Saladin and Synergy (or lack thereof)

[kniteowl]

I tried a Strat with Saladin on BTS and made a beeline to Feudalism taking Monarchy from Oracle, HR+Cottages= very fast research rate lol. I was lucky enough to get Bronze in my FC so I Rush my nearest rival with a combination of Drill III Longbows and CR II Axes. Using my Longbows as substitute Catapults was very useful as I know that My Drill III Longbows will always damage the top defender and there's also a fair chance of my Drill III longbow winning a battle.

Cats in BTS can no longer kill units on the attack, so the only real disadvantage is Cost and Collateral damage but on the plus side Fuedalism opens up Vassalage for +2XP to units in all of my cities without requiring a religion (like theocracy) and high civics cost is actually quite low when you're empire is about 3-5 cities with a Pop<6, there's also the synergy with Serfdom allowing me to build those cottages fast while being able to increase my happy cap through HR civic and spiritual allows me to siwtch in and out of them without any cost.

It makes me wonder if the Arabs need a boost with the UU, seems a bit underpowered, I was thinking about moving Keshiks (Mongol UU) to Knights (Guilds) and moving Camel Archers back to Horse Archers (HBR). With the UU earlier they might be more useful being resourceless, I can see it now Oracle to HBR and rushing with them .

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I thought we were talking about Saladin here and a strategy, so to say getting a knight instead is no difference because for one, the knight is replaced by the camel archer for the arabs and the last time i looked, they had the same attack and movement, with the camel archer having some better effects. Also you can use some civilizations if they are your favorite to try and develop a strategy that proves people wrong like using a peacefull civ to go on the warmonging side. The game allows you to choose how you want to play and so people can just choose how they want. Thats wat makes the game so fun.

Sure we are talking about Saladin. And of course you can play how you want. But the UU isn't an attacking unit that is going to dominate the battlefields of its time. It just isn't. Certainly you want to get it and put it to interesting use, but people are talking about basing their whole strategy on getting guilds early.

If we are talking about playing a Saladin flavoured game, then which strikes you as more likely - bedding down for peaceful culture expansion with quick temples and holy cities guarded by fanatical defensive soldiers, or a horde of camels conquering the world? Saladin isn't Ghengis Khan.

If a camel archer isn't better at conquering cities, why would you rush it for an early military advantage? Its a defensive unit - a safe option that you can build when others have knights to counter their knights without worrying about resources. You don't need them to protect you until others have knights in which case you can trade for guilds.

The UU in this case is out of sync with the strategy that the leader traits and UB do well with. Its main claim to fame is that you can always get it - which is useful for a leader that probably isn't going to indulge in lots of early conquering. That makes it a defensive unit to me - something I will acquire as soon as I can, but the UB and leader traits will have far more of an effect on how I play.

But of course play Saladin however you want. I look forward to meeting Saladin Khan's horde of camels.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

It makes me wonder if the Arabs need a boost with the UU, seems a bit underpowered, I was thinking about moving Keshiks (Mongol UU) to Knights (Guilds) and moving Camel Archers back to Horse Archers (HBR). With the UU earlier they might be more useful being resourceless, I can see it now Oracle to HBR and rushing with them .

I would like to see Camel archers get a bonus vs knights or mounted units in general. That would fit with the protective leader theme as they would make excellent defensive units to take out enemy pillagers.

 

[MangleMeElmo]

I would like to see Camel archers get a bonus vs knights or mounted units in general. That would fit with the protective leader theme as they would make excellent defensive units to take out enemy pillagers.

Also, I've read that horses become very uncooperative in the presence of camels. That alone is a good excuse to give camel archers a bonus vs. mounted units.

 

[ATopic22]

Sure we are talking about Saladin. And of course you can play how you want. But the UU isn't an attacking unit that is going to dominate the battlefields of its time. It just isn't. Certainly you want to get it and put it to interesting use, but people are talking about basing their whole strategy on getting guilds early.

If we are talking about playing a Saladin flavoured game, then which strikes you as more likely - bedding down for peaceful culture expansion with quick temples and holy cities guarded by fanatical defensive soldiers, or a horde of camels conquering the world? Saladin isn't Ghengis Khan.

If a camel archer isn't better at conquering cities, why would you rush it for an early military advantage? Its a defensive unit - a safe option that you can build when others have knights to counter their knights without worrying about resources. You don't need them to protect you until others have knights in which case you can trade for guilds.

The UU in this case is out of sync with the strategy that the leader traits and UB do well with. Its main claim to fame is that you can always get it - which is useful for a leader that probably isn't going to indulge in lots of early conquering. That makes it a defensive unit to me - something I will acquire as soon as I can, but the UB and leader traits will have far more of an effect on how I play.

But of course play Saladin however you want. I look forward to meeting Saladin Khan's horde of camels.

Im sorry if I offended you in any way. I see your point and of course trying to get guilds early is no different than knights so sorry.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Im sorry if I offended you in any way. I see your point and of course trying to get guilds early is no different than knights so sorry.

No offense taken. An interesting argument in fact.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Actually, Camel Archers start with a 25&#37; withdraw chance. With Flanking II, that goes up to 55%. They work well for softening defenders after the Catapults have worn down the defences so then your CR units can mop up and break through. With a small chance of winning and a huge chance to withdraw, they will gain experience. If they have that in BtS, I'd like to try a Charismatic leader with Saladin for faster promoting CA units...

 

[madscientist]

OK, trying another start with Saladin which still utilizes his traits/UB I hope. This time on Monarch/marathon/huge maps.
1) edned with with a probably Pangea map based on I have met 10 other CIVs already.
2) no early religion, I beeline hunting archery to survive (monarch barsb are brutal on these settings), popped agriculture. Had marble and gold in capital fat cross, so good commerce and after getting miningbranze working/meditation/priesthood built oracle while teching pottery/writing to finish at the same time. Founded Confuscism. Building Massadra in capital and plan to get a GP for theology (prophet) or phil (scientist), then get the other.
3) I have 3 three cities, one having copper and horse are where I plan my fourth city. I will stop there and build my economy and cities up.
4) Teching alphabet now, then literature for GL which I will put into my second city. Capital will be for GP and second city GS.
5) National wonder plans, iron works/oxford in capital: national epic/wall street in second city (conficism city).

 

[madscientist]

To finish this post:

Early game so far and I may not finish it before I get BTS, but I think Saladin may be too week militarily early on to rush hinduism/Buddhism early. Perhaps nailing the mid late religions are a better route and either go hunting/archery, mining/BW, or agriculture or hunting/AH.