Saturn Embassy & Intelligence

[Sommerswerd]

Reading the chatlog with Lord Parkin, I realize that I actually warned L.Parkin that I WOULD share the chatlog if someone on my team asked to see it... So I guess I should live up to my word...

Spoiler :

Sommerswerd Lord OK right down to business...
Sommerswerd Lord I want Saturn to ally with Kazakhs
Sommerswerd Lord can we work on that possibility?
Lord Sommerswerd erm... I don't see how or why that would happen at this point... you already seem to have 2 other allies?
Lord Sommerswerd if you brought us up to par on tech, I guess we could think about something
Sommerswerd Lord That is actually what I had in mind
Sommerswerd Lord If you would reciprocate?
Sommerswerd Lord
Lord Sommerswerd if you brought us up to par in tech, I think we'd certainly send Feudalism
Sommerswerd Lord What about an alliance?
Lord Sommerswerd what kind of alliance?
Sommerswerd Lord Assuming an agreement on the other thingd
Lord Sommerswerd Saturn has no military to speak of
Sommerswerd Lord Noted
Sommerswerd Lord So?
Sommerswerd Lord Alliance? I understand if you need to check with team...
Lord Sommerswerd I don't understand what you mean by "alliance"... you need to clear that up first. There are so many different kinds of MP alliances, so it's important to make sure we're clear... tech alliance, defensive alliance, aggressive alliance, espionage alliance...?
Lord Sommerswerd but yeah, we'd be happy to negotiate the terms of some kind of alliance if you sent all your tech
Lord Sommerswerd of course I'd need to put it to the team
Lord Sommerswerd and the tech would definitely be a prerequisite... we're not going to agree to an alliance while we're stuck in the stone age
Lord Sommerswerd you still there?
Sommerswerd Lord OK, to be clear, I mean an alliance where we are allies: Offensiely, defensively, share tech, and espy info... A total alliance.
Sommerswerd Lord Is that clear enough to bring up to you team?
Lord Sommerswerd how long would it last?
Lord Sommerswerd presumably not indefinitely
Lord Sommerswerd needs to be clear from the outset
Lord Sommerswerd I'm aware that since we'd be the 4th member, as soon as SANCTA were gone we'd probably be the first to get kicked out
Sommerswerd Lord Forever. Meaning until all other teams are elimminated, or until one of us wins space race. However, we would have to negotiate between teams to figure out which, ubderstandably.
Lord Sommerswerd all "other" teams?
Lord Sommerswerd meaning just SANCTA/
Lord Sommerswerd ?
Sommerswerd Lord understandably
Sommerswerd Lord No meaning everyone besides us and you.
Sommerswerd Lord I want to be clear
Lord Sommerswerd but you appear to be allied to Cav and MS
Lord Sommerswerd why do you suddenly prefer us to them?
Sommerswerd Lord We don't
Sommerswerd Lord you appear to be allied to SANCTA
Sommerswerd Lord why do you prefer them
Sommerswerd Lord ?
Sommerswerd Lord You dont
Sommerswerd Lord You prefer to win
Sommerswerd Lord You prefer the best situaton possible for Saturn
Sommerswerd Lord As I prefer the best situation possible for Kazakhs
Lord Sommerswerd so how does it work when SANCTA are gone and there is suddenly an alliance of four?
Sommerswerd Lord That is the same question you just asked.
Sommerswerd Lord Right?
Lord Sommerswerd no, it's very different
Sommerswerd Lord You have no reason to believe me
Sommerswerd Lord So why engage in deception?
Lord Sommerswerd do you just throw everything up in the air and declare war on Cav?
Lord Sommerswerd Deception???
Sommerswerd Lord I say again. I seek an alliance until all other teams are gone
Sommerswerd Lord besides us and you.
Sommerswerd Lord Not deception by you
Sommerswerd Lord Why would we declare war on Cav?
Sommerswerd Lord I dont understand your question
Sommerswerd Lord I am asking you to ally with us
Sommerswerd Lord What does Cav have to do with it
Sommerswerd Lord ?
Lord Sommerswerd What I mean is this: You've been buddies with Cav and MS for ages. So what, you suddenly up and backstab them in the middle of the game?
Lord Sommerswerd I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from
Sommerswerd Lord Why do we have to backstab anyone? You are not at war with any other team
Sommerswerd Lord we dont need to backstab anyone to form an alliance with you. Right?
Sommerswerd Lord Does that make sense?
Lord Sommerswerd No, but you need to backstab someone to eliminate MS and Cav.
Sommerswerd Lord We are nowhere near elimminating anyone... Can we at least agree on that?
Lord Sommerswerd Sure
Sommerswerd Lord It will be months and months before anyone gets elimminated
Lord Sommerswerd But I don't understand how any of this could possibly work
Sommerswerd Lord So I am talking about now
Sommerswerd Lord Why?
Sommerswerd Lord Why cant you ally with us
Sommerswerd Lord ?
Sommerswerd Lord Give me a sec... BRB
Sommerswerd Lord BRB
Lord Sommerswerd It's not necessarily that we can't, it's just that we need to have some level of trust and understanding first. You can't come to us out of the blue like this and expect immediate friendship.
Lord Sommerswerd To be honest, right now it seems far more likely that you just want to placate us until SANCTA are gone. Then you eliminate us. Then you and MS war with Cav, and finish off the game.
Lord Sommerswerd We seem like the fourth wheel to the tricycle.
Lord Sommerswerd I'm just calling it like I see it.
Sommerswerd Lord That makes perfect sense
Sommerswerd Lord I have another view for you
Sommerswerd Lord I wanted to make you our permanent allies until the end.
Sommerswerd Lord But we met the others teams first. So when we met you, we did a test trade agreement to see if you could be trusted.
Sommerswerd Lord If all went well, then we would make a permanent offense/defense/tech/espy alliance with you untill the end.\
Sommerswerd Lord But you balked
Sommerswerd Lord So here we are
Lord Sommerswerd Why with us?
Sommerswerd Lord Simple]
Lord Sommerswerd Above any of the other teams, before you'd met us or knew where we were?
Sommerswerd Lord No No
Sommerswerd Lord After we met EVERYONE
Sommerswerd Lord I liked you the best
Sommerswerd Lord and wanted to make our permanent alliance with you
Sommerswerd Lord "like" meaning best potential for an ally
Sommerswerd Lord not boyfriend girlfriend
Lord Sommerswerd yeah
Sommerswerd Lord Want reasons?
Sommerswerd Lord There are many
Lord Sommerswerd We would have liked to have you as an ally too... but then you started trading like crazy with Cav and MS
Lord Sommerswerd seemed like you made the decision to leave us out
Sommerswerd Lord We met them first
Sommerswerd Lord you were last team we met
Lord Sommerswerd yeah... but a lot of the tech trades didn't happen until long after you met us
Sommerswerd Lord Team wanted to get tech trading going ASAP
Sommerswerd Lord So long term tech trades were made... like the ones we made with you.. Right?
Sommerswerd Lord The trades happened after we met you, but the agreements happened earlier
Sommerswerd Lord Does that make sense?
Lord Sommerswerd They didn't seem like the ones we made with you. They seemed to of the free-for-all-gift-everything type...
Sommerswerd Lord Every tech exchange was preceeded by painful, PAINFUL arguments and negotiations by our team... HOWEVER you are correct that we have tended to co=operate more with the teams we met earlier than you. That is what I am trying to address
Sommerswerd Lord I get it that you are suspicious. It all makes sense. I am trying to get us back on the original track.
Lord Sommerswerd Right, but it got to a point where you were about a half a dozen techs ahead (at least), which was insane. I hope you can understand that we eventually saw it as suicide to send Feudalism.
Lord Sommerswerd Okay, well it would certainly be nice if we could fix the current tech problem Saturn has.
Lord Sommerswerd I'll put it to the team anyway.
Lord Sommerswerd And of course fix the issue with the missing Feudalism tech for you.
Sommerswerd Lord OK, well at this point Feudalism is not that important... What is important is that you agree to ally with us. Offense/ Defense/ Special Teams etc...
Sommerswerd Lord LOL
Lord Sommerswerd Well, for us the techs are important... I think most of the team would need to see a big tech offer before their suspicions would be placated.
Sommerswerd Lord Anyway I still want to ally with you until the end. We can share everything going forward. I wish team had agreed to this earlier. But now they are coming around. Let me be clear about what I want... to put that issue aside. If you ally with us, we will give you any tech you want that we have... period. You agree to do the same. That's it for now. We can argue and fight and negotiate and call each other all kinds of dirty, dirty names for the rest if you want. The most important point is that we agree to be real allies moving forward.
Sommerswerd Lord Heelo?
Sommerswerd Lord Hello
Sommerswerd Lord Hello????\
Lord Sommerswerd hi
Lord Sommerswerd posting on the forums, sorry
Sommerswerd Lord What? Are you two different people? Like Superman and Clark Kent? Well I no Lois Lane
Lord Sommerswerd huh?
Sommerswerd Lord LOL never mind
Sommerswerd Lord Answer
Sommerswerd Lord ?
Lord Sommerswerd I said, I'll put it to the team. I can't agree to an alliance by myself, this is a democracy game.
Lord Sommerswerd but hopefully you'll hear back from us soon
Lord Sommerswerd ie next few days
Sommerswerd Lord OK let me know... Use PM to let me know if you want MSM chat and when... It was fun.
Lord Sommerswerd ok, will do
Lord Sommerswerd will probably email to your team actually
Lord Sommerswerd easier
Sommerswerd Lord That would be even better
Sommerswerd Lord ASAP If you can... Also include Chatlog if you care to.
Sommerswerd Lord If you do not let me know, and I will not share it... Otherwise I will upon request.
Sommerswerd Lord Good talking TY
Lord Sommerswerd ok, you too

@ - About your question regarding whether they know I was representing my own wishes and not necessarily the teams'...Be serious, do you really think that a player as experienced as Lord Parkin would really believe that I have the power to unilaterally offer anything? Obviously he knows that I am speaking for myself, not the team... That is why he put my name in the letter (to highlight the fact that he knows the alliance was MY idea not the whole teams' idea) and why he sent an email instead of continuing to negotiate through chat. But he would not have sent anything without the MSN conversation happening first. As damnrunner has already pointed out, there is no harm in us offering some kind of deal. We can always back out later.

Everyone knows (or should know) that what is offered in chat will have to be cleared through the team. I repeat that I refuse to be hamstrung by anti-chat rules. I tried to be respectful and discrete about this, but my attempts were rebuffed.

 

[damnrunner]

They appear to want an alliance if we give them all of our tech. That is crazy. we could maybe offer them an equal tech exchange. That is fair and stil better than what they would get from Sancta.

 

[Sommerswerd]

We could also incorporate my original proposed note in our response to Saturn:

Dear Saturn:

We are greatly dismayed at your apparent decision to ally yourselves to SANCTA. We had high hopes for a lasting partnership with you. We also apologize for not including you fully in our co-operation with Cavalieros, and understand fully how this may have disturbed you. You are correct that we have been engaged in tech trades with Cavalieros and Mad Scientists.

We wish to salvage the possibility of a relationship with you. Would you consider joining us, Cavalieros, and Mad Scientists in a four team tech sharing partnership? We would include you fully in the same relationship that we have with Cavalieros and Mad Scientists, which would be an immediate boost to your tech. Of course this would mean you would have to cut off all ties to SANCTA. Are you interested in such a partnership?

Sommerswerd of Kazakhstan

 

[damnrunner]

I think sommers post is a decent one to send. At worst we have to go back on our word - at best we isolate Sancta.

I think that in order to make this treaty work with MS and Team Cav - Saturn will not get immediate tech parity with us. They would only get an equal amount of tech shared as we move forward.

Right now the 3 teams in the alliance each put in one tech and expect two techs back in return. Or in other words a ~200% return on beakers invested. With Saturn in the mix it would be a return of 300%. So if Saturn joins us they should get this same rate of return. They will remain behind us, Cav, and MS by the same amount they are right now. But we will all continue to advance at the same faster pace.

Saturn still has the opportunity to tech a lot faster - yet we don't give then something for nothing.

 

[Sommerswerd]

C'mon are you seriously asking why we would like to know what people on our own team are proposing to other teams on behalf of our team?

No, I am not asking that... It is obvious that folks would be curious and why they would be curious about what is being said...

My point was that knowing what I said in chat to induce Saturn to make contact with us, has little relevance to responding to the deal that Saturn offered. All we really need to do is read what they are offering, and respond to their offer. Still I do understand the curiosity part, but it is just curiosity for curiosity's sake. All this is mute anyway, since I decided to post this particular chatlog.

But it does bring up an interesting test of your comment dosen't it? Because I say the chatlog is irrelevant, and you seem to think that it is relevant. So I ask you... Has your mind been changed by seeing my chatlog? Do you have a different opinion about an alliance with Saturn than you did before you saw my chatlog? Does anyone?

If the answer is no, then I would say that me posting my chatlog was irrelevant and that the stir-up over it was much-ado-about nothing.

 

[Kaleb]

About your question regarding whether they know I was representing my own wishes and not necessarily the teams'...Be serious, do you really think that a player as experienced as Lord Parkin would really believe that I have the power to unilaterally offer anything?

No, but he may quite reasonably think that you are at least representing an opinion that is shared by others on your team! At least it's clear from the log that you've always been talking in the first person singular rather than plural...

From Parkin:

What I mean is this: You've been buddies with Cav and MS for ages. So what, you suddenly up and backstab them in the middle of the game?

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from

Yeah, he ain't the only one!

And this:

so how does it work when SANCTA are gone and there is suddenly an alliance of four?

I've got same question, what are your thoughts on this Sommers? What kind of plan are you working to in all of these chats??

 

[Kaleb]

Do you have a different opinion about an alliance with Saturn than you did before you saw my chatlog? Does anyone?

Actually yes. They see this as a long-term alliance with us which will last beyond joining a 4-way pact to get rid of SANCTA. If we are going to do this then it will be us+Saturn vs Cav+MS and I don't see how we'll win that one...

Anyway, I need to finish the turn log and get to bed - will try to comment more tomorrow

 

[Bolkonski]

All very interesting.

Thank you for posting your chat log Summers. I look forward to your reposting of the other log with SANCTA.

We have to ask ourselves two questions. First, is Sommers proposal really feasible? Second, do we really want? Personally, I need to think about this for a while.

 

[cav scout]

Our diplo is once again out of control

 

[donsig]

I like Kaleb's proposed terminology and added it to my proposed note:

Hello Lord Parkin,

We feel we must preface our remarks with a statement that Sommerswerd was not negotiating in any official capacity in his recent chat with you. His communication with you was not authorized by our team and the opinions he expressed were his own and do not necessarily represent those of our team.

Your reading of the wider geo-political situation described in your previous message is wrong, but we won't explain where or how it's wrong. Suffice to say that hopefully it's not your biggest strategic error of the game! You're not on our hit list, and we traded with MS and Cav more than you for the simple reason that we had contact with them before we had contact with you.

You are correct in thinking there are trust issues between us, the greatest being that your team proved untrustworthy regarding a tech trade that we partially paid for up front. It did not help to foster good relations between us when you traded feudalism to SANCTA. Surely your team realizes they have attacked us. Frankly, the biggest obstacle to friendship between Kazakhstan and Saturn is our fear that any techs we trade to you will be forwarded to the ninjas at SANCTA. We see no way of guaranteeing you will not pass on our secrets to our enemy, other than the word of your team and I'm sure you can understand we have little faith in that right now.

If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between our teams then the first step is to send us feudalism.

donsig of Kazakhstan

@ Sommers: The purpose of the first paragraph is to ensure Saturn knows you were speaking for yourself and not our team. Any support for sending this version?

 

[Bolkonski]

How about starting with:

I take it that you realise that Sommersward was not acting in any official capacity on behalf of Kazakstan and the opinions he expressed were his own and not the general consensus. Nonetheless he raises some interesting issues.

Also, the point we need to make quite clear is the deal breaker is Feudalism. If they are not willing to honour their commitments after we gave them techs up front it is pointless trying to discuss anything further. So I would end:

If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between us then without doubt you must understand that the first step will be to honour your previous commitment and send us Feudalism.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I have many issues with Donsig's proposed note. Also, as no one has expressed support for Donsig's note and damnrunner has expressed support for mine, I would say that my note should be the starting point. This note combines my two proposed notes.

Dear Lord Parkin of Saturn:

We need to re-establish trust between our teams, so that we can rely on your word. If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between our teams then the first step is to send us Feudalism. We can also integrate the other steps of your proposal into a new agreement between us.

You are correct in thinking there are trust issues between us, the greatest being that your team has not yet followed through with our prior tech trade deal. It did not help to foster good relations between us when you traded feudalism to SANCTA. We now are concerned that techs we trade to you will be forwarded to SANCTA. We see no way of guaranteeing you will not pass on our secrets to our enemy, other than the word of your team. Being able to trust each other is the most important step in creating a path to friendship. We have to be able to trust your word.

We are greatly dismayed at your apparent decision to ally yourselves to SANCTA. We had high hopes for a lasting partnership with you. We also apologize for not including you fully in our co-operation with Cavalieros, and understand fully how this may have disturbed you. You are correct that we have been engaged in tech trades with Cavalieros and Mad Scientists.

We wish to salvage the possibility of a relationship with you. Would you consider joining us, Cavalieros, and Mad Scientists in a four team tech sharing partnership? We would include you fully in the same relationship that we have with Cavalieros and Mad Scientists, which would be an immediate boost to your tech. Of course this would mean you would have to cut off all ties to SANCTA. Are you interested in such a partnership? If so, the first step in the multi-step process you suggest, would be for you to send Feudalism. We have proven ourselves trustworthy in our past dealings with you. Are you willing to reciprocate by showing a degree of trust to us?

Sommerswerd of Kazakhstan

As I have already said, I think Lord Parkin, DMOC, and Plako are all experienced enough to know that our OFFICIAL team-position is what we send through OFFICIAL email channels. Donsig's insistence on mentioning me, is just an attempt to punish me, and discredit me to the other team, and serves no other real purpose. I can not agree to this.

Also, the whole focus of Donsig's note seems a little mis-guided. The focus of the note should be to sweet talk Saturn into giving us Feudalism. The note should begin and end with this focus in mind. Donsig's note seems to focus on:
1. Punish Sommers,
2. Try to hide the alliance
3. Lie to Saturn (by telling them they are wrong but we wont tell them how)
4. Insult Saturn (by accusing them of making stategic errors)
5. Accusing Saturn of being untrustworthy (ironic since your proposed note lies about the alliance outright)
6. Guilt-tripping Saturn (utterly pointless, they know we paid up front wee don't need to remind them)
7. Being antagonistic (by Talking about "obstacles" to friendship rather than paths to friendship)
8. Reminding Saturn that we don't trust them (also unnecessarily antagonistic)

Only after engaging in all this endless griping and bridge burning, does Donsig's note actually get to the point, ie "send us Feudalism." Why would they want to send us anything after listening to all that whining and complaining? This note is all wrong, the tone is wrong, the focus is wrong, the language is wrong, the note should be scrapped.

Can folks not see that the cat-is-out-of-the-bag on our alliance? There is utterly no point in trying to hide it or deny it. Trying to deny it just makes us look untrustworthy. In fact, that is Saturn's only potential complaint against us... That we were dishonest to hide the alliance and not invite them to join. That is why starting our note with a "You can't trust Sommers" statement is just foolish. All it will do is reinforce the thought that we Kazakh's can't be trusted, and drive home the idea that "ONLY Sommers wanted to make friends, the rest of us DID NOT." Why tip our hand that way?

At any rate, I would not be in favor of any language in the note that refers to me that is not gender-neutral. I am very sensitive about this issue (as many of our team already know). I have had problems with this in the past that I don't care to describe.

 

[Kaleb]

I don't fully agree with the way Sommers conducted the chat but I don't think we need to beat him it up in our post to Saturn.

It will be clear from the content of the note and the tone that it's not 100% in-line with what Sommers said.

We're missing this out of both proposed notes and I can't see Saturn agreeing to any trade without it: If they give us Feudalism we agree not to give it to another civ for X number of turns, and they agree to do the same with any techs we give them.

If they give us Feudalism then we need to give them something back as they already have Maths. I would suggest a non-military tech, perhaps Aesthetics?

And donsig is that really your signature? Do we really want to hang out our dirty laundry in public? If so how about this: "there no "I" in team, but there is "me" in Sommerswerd"

 

[Sommerswerd]

I've got same question, what are your thoughts on this Sommers?

The question was, "What happens when Saturn is destroyed and there is just an alliance of four left"... Right?

To me, that seems obvious. We dump MS right? Isn't that what we have been planning to do all along? The three "permanent" allies go after MS. After that, Cavalieros will still be ahead in score, and we will be "best-buddies" with Saturn, the ones who brought them into the alliance. See how this is panning out? What is wrong with that scenario? We will be in position at the end to pick which one of our permanent allies we want to side with, based on their game-long performance towards us.

 

[Kaleb]

And after MS are "dumped" - what then?

 

[Sommerswerd]

And after MS are "dumped" - what then?

Then the 3 permanent allies go after MS...MS is elimminated. Then Kaz gets to choose who we want to side with, based on the in-game / out-of-game situation.

 

[Kaleb]

yeah, I got that bit - but what's that likely to mean?

A) Cav+Sat go after us = we are dead
B) Cav+Kaz go after Sat = easy pickings surely
C) Kaz+Sat go after Cav = but then wouldn't we be better off with MS who seem more developed?

 

[Indiansmoke]

I would not agree on giving any tech to Saturn as I know they will give it to Sancta..it is silly of us in the first place to believe that Saturn would give us Feudalism for math (what for???) and it is getting even sillier to try and "sweettalk them" like they are a girl at a bar we are trying to do an one night stand.

We either get a commitment from the other 2 teams to go on a fully fledged 4 team alliance (which I am OK with), or we stop bullhorsehockying them and doing pointless discussions.

 

[donsig]

it is silly of us in the first place to believe that Saturn would give us Feudalism for math (what for???)

The deal included more than math. We gave them iron working and alphabet already and they only gave us archery. The math for feudalism deal was supposed to bring the beakers back into a closer balance. We would have come out 10 ahead but we '"paid" for that by giving some tech up front. It was a fair deal and we were not silly to think they would live up to their part of the bargain.

I must insist that we include an explicit notice in our message that Sommerswerd does not speak for our team. If everyone on Saturn already knows this then it shouldn't hurt for us to come right out and say it, right? If the team does not agree to include such an explicit notice then I guess I can just start having my own private chats with other teams and send out some private messages so I can be sure these other teams hear what I have to say. Maybe if we all have our own individual chats with the other teams one of them will sort out what our majority position is and get back to us on it.

What's missing from this whole fiasco is a team discussion on whether we want to ally with Saturn. I wouldn't give them any techs, not even non-military techs. Why give them aesthetics and put them (and maybe SANCTA) that much closer to music? And I am not at all convinced that Saturn would be a better ally then the Mad Ones.

Here is my revised preoposal which uses Bolkonski's suggestions:

Hello Lord Parkin,

I take it that you realise that Sommersward was not acting in any official capacity on behalf of Kazakstan and the opinions he expressed were his own and not the general consensus. Nonetheless he raises some interesting issues.

Your reading of the wider geo-political situation described in your previous message is wrong, but we won't explain where or how it's wrong. Suffice to say that hopefully it's not your biggest strategic error of the game! You're not on our hit list, and we traded with MS and Cav more than you for the simple reason that we had contact with them before we had contact with you.

You are correct in thinking there are trust issues between us, the greatest being that your team proved untrustworthy regarding a tech trade that we partially paid for up front. It did not help to foster good relations between us when you traded feudalism to SANCTA. Surely your team realizes they have attacked us. Frankly, the biggest obstacle to friendship between Kazakhstan and Saturn is our fear that any techs we trade to you will be forwarded to the ninjas at SANCTA. We see no way of guaranteeing you will not pass on our secrets to our enemy, other than the word of your team and I'm sure you can understand we have little faith in that right now.

If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between us then without doubt you must understand that the first step will be to honour your previous commitment and send us Feudalism.

donsig of Kazakhstan

@Kaleb: Do we really want to agree not to pass feudalism on for X turns? Why jeopardize our good relations with Team Cav and MS just to get a tech our alliance can research anyway? Oh, and that's a great signature suggestion. I might use it.

@Sommers: The point of my proposed message is to bring our diplomacy back under team control. I, personally, would not mind you talking to other teams if you posted the chat logs so we'd know what you're telling them. Since you refuse to fully disclose what you're saying to them we really have no choice but to make it perfectly clear that you do not speak for the team. If we were privy to what you've told them we would not have to do this since we'd be able to correct or clarify anything you said that the team doesn't agree on. This wouldn't even have to be done with an official team email - we could just ask you to handle it next time you chatted. Your refusal to post your chat logs polarizes this issue just as your insistence on automatically polling certain issues polarized polling within our forums. I am not against polls or chats as they are both necessary in this game. I am against bad polls and bad chatting since either can ruin the fun of the game.

Should we post a poll to determine which of the two proposed notes should be sent to Saturn? In addition to the Sommerswerd and donsig versions I'd include an option to say nothing to Saturn. Anyone else want to put forth another version for consideration in a poll?

 

[Kaleb]

@Kaleb: Do we really want to agree not to pass feudalism on for X turns? Why jeopardize our good relations with Team Cav and MS just to get a tech our alliance can research anyway? Oh, and that's a great signature suggestion. I might use it.

We can't make this offer without first checking with Cav and MS to see they are ok with it.

I can't see Saturn just giving us Feudalism a) for nothing and b) without a guarantee we won't pass it on for free to Cav and MS. Asking them to do so is a waste of time.

I got an interesting message from King Morgan:

Kaleb,

Donsig mentioned to Niklas that Kaz would be keen to bring saturn into the allience.

Is this correct and do you think they will seriously consider it? Also do they not owe you beakers from the Alpha trade that went wrong?

I'd be keen to be involved with the negocations if you wanted or needed some assistance.

i had an IM with Memphus - he predicted MS would invade saturn within 20 turns - not sure what he is up to - blowing smoke i expect.

Morgan