ATopic22
Clan SPADE Captain
Im not here to argue but i want to say playing with Saladin rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Saladin and Synergy (or lack thereof)
- Thread starter Leitmotif
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Do you really see the madrassa as mainly a culture generator?? I don't agree with that at all.
It's a GPP/Research generator.
Well, he was way cool in Kingdom of Heaven, but in Civ IV, he's mostly a flavor leader. Not fabulous, but can be fun to try now and again
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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- Mar 16, 2006
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I think he is unfortunately the weakest leader, but (repeating some things):
* Cultural: Mysticism and Madrassa for religions, Spiritual for temples and ~diplomacy~.
* Protective Archers for protection you if you go for early religion instead of military
* Camel Archers for protection and breakout if you go for midgame religion instead of other stuff
* Judaism/Christianity/Islam. It's easy to get the lightbulbs and the shrines.
* In general, the Monotheism/Monarchy/Feudalism/Theology/Divine Right branch. Feudalism gives Protective Longbows and is on the way to Camel Archers.
It's particularly unfortunate for Saladin that Divine Right isn't better.
* Cultural: Mysticism and Madrassa for religions, Spiritual for temples and ~diplomacy~.
* Protective Archers for protection you if you go for early religion instead of military
* Camel Archers for protection and breakout if you go for midgame religion instead of other stuff
* Judaism/Christianity/Islam. It's easy to get the lightbulbs and the shrines.
* In general, the Monotheism/Monarchy/Feudalism/Theology/Divine Right branch. Feudalism gives Protective Longbows and is on the way to Camel Archers.
It's particularly unfortunate for Saladin that Divine Right isn't better.
futurehermit
Deity
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- Apr 3, 2006
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Saladin blows imo. His UB is really quite good however. The problem is that GSs and GPs don't really help you beeline his UU...SUX!
Basically, I think you just have to play him without his UU.
I think the best way to play him is as follows:
1) Cultural victory with 9 (adjusted for map size) cities
2) Spiritual = cheap temples
3) Protective = helpful if you get attacked in 1st 1/2 of the game (later in the game you will fall behind in tech and have to rely on diplomacy)
4) UB = just run priests off the library. This is handy. Temples will give you some, shrine will give you some, and then UB will give you two more. Focus on prophet lightbulbing religions, using prophets for shrines, and settling prophets for $ and prod.
Prophet mania, basically.
Oh, and can you say Angkor Wat???
Basically, I think you just have to play him without his UU.
I think the best way to play him is as follows:
1) Cultural victory with 9 (adjusted for map size) cities
2) Spiritual = cheap temples
3) Protective = helpful if you get attacked in 1st 1/2 of the game (later in the game you will fall behind in tech and have to rely on diplomacy)
4) UB = just run priests off the library. This is handy. Temples will give you some, shrine will give you some, and then UB will give you two more. Focus on prophet lightbulbing religions, using prophets for shrines, and settling prophets for $ and prod.
Prophet mania, basically.
Oh, and can you say Angkor Wat???
The most Obvious aim for a Cultural Victory... Although I've been thinking about a Fuedalims beeline, Take Monarchy from Oracle and grow your pop plus cottage your cities while building Cheap defensive units to increase your happy cap while you work those cottages to produce commerce and research towards Fuedalism and rush someone with Protective longbows and with the Vassalage Civic that's 5XP with Barracks in other words Drill III Longbows. There's also early Serfdom where you can improve your tiles faster and since you're spiritual you can switch between Slavery and Serfdom easily... every 5 turns if you have to.
and with 2 capitals it's easier to achieve a cultural victory earlier.
and with 2 capitals it's easier to achieve a cultural victory earlier.
Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
I like Saladin.
First off, the protective with Archers is good for the early game.
Secondly, the Madrassa is cool. the extra culture pops your borders faster. If you get the Pyramids, Representation will give you extra science from the extra priests. The extra priests will help you get the religious race techs or build the shrines and harvest all that incoming gold...
Because you are spiritual, you can switch to Police State when you need it. Also later you can switch religious civics as needed too.
The Camel Archer is cool. True it doesn't fit with the traits, or the UB, but it has that 25% withdrawal. With Flanking 2, that's 55%. Really good odds to retreat if the RNG turns on you...
Maybe they don't appear to fit, but the whole is indeed greater than the sum of the parts...
First off, the protective with Archers is good for the early game.
Secondly, the Madrassa is cool. the extra culture pops your borders faster. If you get the Pyramids, Representation will give you extra science from the extra priests. The extra priests will help you get the religious race techs or build the shrines and harvest all that incoming gold...
Because you are spiritual, you can switch to Police State when you need it. Also later you can switch religious civics as needed too.
The Camel Archer is cool. True it doesn't fit with the traits, or the UB, but it has that 25% withdrawal. With Flanking 2, that's 55%. Really good odds to retreat if the RNG turns on you...
Maybe they don't appear to fit, but the whole is indeed greater than the sum of the parts...
Radarmaker
Chieftain
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- Jul 19, 2007
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- 19
No sir, I do not!
I'm saying how it can be adapted to work as if it were a culture generator, among other things. Start building a madrassa in a size one city, and by the time it's size three or four depending on the resources nearby, you'll be able to whip out a very good building that will last the whole game, instead of just a useless 1 culture phallic symbol.
I think I'm going to play a game on Monarch and post screenshots to demonstrate exactly how this works.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Sorry, but I am alittle confused why everyone thinks Saladin is only suitable for culture. Now I play marathonspeed/huge maps usually Prince level. This really requires a complete game, very difficult to win with an axe rush/cavalry rush, you need to play it out. For this reason I saladin is pretty good for a complete game, providing you can overcome his week start. Some more comments
1) UB. It's just plain very powerful. I have read people saying hyuna's terrace is overpowered because it adds 2 culture, but Saladin's Massadra add the same amount of culture, one tech later, at a little more production. Plus it adds 2 priests. He can pop out great prophets or great scientist like a philospohical leader in a well fed great person production city (one of the cities can be this). Running 4 specialists without caste system (require loss of slavery option) with just one building.
2) I always thought spiritual was a powerful trait because of no anarchy, and the ability to build up to 7 buildings twice as fast in each city. You can also easily switch to other AIs favorite civic for diplomatic reasons.
3) Founding religions. OK, alot of people say just go and take other shrines/holy cities. Not so easy on huge maps unless you have an indian or Isabella next door. Again saladin strength is to found several religions himself AND buid the shrines thanks to his UB.
4) Diplomacy. If he founds many early relgions he can spread them to certain AIs while retaining no state religion himself (yes, no state religion). Say he found hinduism/judaism (not a stretch if he can protect himself with an early GW) and maybe 2 of theology/taoism/confuscism. Start sending missionaries of one religion to AI A and another to AI B, hopefully they will be different. A little tech bribary and you can watch the world erupt into a religious war while you stay theologically neutral until you see who comes out on top or stronger, then switch to that religion.
5) UU. OK, he is protective meaning really well promoted archery and gunpowder units from the get go. His UU is geared towards protecting himself regardless or resources period. You have a choice between settling a good food/production city but there is another garbage area with the only source of horses, take the food city build a masadra and runs priests.scientist instead (it is an option). Cavalry is the biggest problem so you would beeline to longer route to rifling (printing press/replacable parts/rifling) than military tradition (nationalism/military tradition), that is Saladins strength. Get rifling/camel archers to protect yourself if you have to. Now if you have horses and iron all the better to war monger, but you do not need it.
6) Economy. Done correctly saladin can be an economic monster, running endless priests for the gold and great prohets, plus the added production to build market/grocers/banks faster. Add ankor wat and each priest from is producing 2 hammers and 2 gold (assuming market/grocer/bank built). All my games, the more money you have the more emphasis you can place on science.
7) I already covered the wonders before but would add getting Ankow wat, especially if phil can be founded by bulbing philosophy.
So I think saladin is suited to win at not just cultural, but diplomatic or space wins. He is definitely not really suited for conquest or domination.
1) UB. It's just plain very powerful. I have read people saying hyuna's terrace is overpowered because it adds 2 culture, but Saladin's Massadra add the same amount of culture, one tech later, at a little more production. Plus it adds 2 priests. He can pop out great prophets or great scientist like a philospohical leader in a well fed great person production city (one of the cities can be this). Running 4 specialists without caste system (require loss of slavery option) with just one building.
2) I always thought spiritual was a powerful trait because of no anarchy, and the ability to build up to 7 buildings twice as fast in each city. You can also easily switch to other AIs favorite civic for diplomatic reasons.
3) Founding religions. OK, alot of people say just go and take other shrines/holy cities. Not so easy on huge maps unless you have an indian or Isabella next door. Again saladin strength is to found several religions himself AND buid the shrines thanks to his UB.
4) Diplomacy. If he founds many early relgions he can spread them to certain AIs while retaining no state religion himself (yes, no state religion). Say he found hinduism/judaism (not a stretch if he can protect himself with an early GW) and maybe 2 of theology/taoism/confuscism. Start sending missionaries of one religion to AI A and another to AI B, hopefully they will be different. A little tech bribary and you can watch the world erupt into a religious war while you stay theologically neutral until you see who comes out on top or stronger, then switch to that religion.
5) UU. OK, he is protective meaning really well promoted archery and gunpowder units from the get go. His UU is geared towards protecting himself regardless or resources period. You have a choice between settling a good food/production city but there is another garbage area with the only source of horses, take the food city build a masadra and runs priests.scientist instead (it is an option). Cavalry is the biggest problem so you would beeline to longer route to rifling (printing press/replacable parts/rifling) than military tradition (nationalism/military tradition), that is Saladins strength. Get rifling/camel archers to protect yourself if you have to. Now if you have horses and iron all the better to war monger, but you do not need it.
6) Economy. Done correctly saladin can be an economic monster, running endless priests for the gold and great prohets, plus the added production to build market/grocers/banks faster. Add ankor wat and each priest from is producing 2 hammers and 2 gold (assuming market/grocer/bank built). All my games, the more money you have the more emphasis you can place on science.
7) I already covered the wonders before but would add getting Ankow wat, especially if phil can be founded by bulbing philosophy.
So I think saladin is suited to win at not just cultural, but diplomatic or space wins. He is definitely not really suited for conquest or domination.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
For the record, Saladin is not my favorite leader either. He's just not weak. I prefer washington, Qin or Ramese II.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
If a major part of Saladin's advantage is that he doesn't need strategic resources, the common "expand quickly to grab resources" approach really doesn't fit. Maybe what Saladin needs is a fundamentally new idea.
?? Everyone needs strategic resources. If you mean that his protective archers will make an empire, then you are wrong.
Mmm.. While I appreciate that, I think you're forgetting that the best way of grabbing those is often to have a strategic resource.
You're not grabbing them with archers, that's for sure.
Still, if the operative word in your statement was "Sometimes", then I might agree with you in certain cases (lots of empty land etc.)
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
It is best to have metal and horse resources, that's a given, all the more power to the arabs if they can get swordmen/axemen/cavalry. Saladin is best equipped to survive until rifling, steel and oil if they are not available. His UU and protective allow him to survive, so he can get several religions which is what I think his advantage is. If you are not founding religions and shrines I think you are missing saladins strengths. His religion will make him an empire, not his troops.
Isn't Montezuma, or Huyana Capac for that matter, equally well equipped, at least in the ancient age? After that anyone can still go the musketman+trebuchet route.
With a successful oracle->Feudalism slingshot (on the religion path, too, if you're into that) Saladin is ok, tho..
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
But if all leader were built arround using resources to get what they want, the game would be duller. Saladin offers another path to achieving victory.
See my above post: "anyone can still go the musketman+trebuchet route"
[EDIT] To clarify what I'm trying to say: Saladin is only (very) marginally less screwed than anyone else if he doesn't get strategic resources in the ancient age. Axes/Swords are just so good. And it's just due to his protective trait anyhow, not anything Saladin specific (the UU is too late.. muskets/trebs are readily available by then)
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I think it's the combo of Sal's trait (highly promoted archers) and later UU that protects him better, and do not forget the Massadra for extra priests for faster prophets and bulbing theology for the +2 promotion from theocracy. Neither HC's UU or Monty UU can protect cities while Sal can have garrison III, Drill I archers in every city. War is still a major concern whcih is where diplomacy via the founded religions play a part.
OK, given no metal or horses (this does happen) which leader is the best to have? Unless you plan to capture enemy cities with archers.
Again, drafted muskets + whipped trebs are viable by the time Camel Archers are relevant.
Nice, but not an essential military advantage. Bulbing Theology (I hardly ever do this) is not a major advantage
This is true, but you do not want to be holed up in your cities. You want to consider other alternatives, since enemies pillaging your tiles will lead to complete disaster.
If I lack metal or horses, I want a leader that gets me construction as quickly as possible. Of course, in that case protective is rather nice, but I don't see why I would want Saladin specifically. If I had e.g. stone/marble I'd much rather be Qin. Otherwise Churchill might come to mind, seeing as I'd possibly be facing a lot of rifle age combat.
Also don't forget that in the ancient age, Mansa Musa is one of the better bets if you lack strategic resources. People seem to forget about his skirmishers in all the excitement about Holkans etc.
