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Saturn Embassy & Intelligence

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Kaleb, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Reading the chatlog with Lord Parkin, I realize that I actually warned L.Parkin that I WOULD share the chatlog if someone on my team asked to see it... So I guess I should live up to my word...
    Spoiler :


    @:king: - About your question regarding whether they know I was representing my own wishes and not necessarily the teams'...Be serious, do you really think that a player as experienced as Lord Parkin would really believe that I have the power to unilaterally offer anything? Obviously he knows that I am speaking for myself, not the team... That is why he put my name in the letter (to highlight the fact that he knows the alliance was MY idea not the whole teams' idea) and why he sent an email instead of continuing to negotiate through chat. But he would not have sent anything without the MSN conversation happening first. As damnrunner has already pointed out, there is no harm in us offering some kind of deal. We can always back out later.

    Everyone knows (or should know) that what is offered in chat will have to be cleared through the team. I repeat that I refuse to be hamstrung by anti-chat rules. I tried to be respectful and discrete about this, but my attempts were rebuffed.
     
  2. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    They appear to want an alliance if we give them all of our tech. That is crazy. we could maybe offer them an equal tech exchange. That is fair and stil better than what they would get from Sancta.
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    We could also incorporate my original proposed note in our response to Saturn:

     
  4. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I think sommers post is a decent one to send. At worst we have to go back on our word - at best we isolate Sancta.

    I think that in order to make this treaty work with MS and Team Cav - Saturn will not get immediate tech parity with us. They would only get an equal amount of tech shared as we move forward.

    Right now the 3 teams in the alliance each put in one tech and expect two techs back in return. Or in other words a ~200% return on beakers invested. With Saturn in the mix it would be a return of 300%. So if Saturn joins us they should get this same rate of return. They will remain behind us, Cav, and MS by the same amount they are right now. But we will all continue to advance at the same faster pace.

    Saturn still has the opportunity to tech a lot faster - yet we don't give then something for nothing.
     
  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    No, I am not asking that... It is obvious that folks would be curious and why they would be curious about what is being said...

    My point was that knowing what I said in chat to induce Saturn to make contact with us, has little relevance to responding to the deal that Saturn offered. All we really need to do is read what they are offering, and respond to their offer. Still I do understand the curiosity part, but it is just curiosity for curiosity's sake. All this is mute anyway, since I decided to post this particular chatlog.

    But it does bring up an interesting test of your comment :king: dosen't it? Because I say the chatlog is irrelevant, and you seem to think that it is relevant. So I ask you... Has your mind been changed by seeing my chatlog? Do you have a different opinion about an alliance with Saturn than you did before you saw my chatlog? Does anyone?

    If the answer is no, then I would say that me posting my chatlog was irrelevant and that the stir-up over it was much-ado-about nothing.
     
  6. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    No, but he may quite reasonably think that you are at least representing an opinion that is shared by others on your team! At least it's clear from the log that you've always been talking in the first person singular rather than plural...

    From Parkin:

    Yeah, he ain't the only one!

    And this:
    I've got same question, what are your thoughts on this Sommers? What kind of plan are you working to in all of these chats??
     
  7. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Actually yes. They see this as a long-term alliance with us which will last beyond joining a 4-way pact to get rid of SANCTA. If we are going to do this then it will be us+Saturn vs Cav+MS and I don't see how we'll win that one...

    Anyway, I need to finish the turn log and get to bed - will try to comment more tomorrow
     
  8. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    All very interesting.

    Thank you for posting your chat log Summers. I look forward to your reposting of the other log with SANCTA.

    We have to ask ourselves two questions. First, is Sommers proposal really feasible? Second, do we really want? Personally, I need to think about this for a while.
     
  9. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Our diplo is once again out of control :(
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I like Kaleb's proposed terminology and added it to my proposed note:

    Hello Lord Parkin,

    We feel we must preface our remarks with a statement that Sommerswerd was not negotiating in any official capacity in his recent chat with you. His communication with you was not authorized by our team and the opinions he expressed were his own and do not necessarily represent those of our team.

    Your reading of the wider geo-political situation described in your previous message is wrong, but we won't explain where or how it's wrong. Suffice to say that hopefully it's not your biggest strategic error of the game! You're not on our hit list, and we traded with MS and Cav more than you for the simple reason that we had contact with them before we had contact with you.

    You are correct in thinking there are trust issues between us, the greatest being that your team proved untrustworthy regarding a tech trade that we partially paid for up front. It did not help to foster good relations between us when you traded feudalism to SANCTA. Surely your team realizes they have attacked us. Frankly, the biggest obstacle to friendship between Kazakhstan and Saturn is our fear that any techs we trade to you will be forwarded to the ninjas at SANCTA. We see no way of guaranteeing you will not pass on our secrets to our enemy, other than the word of your team and I'm sure you can understand we have little faith in that right now.

    If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between our teams then the first step is to send us feudalism.

    donsig of Kazakhstan

    @ Sommers: The purpose of the first paragraph is to ensure Saturn knows you were speaking for yourself and not our team. Any support for sending this version?
     
  11. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    How about starting with:

    I take it that you realise that Sommersward was not acting in any official capacity on behalf of Kazakstan and the opinions he expressed were his own and not the general consensus. Nonetheless he raises some interesting issues.

    Also, the point we need to make quite clear is the deal breaker is Feudalism. If they are not willing to honour their commitments after we gave them techs up front it is pointless trying to discuss anything further. So I would end:

    If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between us then without doubt you must understand that the first step will be to honour your previous commitment and send us Feudalism.
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I have many issues with Donsig's proposed note. Also, as no one has expressed support for Donsig's note and damnrunner has expressed support for mine, I would say that my note should be the starting point. This note combines my two proposed notes.

    As I have already said, I think Lord Parkin, DMOC, and Plako are all experienced enough to know that our OFFICIAL team-position is what we send through OFFICIAL email channels. Donsig's insistence on mentioning me, is just an attempt to punish me, and discredit me to the other team, and serves no other real purpose. I can not agree to this.

    Also, the whole focus of Donsig's note seems a little mis-guided. The focus of the note should be to sweet talk Saturn into giving us Feudalism. The note should begin and end with this focus in mind. Donsig's note seems to focus on:
    1. Punish Sommers,
    2. Try to hide the alliance
    3. Lie to Saturn (by telling them they are wrong but we wont tell them how:confused:)
    4. Insult Saturn (by accusing them of making stategic errors)
    5. Accusing Saturn of being untrustworthy (ironic since your proposed note lies about the alliance outright)
    6. Guilt-tripping Saturn (utterly pointless, they know we paid up front wee don't need to remind them)
    7. Being antagonistic (by Talking about "obstacles" to friendship rather than paths to friendship)
    8. Reminding Saturn that we don't trust them (also unnecessarily antagonistic)

    Only after engaging in all this endless griping and bridge burning, does Donsig's note actually get to the point, ie "send us Feudalism." Why would they want to send us anything after listening to all that whining and complaining? This note is all wrong, the tone is wrong, the focus is wrong, the language is wrong, the note should be scrapped.

    Can folks not see that the cat-is-out-of-the-bag on our alliance? There is utterly no point in trying to hide it or deny it. Trying to deny it just makes us look untrustworthy. In fact, that is Saturn's only potential complaint against us... That we were dishonest to hide the alliance and not invite them to join. That is why starting our note with a "You can't trust Sommers" statement is just foolish. All it will do is reinforce the thought that we Kazakh's can't be trusted, and drive home the idea that "ONLY Sommers wanted to make friends, the rest of us DID NOT." Why tip our hand that way?

    At any rate, I would not be in favor of any language in the note that refers to me that is not gender-neutral. I am very sensitive about this issue (as many of our team already know). I have had problems with this in the past that I don't care to describe.
     
  13. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    I don't fully agree with the way Sommers conducted the chat but I don't think we need to beat him it up in our post to Saturn.

    It will be clear from the content of the note and the tone that it's not 100% in-line with what Sommers said.

    We're missing this out of both proposed notes and I can't see Saturn agreeing to any trade without it: If they give us Feudalism we agree not to give it to another civ for X number of turns, and they agree to do the same with any techs we give them.

    If they give us Feudalism then we need to give them something back as they already have Maths. I would suggest a non-military tech, perhaps Aesthetics?

    And donsig is that really your signature? Do we really want to hang out our dirty laundry in public? If so how about this: "there no "I" in team, but there is "me" in Sommerswerd" :lol:
     
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    The question was, "What happens when Saturn is destroyed and there is just an alliance of four left"... Right?

    To me, that seems obvious. We dump MS right? Isn't that what we have been planning to do all along? The three "permanent" allies go after MS. After that, Cavalieros will still be ahead in score, and we will be "best-buddies" with Saturn, the ones who brought them into the alliance. See how this is panning out? What is wrong with that scenario? We will be in position at the end to pick which one of our permanent allies we want to side with, based on their game-long performance towards us.
     
  15. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    And after MS are "dumped" - what then?
     
  16. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Then the 3 permanent allies go after MS...MS is elimminated. Then Kaz gets to choose who we want to side with, based on the in-game / out-of-game situation.
     
  17. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    yeah, I got that bit - but what's that likely to mean?

    A) Cav+Sat go after us = we are dead
    B) Cav+Kaz go after Sat = easy pickings surely
    C) Kaz+Sat go after Cav = but then wouldn't we be better off with MS who seem more developed?
     
  18. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    I would not agree on giving any tech to Saturn as I know they will give it to Sancta..it is silly of us in the first place to believe that Saturn would give us Feudalism for math (what for???) and it is getting even sillier to try and "sweettalk them" like they are a girl at a bar we are trying to do an one night stand.

    We either get a commitment from the other 2 teams to go on a fully fledged 4 team alliance (which I am OK with), or we stop bull****ing them and doing pointless discussions.
     
  19. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    The deal included more than math. We gave them iron working and alphabet already and they only gave us archery. The math for feudalism deal was supposed to bring the beakers back into a closer balance. We would have come out 10 :science: ahead but we '"paid" for that by giving some tech up front. It was a fair deal and we were not silly to think they would live up to their part of the bargain.

    I must insist that we include an explicit notice in our message that Sommerswerd does not speak for our team. If everyone on Saturn already knows this then it shouldn't hurt for us to come right out and say it, right? If the team does not agree to include such an explicit notice then I guess I can just start having my own private chats with other teams and send out some private messages so I can be sure these other teams hear what I have to say. Maybe if we all have our own individual chats with the other teams one of them will sort out what our majority position is and get back to us on it.

    What's missing from this whole fiasco is a team discussion on whether we want to ally with Saturn. I wouldn't give them any techs, not even non-military techs. Why give them aesthetics and put them (and maybe SANCTA) that much closer to music? And I am not at all convinced that Saturn would be a better ally then the Mad Ones.

    Here is my revised preoposal which uses Bolkonski's suggestions:

    Hello Lord Parkin,

    I take it that you realise that Sommersward was not acting in any official capacity on behalf of Kazakstan and the opinions he expressed were his own and not the general consensus. Nonetheless he raises some interesting issues.

    Your reading of the wider geo-political situation described in your previous message is wrong, but we won't explain where or how it's wrong. Suffice to say that hopefully it's not your biggest strategic error of the game! You're not on our hit list, and we traded with MS and Cav more than you for the simple reason that we had contact with them before we had contact with you.

    You are correct in thinking there are trust issues between us, the greatest being that your team proved untrustworthy regarding a tech trade that we partially paid for up front. It did not help to foster good relations between us when you traded feudalism to SANCTA. Surely your team realizes they have attacked us. Frankly, the biggest obstacle to friendship between Kazakhstan and Saturn is our fear that any techs we trade to you will be forwarded to the ninjas at SANCTA. We see no way of guaranteeing you will not pass on our secrets to our enemy, other than the word of your team and I'm sure you can understand we have little faith in that right now.

    If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between us then without doubt you must understand that the first step will be to honour your previous commitment and send us Feudalism.

    donsig of Kazakhstan


    @Kaleb: Do we really want to agree not to pass feudalism on for X turns? Why jeopardize our good relations with Team Cav and MS just to get a tech our alliance can research anyway? Oh, and that's a great signature suggestion. I might use it.

    @Sommers: The point of my proposed message is to bring our diplomacy back under team control. I, personally, would not mind you talking to other teams if you posted the chat logs so we'd know what you're telling them. Since you refuse to fully disclose what you're saying to them we really have no choice but to make it perfectly clear that you do not speak for the team. If we were privy to what you've told them we would not have to do this since we'd be able to correct or clarify anything you said that the team doesn't agree on. This wouldn't even have to be done with an official team email - we could just ask you to handle it next time you chatted. Your refusal to post your chat logs polarizes this issue just as your insistence on automatically polling certain issues polarized polling within our forums. I am not against polls or chats as they are both necessary in this game. I am against bad polls and bad chatting since either can ruin the fun of the game.

    Should we post a poll to determine which of the two proposed notes should be sent to Saturn? In addition to the Sommerswerd and donsig versions I'd include an option to say nothing to Saturn. Anyone else want to put forth another version for consideration in a poll?
     
  20. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    We can't make this offer without first checking with Cav and MS to see they are ok with it.

    I can't see Saturn just giving us Feudalism a) for nothing and b) without a guarantee we won't pass it on for free to Cav and MS. Asking them to do so is a waste of time.

    I got an interesting message from King Morgan:

     

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