept that Muslims can live peacefully in non-Muslim majority countries, that different religions and cultures can exist side by side. A friend commented that the Telegraph must be some sort of radical rag because he had never heard this idea before - never mind that the Torygraph is a solidly boring, right wing well established British newspaper. American centrists and self-appointed "intelligentsia" in the media have this obsession with centrist technocratic government, that the consensus should not be questioned because it is established by people who have a proper command of the facts and knowledge. Socially liberal, economic free market with open, global trade. There is a subcurrent that the "people" can't really be trusted to know what's best for them. In along come His Trumpiness who, in rhetoric at least, throws bombs at that concept of social and economic relations. What better way to prevent any questioning of their assumptions - we need to be involved in wars around the world, that free trade is good, that "the people" can't really be trusted to know what is right, than to equate any opposition to that worldview with the booring, hateful, small minded, morally and intellectual bankrupt "populism" that Trump insists on smearing across his entire sordid administration. Populism = Trump! Anti-Trump = Technocratic administration! Woe to any prospective American Tony Benn or Robert Fisk that will get smeared with the same slimy brush that the Trumpists wallow in.
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When Trump calls something "fake news" I laugh because I already shared his sentiments about the news channel in question. It's not like I saw him calling stuff "fake news" and then said "gee that's a great point, I will never trust anybody except Trump ever again!", and I think that's probably true for all Trump supporters. All he is doing echoing feelings that many Americans already had.
 
civver_764 said:
But don't you see what you're doing here? You're basically saying that anybody who wants to defend their culture wants to gas six million Jews, or at least doesn't care if it happens. Where's the option for wanting to defend your culture, but not wanting to gas six million Jews? Can I be that option?
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What is "American culture" though? I highly doubt my idea of what it encompasses has much in common with yours, yet you are the one pulling rhetoric and concepts almost straight from the neo-Nazi playbook. I think I've even seen you post "We must secure a future for our white children" but I can't be bothered to use this forum's abominable search feature to find it. For all the fig leafs you put forward about "respecting other cultures right to exist", you seem dead set on destroying the inclusive and tolerant nature that most people would consider comprising the core of American culture. So either you realize it is futile to try and engage in this "culture war" or you break out the neo-Nazi rhetoric without seeming to care where it comes from and treat the only possible view of "American culture" as the one you pre-defined and that anyone who disagrees is an enemy to the "white race", as evidenced by your user tag.

When Trump calls something "fake news" I laugh because I already shared his sentiments about the news channel in question. It's not like I saw him calling stuff "fake news" and then said "gee that's a great point, I will never trust anybody except Trump ever again!", and I think that's probably true for all Trump supporters. All he is doing echoing feelings that many Americans already had.
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So, what is His Trumpiness doing to stand up to the "fake news" short of being a boor and unleashing the odd tweetstorm? All his cronies and courtiers seem dead set on continuing the long process of stripping out the laws and regulations that protect and separate media from undue corporate influence.
I'm under no illusion about returning media to some non-existent past of editorial independence. But when US corporate media is so unconcerned with questions they accept the prevailing "opinion" to an extent that a boring, conservative UK newspaper is initially assumed to be engaging in radical reporting, we have a problem. When we are at the point that freaking John Oliver is doing better investigative reporting and questioning established narrative than the big news agencies, we have a problem.
 
Ajidica said:
What is "American culture" though? I highly doubt my idea of what it encompasses has much in common with yours, yet you are the one pulling rhetoric and concepts almost straight from the neo-Nazi playbook. I think I've even seen you post "We must secure a future for our white children" but I can't be bothered to use this forum's abominable search feature to find it. For all the fig leafs you put forward about "respecting other cultures right to exist", you seem dead set on destroying the inclusive and tolerant nature that most people would consider comprising the core of American culture. So either you realize it is futile to try and engage in this "culture war" or you break out the neo-Nazi rhetoric without seeming to care where it comes from and treat the only possible view of "American culture" as the one you pre-defined and that anyone who disagrees is an enemy to the "white race", as evidenced by your user tag.
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I'm not trying to destroy anything. You are free to enjoy diverse communities as much as you would like, and I encourage you to do so if that's your thing. You are even free to immigrate to foreign countries and be completely immersed in a foreign culture. A lot of people do this and find it be quite fun. If that's what you want to do, then go for it.

However, it is not your right to call other countries "racist" and demand they take you in. It is their right to protect their culture and prevent you from coming in if they want. Agreed?

So, what is His Trumpiness doing to stand up to the "fake news" short of being a boor and unleashing the odd tweetstorm?
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He's calling them out, basically. A lot of people have probably taken it upon themselves to investigate whether or not these places were really "fake news", and I think that's a good thing. The media has far too much power in this country. Trump has no doubt helped ushered in a new era of alternative media.
 
Deport all whites from North America
 
civver_764 said:
However, it is not your right to call other countries "racist" and demand they take you in. It is their right to protect their culture and prevent you from coming in if they want. Agreed.
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Well, Geronimo and Crazy Horse certainly agree.
 
Traitorfish said:
Well, Geronimo and Crazy Horse certainly agree.
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And I do think it's a shame what happened to their cultures, and that's a big part of why we set up reservations for them. We recognized that they did have a right to practice their own culture, and I would certainly never tell a reservation that they need to accept outsiders.
 
civver_764 said:
And I do think it's a shame what happened to their cultures, and that's a big part of why we set up reservations for them. We recognized that they did have a right to practice their own culture, and I would certainly never tell a reservation that they need to accept outsiders.
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I mean, that's not even a little bit how the reservation system started.
 
Civver should all Europeans be deported from North America?
 
The Native Americans tried many many times to kill the European settlers and "deport" them, but they failed. They also routinely attacked and tried to deport each other.
 
That doesn't answer my question
 
civver_764 said:
The Native Americans tried many many times to kill the European settlers and "deport" them, but they failed.
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That actually only happened a handful of times, all before 1650 and on a very localised level, and was always framed specifically as Our Tribe removing This Gross Hairy Tribe from the Place Where We Live and sending them back to Whatever Gross Hairy Place They Came From. There was never a concerted effort by Indians, identified as such, to remove white people, identified as such, from North America, identified as such. By the time any of those concepts had crystalised enough to build a program around, even the most radical proposals were simply about keeping the specifically British white people East of the Appalachians. Actually removing white people, in their entirety, from the continent, in its entirety, was purely the stuff of religious visions.

The same cannot be said to white attitudes towards Native Americans.
 
inthesomeday said:
That doesn't answer my question
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The answer to your question is "they can certainly try, though I wouldn't advise it".

Traitorfish said:
That actually only happened a handful of times, all before 1650 and on a very localised level, and was always framed specifically as Our Tribe removing This Gross Hairy Tribe from the Place Where We Live and sending them back to Whatever Gross Hairy Place They Came From. There was never a concerted effort by Indians, identified as such, to remove white people, identified as such, from North America, identified as such. By the time any of those concepts had crystalised enough to build a program around, even the most radical proposals were simply about keeping the specifically British white people East of the Appalachians. Actually removing white people, in their entirety, from the continent, in its entirety, was purely the stuff of religious visions.

The same cannot be said to white attitudes towards Native Americans.
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I don't really want to play this game of which side was worse. Both sides did terrible things, there's no denying that. One side unfortunately got basically wiped out, there's no denying that. If the lesson you take from that is "we need lots of mass immigration" then you should probably check your critical thinking skills.
 
civver_764 said:
The answer to your question is "they can certainly try, though I wouldn't advise it".
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So, you think Latinos and Muslims should be deported because you can? Not because of any moral or logical reasoning.

I don't really want to play this game of which side was worse. Both sides did terrible things, there's no denying that. One side unfortunately got basically wiped out, there's no denying that. If the lesson you take from that is "we need lots of mass immigration" then you should probably check your critical thinking skills.
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Oof the European colonists were definitely much worse
 
inthesomeday said:
So, you think Latinos and Muslims should be deported because you can? Not because of any moral or logical reasoning.
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I think you're getting caught up with your own shadow here m8. Nowhere did I say we need to deport Latinos and Muslims. My position has always been to deport illegal immigrants, wherever they are from, and to oppose future immigration. I have no desire to remove anybody from their homes.
 
So then what do you call the house that an "illegal" immigrant lives in? Their domicile?
 
civver_764 said:
I don't really want to play this game of which side was worse. Both sides did terrible things, there's no denying that. One side unfortunately got basically wiped out, there's no denying that. If the lesson you take from that is "we need lots of mass immigration" then you should probably check your critical thinking skills.
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It's not about which "side" was worse. There weren't "sides", that's what I'm saying. History isn't reducible to these juvenile narratives of racial struggle.

The last comment was only an observation that Americans have had a very successful record of inflicting those juvenile narratives onto the continent.
 
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