Saladin and Synergy (or lack thereof)

[Leitmotif]

I've been playing Saladin a lot recently just because the guy really puzzles me.

Most leaders have synergy between their UB/UU/Traits, but Saladin seems to have got it all backwards. Shaka for example gets quick barracks because of his trait, so this works well with his UB. Hannibal is financial, which means starting by the sea is a greater advantage to him due to the added commerce, so his UB bonus just ramps up the sea benefits even more. The Mongolian UU is a horse, which works great with their super-stables. You get the point.

Saladin just doesn't get the point at all. He's protective, which means bonus to archers and gunpowder units, but his UU is neither gunpowder nor bow based. This is fine, because many leaders don't have traits which benefit their UU, but we can keep going.

The other trait, spiritual, really doesn't blend well with his UB, because the Madrassa is just a library that gives you the option of having priests. Well, considering Saladin is spiritual, he can just switch to Caste System any him he wants (well, any time after he has CoL, which is 80% of the game) and get as many priests as possible, thus making the holy library rather moot. I know spiritual has other uses, but why does it have to anathematize the UB?

Then we have the UU. No free promotions, no attack bonus, and no quick building time. The only thing the Bedouins have to their name is the 25% withdrawal chance, which isn't that bad I suppose, but it just doesn't mix with the rest of the Arabian package.

Can anyone figure this guy out? I used to see a lot of uses for him in Vanilla, but now that he's taking to wall building instead of philosophizing he seems to have fell far behind.

 

[frob2900]

The other trait, spiritual, really doesn't blend well with his UB, because the Madrassa is just a library that gives you the option of having priests. Well, considering Saladin is spiritual, he can just switch to Caste System any him he wants (well, any time after he has CoL, which is 80% of the game) and get as many priests as possible, thus making the holy library rather moot. I know spiritual has other uses, but why does it have to anathematize the UB?

Caste system doesn't allow you to run unlimited priests, only unlimited artists, merchants and scientists, so the priest specialists are a bonus.

I agree with you that Saladin is kind of lacklustre, though

 

[sneaky]

Saladin had a lot of synergy when he still had his old traits and used to be a real religion hugger. See for instance Sulla's walkthrough of CIV IV. But nowadays he is just weak. I do admit that his UU always was a bit meh anyhow.

 

[madscientist]

Saladin has good/bad points. I have read this comment aboput him before and I agree, protector of the faith!!! Now a few points about him

1) He starts with mysticism and the wheel, probably worse combo. No mining or fishing to help with commerce, cannot build farms/mines/workboats, and 2 techs away from any sort of military protection.
2) His UU offers no benefits except the 25% withdrawal (I think this is correct), but it can be built WITHOUT horses and I think iron (not sure of that part. So you do not have to kill yourself (or an AI) getting horses until Cavalry, and even then beeline rifling if need be.
3) His UB I think is quite good. An extra +2 culture above libraries, not bad. 2 extra priests per massadra (No, caste system does not allow you fre priests), that's an egyptian obelisk for the entire game at only a little later time.

So how does one lead these poor Arabs.

How I approach him (I won a space victory on Prince/Marathon/huge with him)

A) Regardless of commerce I go for Polytheism. I can usually get judaism if I miss and I need this tech for literature later on. Saladin will grow slowly, not much to do about it so might as well try to get an early religion.
B) I start producing warriors for protection, and perhaps the barracks if not too expensive while letting the city build slowly. I look at the surrounding and will use the next tech for a worker, be it fishing/agriculture/mining. Really bets thing to have in the fat cross is deer or elephants so I can get hunting up and going.
C) Next, and I never stray from this, is get hunting/archery. Those early promoted archers are big for him to stay alive. Going for AH or BW is a gamble (you may not have either close by), if you do not get it your warriors are NOT going to hold out long.
D) At this point I adjust to the situation. I try and get writing ASAP and build the Masadras, run priest specialists. If I nailed hinduism early, I'll have the shrine early, the second great profit is saved for bulbing theology (almost guarenteed to get unless the egyptians bulb it first), the third for church of the nativity. Three GP's, 2 founded religions, 2 shrines, Saladin is an economic powerhouse early in the game. If greedy, you can slip some scientists in to the GP point pool and hopefully get one to bulb Taoism. You also have theology very early for trades or to switch to theocracy for highly promoted protective units or buildup for some axe smashing. Noone except for the egyptians has such a good chance at creating highly promoted units this early. Plus cheap temples galore!!!!!
E) Wonders. He has a decent shot at oracle because of the mysticism/polytheism start but I usually do not go for this unless I have easy access to marble. Go for great wall if possible and have access to stone. If he is lucky enough to get stone in the fat cross, I would definitely go polytheism then masonsry and rush the GW early which eliminates the mad 2 tech rush for protection. Pyramids have a decent chance for getting a great engineer from GW GP points (running priests or scientists from MAssadra).

Alot of people on these forums do not go for the early religions much, nor care about them. Saladin is built for them and if you do not take this advantage you are really are missing out on his traits/UB. He is also a natural for cultural wins.

 

[madscientist]

Saladin had a lot of synergy when he still had his old traits and used to be a real religion hugger. See for instance Sulla's walkthrough of CIV IV. But nowadays he is just weak. I do admit that his UU always was a bit meh anyhow.

Not sure I agree. He is not philosophical but the Massadra allows alot of priest to be run, more if you have a temple or two. He will get prohets out as fast as he once did (2-3 priests now versus 1-2 and philosopical in vanilla).

 

[JimT]

I would say he traits assit in helping him get a cultural victory.

Mysticism - early religion and writing
Madrassa - Priests - Great Priest - Shrine (with add. benefit of +2 culture)
Protective - Protection
Spiritual - quicker temples - more priests

My main problem with him is Madrassa tells me SE while Financial is the trait I want for Cultural Victory.

The wheel wouldn't be my first choice but it is a requirement for pottery which allows early cottages and gets 20% off the research time for writing.

 

[madscientist]

The wheel wouldn't be my first choice but it is a requirement for pottery which allows early cottages and gets 20% off the research time for writing.

JimT, I don't follow. Does this mean if I have Pottery first the writing research time is reduced by 20%?

 

[AThousandYoung]

I don't know about how the expansions change things, but the Camel Archer does not require Iron for what that's worth.

 

[AThousandYoung]

I believe that's correct, Mad.

 

[Radarmaker]

Sal is really about adaptability. His UU doesn't rely on any resources, you so you know you won't be up the creek if you get shafted on land, and Spiritual means you can adapt to any civic situation and milk it without losing turns.

That said, he doesn't really excel at anything in particular either, except being able to skip barracks and monument early on, which, if done correctly, can give you a nice lead in the land-grab battle.

 

[frob2900]

That said, he doesn't really excel at anything in particular either, except being able to skip barracks and monument early on, which, if done correctly, can give you a nice lead in the land-grab battle.

Why can he skip barracks and monument?

 

[Radarmaker]

Sal's archers don't need a barracks to be effective early on, and the Madrassa makes up for the time you lose in waiting for writing for culture with it's added boost.

I usually go Hunting > Animal Husbandry > Archery > Writing.

It usually evens me out with the computer on Monarch, but you don't have any time at all for early wonders.

 

[AlessioCerci]

Why can he skip barracks and monument?

Im assuming its because radarmaker thins you use the madrassa for border pops and since Saladin is protective, city garrison1, drill 1 are gd enough barb defence, without the xtra promo a baracks gives. I dont agree with this at all btw.

Edit: he posted b4 me.

 

[frob2900]

Sal's archers don't need a barracks to be effective early on, and the Madrassa makes up for the time you lose in waiting for writing for culture with it's added boost.

I usually go Hunting > Animal Husbandry > Archery > Writing.

It usually evens me out with the computer on Monarch, but you don't have any time at all for early wonders.

But the monument culture is there to get a 15 culture BFC going quickly. The total culture count is irrelevant after that (unless youre going for cultural etc.)

And archers are generally never good for anything unless you happen to be without copper/iron/horses.

 

[madscientist]

If he founded an early religion and you have a trade route with the capital (easily built road, river, coast w/sailing), the religion will spread on it's own eliminated the need for a monument (unless you had to settle somewhere a little further away for horses/metal. The protective trait archers postpones the need for an early barracks.

 

[madscientist]

But the monument culture is there to get a 15 culture BFC going quickly. The total culture count is irrelevant after that (unless youre going for cultural etc.)

And archers are generally never good for anything unless you happen to be without copper/iron/horses.

Alot of people bad mouth archers, id not always agree. I think they are great early protection. Hunting/archery tech faster than mining/Bronze working or animal husbandry plus no hookup time. I think early archers are ideal for Saladin, just for survival.

 

[frob2900]

If he founded an early religion and you have a trade route with the capital (easily built road, river, coast w/sailing), the religion will spread on it's own eliminated the need for a monument (unless you had to settle somewhere a little further away for horses/metal. The protective trait archers postpones the need for an early barracks.

Early religion is generally above prince. It can be amusing but often it isnt at all optimal.

Alot of people bad mouth archers, id not always agree. I think they are great early protection. Hunting/archery tech faster than mining/Bronze working or animal husbandry plus no hookup time. I think early archers are ideal for Saladin, just for survival.

Once youve played enough youll also start thinking they suck, believe me

 

[Radarmaker]

I'm assuming a couple things go well that sometimes don't, perhaps.

First of all, you need an AH resource in your fat cross so your worker has something to do, and you need to be on a larger map so the aggressive AI expansion dosn't ruin you too quickly.

The archer are used for fog busting and fighting barbs, which will get them the promotions they would have got if they came from a barracks.

It works out better right now because Monuments are obsoleted by Calendar, but once they get moved to Astronomy it might be a bit different.

 

[madscientist]

Early religion is generally above prince. It can be amusing but often it isnt at all optimal.



Once youve played enough youll also start thinking they suck, believe me

Well, to each their own. I am generally a Prince level player. I still found early religions and get early archers if appropriate. One Monarch win with ragnar where I teched archery from the beginning.

I still say an early religion plays to Saladin's strengths.

 

[Radarmaker]

Early religion works with Saladin on Monarch, you just need a tile with two commerce (like wine or dye) in your capital city.

I stand by my previous posts though, the barracks and monument skip *does* work if the right combination of things happen. It's mainly a tactic I started using after many early and frustrating setbacks by barbarians. If everything goes well you're left with a few things before your first war:

A) Roads absolutely everywhere, which is often overlooked.
B) Drill/CG 1 Archers on every city
C) A madrassa and a half in your two oldest cities (I usually only have two by this point anyway.)

Take note that your capital dosn't need a madrassa yet, so it gets to catch up on workers and that eventual barracks.