Scenario: 1940AD on GEM

[Genghis_Kai]

Whether or not invading Russia is the biggest or the second biggest mistake, I think we all agreed it is a big mistake, right?

So come back to what we were discussing, I guess putting just 2 anti-tanks in Russia to start with (Russia can pump out 10s of anti-tanks in a few turns anyway) wouldn't make much difference, except to give a bit of discouragement for a human German player to not attempt a really early attack on Russia (I meant the first turn or second). This is what I wanted to avoid.

 

[Agent327]

Makes sense. (Although the bulk of the Russian army in Europe should be on that border; this is why most of it was lost on the first week.)

 

[Genghis_Kai]

Makes sense. (Although the bulk of the Russian army in Europe should be on that border; this is why most of it was lost on the first week.)

Ah, thats interesting. So in the scenario, would moving more of Russian's unit closer to the border actually ease German's invasion or not?

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Yes.

To understand the situation you must understand two things:

the Ribbentrop-Molotow Pact and the Soviet Officer Cleansing

The Ribbentrop-Molotow Pact was a result of two failed alliance constructions: France and Britain failed to get USSR in their boat, and Germany failed to get Poland and several east-european countries in their boat.

So two completely unlikely partners made a deal: Germany and USSR. As a result when Germany invaded western Poland in late 1939, USSR did so with the western part. This is the main reason why large contingents of the red army where still at the german border in 1942. They where needed for "pacification". The Ribbentrop-Molotow Pact was only broken in 1942 when Germany initiated operation barbarossa -> the invasion of the USSR. Though some historians consider it also likely that Stalin was only waiting for a sign of weakness from the Germans which would allow him to attack the other way around.

The second fact is the "cleansing" of the red army. Stalin had secured its power by killing all Trozkists and other "counterrevolutionary" elements (basically anyone not stalinist enough) during the 20s. With his power secured Stalin started a strong drive to modernise the red army in the early to middle 30s, with german "Militärberater" as very valuable help. Many very good officers managed to form elite troops at that time, and the red army of that time would have been a worthy enemy for the german troops. But: Stalin was afraid of the growing power of that military leaders. Between 1937 and 1939 the NKWD arrested three of the five marshalls (Tuchatschewski, Blücher, Jegorow), thirteen of fifteen army commanders, and almost everyone of the upper officer ranks below that (polit commisars...). Over 90% of the experienced strategic officers where killed in those two years ... and even after that fear was widespread. Even in 1945 the two leading marshalls that where leading the red army towards Berlin had to be as afraid of being too successfull then of being not successfull enough.

The reason why Finland could survive in the winter war, and why the red army was such a pushover was: it was lacking heads.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

I know the history too I was questioning whether "in the scenario", we should put more units closer to the border. It could be true too that more units concentrated on the border would be easier to destroy by Blitzkrieg.

On the historical aspect, I don't think Russia was should of heads. I think it was 1:4. It was tactics and like you mention, lack of experienced commanders that leds to Finland's survival in the winter war.

 

[knigh+]

The problem with that (concentrating russian forces to the border) would be that civ has no supply mechanics. In the actual war Eastern front saw lots of encirclement and defeat of supplyless units. That tactic will not work in civ. So you'll have to be careful about balancing this.

I guess lack of experienced commanders can be simulated by promotionless units.

 

[Agent327]

I know the history too I was questioning whether "in the scenario", we should put more units closer to the border. It could be true too that more units concentrated on the border would be easier to destroy by Blitzkrieg.

On the historical aspect, I don't think Russia was should of heads. I think it was 1:4. It was tactics and like you mention, lack of experienced commanders that leds to Finland's survival in the winter war.

I gathered that (you meaning "in the scenario"). Logically having the bulk of Russia's European at the Eastern border should work as a deterrent (lots of units to plough through). Tactically it's an advantage for the attacker (military advisors wanted a defense further east, but Stalin was opposed to it - which explains his total disbelief and disappearance from the public eye for a week following the invasion), as most of these units were undertrained and had outdated equipment and were facing veteran units with better equipment (both of which can be simulated in-game). Anyway, it seems worth a try.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

The undertrained aspect can be simulated by less/no promotions which is already implemented in the scenario. The outdated equipment aspect is however quite difficult to simulate because we only have two choices - Rifleman and Infantry.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

The balance of the scenario is updated. I am quite satisfied with it now

Research

Spoiler :

The two numbers are: Research turn for Rocketry @100% and @+ve profit.
The first value indicates the limits while the second value is more realistic and the list sorted according to it.

Nation @100% @+ve profit
America 11 12
Britain 11 20
Russia 16 24
Germany 27 27
Japan 22 30
France 17 33
Italy 42 42
Australia 34 42
Canada 31 44
Brazil 36 44
Nationalist China 37 45
Netherlands 30 49
Mexico 62 69
Portugal 49 70
South Africa 71 71
Argentina 69 76
Spain 72 79
Norway 63 79
Peru 75 83
Hungary 86 95
Turkey 86 96
Greece 86 96
Sweden 89 98
Finland 97 108
Colombia 100 112
Chile 110 122
New Zealand 112 124
Egypt 120 133
Iran 137 137
Communist China 114 143
Iraq 146 146
Thailand 133 148
Manchuria 148 183
Saudi Arabia 211 211
Nepal 244 244
Mongolia 370 370

Production

Spoiler :

Nation Million Tons
America 1217
Russia 1198
Britain 1040
Germany 741
France 649
Japan 622
Australia 349
Canada 345
Netherlands 332
Italy 322
Nationalist China 314
Brazil 307
Spain 188
Mexico 187
Argentina 164
Communist China 152
South Africa 145
Hungary 139
Portugal 128
Colombia 124
Iran 117
Turkey 116
Sweden 113
Peru 107
Chile 101
Egypt 92
Norway 91
Greece 84
Finland 77
New Zealand 73
Iraq 72
Manchuria 66
Thailand 55
Mongolia 51
Saudi Arabia 41
Nepal 33

Land

Spoiler :

Nation 1,000 Sq. km
Russia 1057
Britain 540
America 493
France 453
Canada 394
Australia 277
Nationalist China 251
Brazil 202
Netherlands 195
Japan 177
Communist China 141
Mexico 117
Italy 108
Iran 97
Peru 94
Germany 91
Saudi Arabia 89
Egypt 84
Manchuria 82
Nepal 82
Mongolia 80
Portugal 74
Norway 74
Argentina 71
South Africa 64
Colombia 62
Turkey 58
Finland 58
Sweden 53
Chile 52
Iraq 46
Spain 43
Hungary 36
Thailand 36
New Zealand 28
Greece 16

Population

Spoiler :

Nation Million
America 28.94
Britain 28.06
Japan 27.97
Russia 20.65
Germany 14.87
France 10.59
Italy 5.80
Nationalist China 5.51
Brazil 5.16
Canada 4.28
Netherlands 3.84
Australia 3.61
Argentina 3.52
Spain 3.02
Hungary 2.86
Mexico 2.81
Manchuria 2.45
Egypt 2.41
Iran 1.72
Portugal 1.72
Greece 1.60
Turkey 1.47
Norway 1.37
South Africa 1.30
Peru 1.16
Sweden 1.14
Chile 1.14
Communist China 1.12
Colombia 0.97
Thailand 0.96
Finland 0.83
Iraq 0.65
New Zealand 0.57
Nepal 0.33
Saudi Arabia 0.21
Mongolia 0.11

Military

Spoiler :

Measure the total number of Army, Naval and Air units

Nation Units
Britain 155
Russia 145
France 137
Germany 134
Japan 130
America 100
Italy 96
Nationalist China 81
Netherlands 45
Communist China 38
Hungary 35
Sweden 24
Spain 21
Turkey 20
Australia 19
Greece 17
Canada 17
Brazil 17
Finland 15
Portugal 13
Argentina 12
Iran 9
Mexico 9
Thailand 8
Norway 8
New Zealand 8
Nepal 7
Colombia 7
Peru 7
Manchuria 6
South Africa 6
Saudi Arabia 5
Iraq 5
Mongolia 5
Chile 5
Egypt 4

 

[Agent327]

The undertrained aspect can be simulated by less/no promotions which is already implemented in the scenario. The outdated equipment aspect is however quite difficult to simulate because we only have two choices - Rifleman and Infantry.

Well, I meant material equipment (tanks, planes, artillery). BTW, good job on the update.

 

[Adhesive86]

I've been playing 1.3 for a little while (I'm up to about 1948 as I remember) as Greece as I was game for a challenge and it's been going surprisingly well.

Absolutely vital is getting hold of oil for the obvious units it provides so I was able to buy imports from UK by dropping my science slider down to 0 (it was taking a ridiculoous amount of turns to get to rocketry anyhow). I'll be keen to try the saem tactic with Finland and see if I can beat the Russians.

Anyway, Hungary were pretty easy to repel and for the first few turns luckily Germany were busy attacking the someone else presumably as their panzers and my lack of anti tanks would have been a problem.

Anyway Italy didn't defend its cities very wella nd I was able to take Tirana relatively easily with a few tanks and artillery/ fighters. The very next turn though I was lucky to hold onto Tirana as all the European axis plowed tanks and infantry into the city. Truth be told if playing against humans there would have been a pretty big opportunity to role all over Greece as i'd lost half my built up army taking that city, but I gambled i'd be able to hold off the AI and i did.. just.

Once i'd reinforced northern Greece with enough anti tanks especially I managed to capture Italy's North African oilfields, using Malta as a stop off to avoid having to take on the Italian navy. Italy's lack of promotions meant I really fancied seeing how easily I could take them so I paid Germany/ Hungary off with what was basically a turns worth of income (i was no longer paying for oil as I now had my own) and planned to build a force to take Rome and the religion centre bonus with it.

But first I was presented with an opportunity to have Egypt declare war on me (marriage insult random event) which I did and I got 3 cities off of them including Cairo before making peace.

I was now getting confident and whilst maintaining good relations with the nations that could potentially flatten me (Uk, Russia, maybe Germany) planned to take Italy. France had the same idea, but I got to Rome first and although they took 2 cities I got the rest on the mainland. With Germany out of the war this was pretty easy.

I then looked at what else I could get away with taking without running into 'you declared war on our friend' problems with some of my now far technologically advanced allies and took all of Arabia (and religion centre) and Iraq. My city growth of conquered territories is a bit poor though as alot of the tiles are swallowed up by neighbours culture, especially Britain who I can't really declare war on... yet.

So next plan is to take Turkey, who don't like Greece and then move on Hungary and Germany. My forces stilla ren't anywhere near the big powers but by growing out from the centre and not venturing too far (ie Iran) I hope to be able to move towards a point where I can then take on the big powers, before America wins a diplo victory (I disabled adding vassals so this didn't happen too soon and also took off space race as i knew i'd have no chance and don't like this condition anyway). Luckily th UN has also signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty as I'm a long way away from being able to use nukes.

So feedback... 1) i like the use of promotions for the status quo, this is a really good tool to use and represents troop and equipment quality really well. Do you also place military academies and resident great generals etc to boost military production?

2) I'm British, but on the whole i think Britian is too strong, fighting USA at the top of the leaderboard. This isn't really representative and I see you've addressed this in you removal of commonwealth vassals for 1.4.

3) I'd like to see it slightly easier to research technology for smaller nations as the time it takes otherwise is pretty inaccurate; technology transfer occurs much quicker than this. Ways of doing this would I guess include increasing city maintainance costs and reducing research costs in tandem, or allowing spies to easily take technologies. I don't pretend to have the exact answer but this could definitely be an area for development.

4) I like all the developments for 1.4 apart from Switzerland to Sweden as although I see why you've done it it jsut seems so inconsistent with your otherwise fantastic attention to realism and reality (place names in 200bc for instance).

5) I've mentioned it before, but how cool would this mod or a 2008 version be with double or more the amount of civs and no minor nations? If possible this would be awesome.

Anyway, thanks for a great mod and a great game for me to play. Of course as i've said to Ace should you guys ever want any help with research for anything I'd be happy to help.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

4) I like all the developments for 1.4 apart from Switzerland to Sweden as although I see why you've done it it jsut seems so inconsistent with your otherwise fantastic attention to realism and reality (place names in 200bc for instance).

Well, although I agree this is losing some reality, it actually isn't that inconsistent - Norway and Denmark is combined; Finland and Baltic nations are combined; Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are combined in the same scenario. May be the only inconsistency here is that the two civ combining are actually not neighboring.

I struggled too, at first, but decided that this is probably the best solution to divert the Axis forces away from Switzerland.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

Guys. I just like to share with you all GEM lovers, history buffs, that I have found a treasure today!

Well, it is a book The title of the book is called "The economics of world war II, Six great powers in international comparison", edited by Mark Harrison, published by Cambridge U.

As the title suggest, the book gives lots of economical figures comparing different great powers during the world war II, which is nothing new. The reason why I said it is a treasure is that, unlike most books focused only on the Great powers (sometimes even just give Allies vs Axis figures), this book even includes GDP for places like UK dominions, UK colonies, French colonies, China, Norway, Switzerland and South America for comparison! This is something I've been searching for since day one building this scenario.

Now that I've got this book, I will give a try to make the scenario simulate more closely to the reality.

 

[Halt]

Great find!

 

[sgrig]

For anyone who is interested, quite a large chunk of this book is available as preview on Google Books:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZgFu2p5uogwC

 

[Genghis_Kai]

For anyone who is interested, quite a large chunk of this book is available as preview on Google Books:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZgFu2p5uogwC

Yeah, I found it on the web first, then I rush to the Library to get hold of the book.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

I am going to push this scenario's setting 3 months earlier. So the game would start at the very beginning of the war. Poland still exist (just as a minor nation) and less Chinese cities got conquered.

The military balance would be adjusted as follow:
Germany: The forces will mostly distributed on the eastern border to Poland.
Italy: Reduced in strength. Not at war with the Allies yet.
Japan: Concentrated at Central China and southern coastal China.
Russia: At war with Japan.
France: Reduced in strength.
Netherlands: Reduced in strength.
Britain: Reduced in strength. No forces landed in France yet.
America: Reduced in strength.

 

[knigh+]

I think this will hurt Axis AI more, due to its reluctance to attack.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

I think this will hurt Axis AI more, due to its reluctance to attack.

I don't know. May be. But I think AI is better to fight with less enemies at the same time. The new setting is that Germany with not be at war with Norway and Netherlands. Italy will not be at war with any one.

I will try and if the AI really is not doing anything, I can revert it back.

 

[Adhesive86]

Well, although I agree this is losing some reality, it actually isn't that inconsistent - Norway and Denmark is combined; Finland and Baltic nations are combined; Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are combined in the same scenario. May be the only inconsistency here is that the two civ combining are actually not neighboring.

I struggled too, at first, but decided that this is probably the best solution to divert the Axis forces away from Switzerland.

Yeah, fair enough. You make a good point regarding the other combinations.

So any chance of a slightly bigger dll in upcoming versions for more civs? Or is this too much of a memory nightmare? I guess there's obviously a reason why you haven't done this...